courtnek Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 In my 30 years of raising and training dogs, I have NEVER seen this... Laurel is timid, afraid of my son and his friends, avoids them whenever possible. At night, I let her and Freebee sit on my bed and watch TV with me. When and ONLY when, she is on my bed, if any of his friends come by (and they have to, to get to the bathroom) she GROWLS!!! no teeth, not nasty, just a low warning growl. I dont understand her. If she is upstairs and she has to go past them, to eat or go outside, she is scared ****less..but when sitting with me on my bed, she is suddenly protective??? Any ideas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pei obssessed Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 maybe she associates the bed with a higher rank position? maybe she's protecting her alpha's den? :D and since you and freebee are there with her, she probably feels like she has protection... I'm just saying, I don't know really... but I should be working, I have a deadline to meet, so I suddenly feel like resonding even to posts that I have no idea about :lol: Hmmmm... maybe I should just go back to work :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy B Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 A growl doesn't always mean "protection". Fear can also trigger a growl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Just a wild guess, but maybe when she's on the floor, she feels vulnerable, so she chooses flight (or in this case just staying away) over standing her ground when son and friends are around. Then when she's on the bed, she feels "safer" and more ready to stand her ground and scare them off. Does she do this only when you/Freebee are there with her, or only when you're not, or whether you are or aren't? If she's usually only doing it when you and Freebee are there, then I'd say it could be too that she feels that you two are there to back her up, and that's why she's standing her ground and warning them off. I've seen this with Casey and Joey... neither has the **lls to ward off a perceived danger on their own, but if I take all three little dogs out together for a walk or something (or even just Casey and Joey, though it's less pronounced then), they are much more confident, and will willing engage a threat because they have the safety in numbers thing going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 [quote]A growl doesn't always mean "protection". Fear can also trigger a growl[/quote] it's not a fear growl, I thought of that. It's a warning growl. like "dont bother mom".... And Gooey, you may have hit it...she only does it when I am there.. Freebee doesnt need to be there, she likes to hang out with the kids, so even if it's just me and Laurel, she will growl... I just dont understand the "bravery" when with me, and the "fear" when I'm not there.....unless she thinks I will protect her...maybe that's it... she's protecting her alpha, but only when the alpha is present... otherwise she just stays away? I;m SOOO confused..I have never seen this before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midori115 Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 I don't pretend to understand either, but Oscar sleeps on the bed with me, and zack often works late, so by the time he gets home, Oscar and I are in bed. Naturally, Oscar will bark when he hears the door open, but then sometimes he runs downstairs to meet zack, and sometimes he sits up - right on top of me -- and growls when zack gets to the bedroom door. when I tell him to knock it off he does, and when zack tells him to stop being silly, he does. I think when he's startled, he reacts to protect me ... I don't know, just sounded a little similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 :wink: courtnek, Laurel is a hound. Being scared ****less is not normal, she should be laid back and aloof. I will venture to guess that she was probably mistreated by a male (hunter probably) and when they broke her spirit she wasn't worth keeping. Hounds have gentle spirits which are fairly easy to break. Physical discipline is a BIG NO! NO!, they respond a lot better to just being made to feel bad, a firm scolding. The difference in her personality is evidence that she simply does not trust men and has bonded with you. She feels safe in your presence and KNOWS that you will "Back Her Up" if she needs help. You got a sweety Courtnek, she loves you and is now willing to protect you from the BIG, BAD MEN! :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Thanks Rosebud - she is a sweety, and does love me (and Freebee) unconditionally. If she's outside and I come out she does this screaming run over to me, then bruises me with that whiplash tail of hers....lol I do want her to somehow get over being afraid of Kyle though. She is less afraid of him then she was, but she's still afraid...I really dont care if she doesnt like his friendsl I'm not fond of some of them...maybe that's projecting to her somehow.... but thanks. She is a sweetie.... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 It took me along time to get my my oldest Newfoundland Cassie used to men....I'm talking along long time! :wink: she was never abused by a man....never...I know her breeder and I have looked after her since she was a pup at my friends kennel..my friend is married and her husband was around the pups - and he never abused them either.... she had been a complete kennel dog before I took her in, she was also a show dog and stacked and examined by many many men with no fear...but, put her in an unfamiliar environment-my home, bring in all kinds of new things including fridges, ceramic flooring (it took me 2 years before she would walk on a ceramic or tile floor) all these new things can make a submissive dog very fearful...I did not try to rush her. Ask your son to perhaps be a little less active around her and perhaps take Laurel and your son for a walk together in the woods etc. perhaps by being in an environment that she has things to explore and sniff she will start to associate your son with some one who tags along with mom on good hikes...try to get her and your son into situations of play time etc. of course don't force her...but, find places Laurel is comfortable and less stressed out...it takes time. I also do not believe my newest young male Gil, has ever been abused by a bag of dog food, or a falling twig etc. when a dog has not been brought up in a home environment...every thing can seem scary...build the dogs confidence etc. As for the growling when she is in your room...that is very very normal. I have seen my little Gil (165lb Newfoundland dog) out on a walk and a twig falls from a tree....his tail goes in between his legs, ears laid back on his head and he high tails it back to me and my personal space..once there he gains a little courage and turns around to the area the brance fell and gives a menacing growl :lol: safety in numbers! I also see this type of behavior with alot of our clients at the grooming facility...when they bring their dogs in the dog is sitting there growling at us...the owner usually leans over and says softly...dont worry, these people are going to make you beautiful....to the dog she is say...you go ahead and growl, if they get any closer you go ahead and bite them! we usually explain to our customers that by talking softly to their dog while it is growling at another person they are encouraging it to become a fear biter. Good luck with Laurel..she needs time, patience and confidence building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 [quote name='courtnek']Thanks Rosebud - she is a sweety, and does love me (and Freebee) unconditionally. If she's outside and I come out she does this screaming run over to me, [color=red]then bruises me with that whiplash tail of hers....lol[/color] I do want her to somehow get over being afraid of Kyle though. She is less afraid of him then she was, but she's still afraid...I really dont care if she doesnt like his friendsl I'm not fond of some of them...maybe that's projecting to her somehow.... but thanks. She is a sweetie.... :D[/quote] I keep a bruise on the back of my left knee that looks like a dog tail. They can really put some force behind that thing. Good luck, Court. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I wanted to add...I know I'm long winded! :lol: I was reading an article in my Sept/03 issue of the whole dog journal...they have an article on calmative herbs which can take the edge off your dogs panic attacks....for example fear of thunder storms, fear of crowds, fear of vet visits or grooming visits, fear of company...they suggest: [b]Oat (flowering tops of Avena Sativa)[/b] which are an excellent nervous system tonic for aging or debilitated animals which safely optimizes nervous system functions while stablilizing the highs and lows between nervousness and mental lethargy. [b]Passionflower (passiflora incarnata)[/b] is a wonderful choice for fear-biters and other dogs who take on aggressive behavior during stressful situations. It is indicated where valerian is not-for hot tempered animals or rare instances where valerian has a reverse, stimulant effect. Passionflower is an excellent choice for taking a bit of the nervous edge off of jealous types etc. [b]Skullcap (scutellaria laterifolia)[/b] which acts to moderate an amimals responsiveness to physical or non-physical stimuli, and helps alleviate general restlessness and nervous twitching. This makes it very useful in high-strung felines who are recovering from a frightful experience, but, who need all of their survival mechanisms intact during their daily outdoor adventures. I would say passionflower may help you in your situation...they recommend feeding the remedy to your companion 20 minutes to an hour before he will be exposed to his stress triggers. Good luck, and don't feel as though you are alone with this and your dog is acting unusual...it is very normal for a fearful dog to act this way...I have seen from the same kennel where I adopted my dogs from...some of the dominant dogs brought up in the same environment of kennel life fit in fine with a new home...never nervous of any thing...they are bolder in personality and take every thing new with curiosity rather than fear...I have one male at home right now, my little Gil who is fearful of every thing, but, is an excellent show dog..and my other bolder, dominant male Dil...now, Dil is dominant and fit in fine with my house hold...never fearful of any thing...he took every thing in stride...they are just displaying 2 seperate personalities and one of them is submissive the other dominant...both brought up in the exact same kennel...never treated any differently than the other...and I brought them both home to live with me when they were about 2 years of age...they both have different attitudes and ways to look at the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 The Guest was me Cassie...guess I forgot to log in. :oops: :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 thanks alot everybody. The trigger here appears to be the kennel life... and the fact that she is submissive. She has taking to baying at people that walk past the door now....*sigh* I am not telling her softly to stop, at least I know better than that. I am not hitting her either (I dont believe in that anyway) but I am keeping her on a short lead and MAKING her lie down with a stern tone when she starts up....then she gets petted for laying down properly when she does. I guess we'll just see how it goes. I think Kyle is feeling a little resentful that "she doesnt like him" and has taken an attitude of "so what?" its sooo hard sometimes to be a teenager.... I am teaching her the term "chill" which Freebee already knows; it basically means SHUT UP and slowly she;ll get it.... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 OK I'm happy.."chill" and a hand on her muzzle to make her obey (she lays down when I yell CHILL and take her muzzle in my hand) seems to be controlling her... she is less aggressive (for a TIMID dog?) when I keep her in line.... things seem to be working out... I still think she is trying to manipulate me... :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 [quote]I am keeping her on a short lead[/quote] Be careful doing this. It's generally advised (you may already know this) to not shorten your dog's lead when you see a situation they might react to, as your pulling them in communicates to them that you are afraid and are trying to "huddle" for protection.... which in turn makes them feel they need to get rid of the threat for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowie-the-Pooh Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 [quote name='gooeydog'][quote]I am keeping her on a short lead[/quote] Be careful doing this. It's generally advised (you may already know this) to not shorten your dog's lead when you see a situation they might react to, as your pulling them in communicates to them that you are afraid and are trying to "huddle" for protection.... which in turn makes them feel they need to get rid of the threat for you.[/quote] Wow, I never knew that! You learn something new everyday... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Dogs react to our body language....big time! This is how I have made it through 20 years plus working directly with dogs with out being biten....knowing how to act when around "certain" dogs, beleive me its not due to the owners being expert dog owners or the dogs not having it in them to bite a human...ALL dogs have the potential to bite a human in the right circumstance....fear being number one. Courtnek, you will find with your submissive little girl that she will tend to be a velcro dog for the remainder of her life...at least if she is any thing like my Newf's which are from the kennel and submissive to boot. I rotate taking my dogs to work with me (can't take all 5 at once.. :lol: ) my oldest girl who is the fearful one and my youngest fearful male have been my best work companions...they stick to me like glue...the socialization has also been fantastic for them...now, they will run up and greet most customers...there are still a few which really freak them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 30, 2003 Author Share Posted October 30, 2003 thanks everyone. she is a velcro dog, but she seems more comfortable on the lead then off of it. She doesnt like for anyone to reach for her collar, while she doesnt threaten she does shy away....I wish I knew what life in the kennel had been like..... thanks for all the tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 I don't know about life at Laurel's kennel...but, I can tell you exactly what my dogs life at the kennel was like! :lol: Life in the kennel is routine...get fed in the morning usually by the same person...they may give the demanding dogs a little pat...it is impossible to give each dog indivdual attention...the ones which get the attention are the ones who go get it them selves...the kennel attendant walks in to pooper scoop and feed....the dominant dogs are the ones who force their way over to the person and demand to be made of...usually by jumping or standing in front of the person...the person is in a hurry, but, will give the dog a pat and go about their job or duty...the shy or submissive dogs are usually back in a corner ignored by all and too shy to demand any attention....then on the weekends its "show time" some of the dogs are taken out and bathed and brushed and blown dry...this is serious business...so there is no cuddling or talking to the dog....they are then put in a crate and loaded into the van to go to the show...at the show they are put into another crate, taken out brushed and tidied up and then its off to run around an ring...the dog stands still waiting for its treat (bait) and strangers come over and feel it all over and look at its teeth etc. then back from the ring, back into the crate, back in the van...then back to the kennel where the same life takes over from there. Every thing is the same...they see nothing like fridges, stoves....lakes, ocean...teenagers... :lol: nobody really talks to them or gives them one on one attention...they are well looked after as far as health care, and food...and Vet care and they are very well looked after hygenically also...but, there is no one to cuddle with or to sit down and talk with them...even as puppies, I have seen some pups which are only 3 months old which are fearful of most people besides the kennel hand and owner of the kennel... Then they come to live in a home...they are already past puberty and perhaps the fear stage has set in...they have been on their own with only the other dogs for company for most of their lives....and any thing strange and unfamiliar can be scary. This is the life of alot of kennel dogs owned by reputable breeders...the only time a dog lives indoors is when it retires or when a bitch is whelping a litter...the rest of the dogs never get inside a house. so, to me....its no surprise that my dogs were fearful of every thing that moves...during their critical period of socialization they were with other dogs in the same environment daily...they were not subjected to new things. For the first few months of taking in my kennel dogs I couldn't even move any of my furniture as it would have them scared to death!!! a potted plant moved from the coffee table to an inn table would have them high tailing it back to the safety of my bed room. I just act normal and I never went back in to get them and force them to face up to what caused their fear...it will take time...and remember to take gooeydogs advise about pulling your dog up on a short lead and bringing Laurel closer into your personal space during a frightful experience...I tend to think about all those snappy little dogs people carry around which if you get to close the little dogs go balistic.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted October 30, 2003 Author Share Posted October 30, 2003 thanks Cassie - That explains alot because that was just what I was thinking happened. These dogs are field trialed, not show, and actually hunted. But the only human contact they ever had was with the kennel staff, and the hunt club...I was told there were 2- dogs in her pack, and that's a lot of animals to try to pay individual attention to. I think she may also have been the runt of a litter, because she's about 10- lbs smaller than your average female foxhound. I also think that because she has teeth marks (not deep bites, but scars from having been grazed) which tells me she was low down in the pack order and corrected more than once. Oh, and as far as the lead...I dont use it to pull her TO me, but rather to make her lie down without reaching for her collar. I am not afraid of her by any means, but she shies from being grabbed by the collar. She seems more comfortable on the lead. Part of the "chill" command is a short light tug on the lead (I have always used a lead to teach this) and a stern command to "LIE DOWN". The tug is just a reminder, not hard or dragging, just a little "umph" that I mean lie down right now. Once she has lied down, she gets petted and fussed over (same as I did with Freebee) and paid attention to. She is very smart, I was able to teach her "chill" in four attempts. It's a two handed command: one hand gives the short downward tug ont he collar, and the other does the hand motion for "lie down"...part of the chill command also means silence. Basically, lay down and shut up....lol....I have used it for years to get my dogs to stop barking when someone rings the door bell. I was surprised at how quickly she picked it up. By the end of last night she would let people walk by the door, only reacting by raising her head. and staring. If she started to make noise I would say "chill" and she would lay down and be quiet, still staring, but quiet... I know it's going to take time, and I am really impressed with how hard she is trying to please me. With all of her issues, she is a really good and loving dog. It's kinda cool having a velcro dog, cause Freebee is too independent and not a real lovey-dovey.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 :D [quote]I was surprised at how quickly she picked it up. [/quote] Some people will tell you that hounds are stupid, but the opposite is quite true, they learn with amazing speed, the problem is that if "they" don't want to do it, they won't. Stay on your toes, you may have to re-invent some of your training methods with her, remember all hounds are essentially 95% "food" hounds. Cassie, How can anyone say that they are breeding for the betterment of the breed if that is the life of a kennel show dog. I am so glad that Sally and Rocket lead very active lives. Weekends at the lake, Saturday play dates with other RR's, trips to dog shows, visit's with their brother at G'ma's house and now they get to go to the store on Sunday's while we clean. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Rosebud, your dogs are very lucky. Some hobby breeders tend to do the same as you do...they have only 1-2 dogs at a time and show them steady and then when they have their championship titles...which they all get sooner or later...then they either get their obedience titles or specialize the dog. For alot of "reputable breeders" the kennel life I explained earlier is the norm...I think its sad, but, it is very normal....I have many many friends who breed dogs from Shepherds to Collies to Great Pyrnees....and this is their life. Not all show dogs have it as good as your dogs do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 :lol: :lol: :lol: Lucky, they're absolutely positively spoiled rotten and I wouldn't have it any other way. [quote name='Cassie'][color=red]Rosebud, your dogs are very lucky[/color]. Some hobby breeders tend to do the same as you do...they have only 1-2 dogs at a time and show them steady and then when they have their championship titles...which they all get sooner or later...then they either get their obedience titles or specialize the dog. For alot of "reputable breeders" the kennel life I explained earlier is the norm...I think its sad, but, it is very normal....I have many many friends who breed dogs from Shepherds to Collies to Great Pyrnees....and this is their life. Not all show dogs have it as good as your dogs do...[/quote] :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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