Hello I...

[meehs]

Very good point Mary's Mamma and well said. Hollywood claims to be educated about the behavior of APBTs and aware of the possibility that they could become aggressive towards other dogs at the dog park and yet he continues to bring his dogs there.

Hollywood: If you really are as knowledgable about the breed as you say you are, then you must know that your dogs could do a LOT of damage to another dog before you have any chance of seperating them. Even if you are keeping a close eye on them! Not very responsible in my opinion considering that you've aknowledged the possiblility that your dogs have the potential to become aggressive.

[gooeydog]

This is part of the first post in this thread...
[quote]Just dropping a line to say my 2 RED NOSE PITBULLS are still doing well at the lease free park. They are about a year and 4 months now. No fighting no nothing. It's all about training.[/quote]

To me, it implies that because your two pups haven't gotten into a fight yet (and hey, they may never get into one if you're lucky), you think/thought that your training overrode any inborn desire they may (or may not) have to fight with other dogs. I just can't see someone who knows how quickly things can go from "good" to "bad" can still take their mature or maturing APBTs (or any bull breed) to the dogpark, saying "I'm careful" or "I watch them closely", or "they've been challenged, but I've trained them well, so they won't take up the offer". Have you ever seen or tried to break up a fight that involved a bull breed or two? All the training in the world will not be enough to stop them, because they won't even hear or see you.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am so surprised that i have not seen this thread before now. And i am have just read through all the posts. There are some real good posts from both sides on this one. I personally took Drey to the park once a week for the first 8 months of his life. he never showed me any signs of aggression. But now he is nearing to a year and i notice different things in his persona that I am chalking up to maturity. A little more wary of noises around the house, very alert to people walking up to the house Barking and just a general "dog" attitude less puppy. that was my sign that the dog park was no longer the place for use to go. See Hollywood no one knows your dogs like you do. I am not going to reiderate the rules of pit bull ownership I know you know that. But what i will say is this; Pit bulls are born fighters, they do not always have the mentality but they ALL have the ability. Your dogs are good natured and that is good but not everyone that goes to dog parks has a dog that is god natured. Now if some other dog was to rough up your dog, your dog will fight back, and in all likely hood unless you are very close and quick is going to hurt the other dog or even kill it depending on its size. Now your good natured dog has just had its first fight, and that taste of a roll is going to make your dog more likely to have a second roll because your dog now knows that it likes to fight.
Are you willing to take that chance?

[Guest Anonymous]

Hollywood, If you have done so much research then how do you not realize the danger you are putting the other dogs of the park in? How can you say you have trained them well enough not to fight when confronted? (Nit-pick... PIT BULL, with all the research how can you not spell it right?)
When one of the dogs turns on the other will probably follow. Then you will need to try to break two pits off someone elses dog. Do you own a breaking stick, know how to use it correctly and keep it with you? Your two may kill someone elses dog. Then your dogs will be put down and you may be sued. Is that worth it to you??!!
Us pit lovers might as well consider this to soon be chalked up as another stat against the pit. Humaniacs will love you.

[Guest Anonymous]

Marys mama and I went around on this one many times BUt i just had to add in there that her post is right on the money and was a major contributor to me changing my mind about taking Drey to the dog park.
We sometimes get so up on the fact that we want our dogs to be so good and be ambassadors for the breed, that we put them into..i hesitate to say "risky" situations, so they have the chance to prove us they are right. Well there is a chance that any dog will react contrary to to how they have a million times before and that is the case the winds up in the paper. that is the time that gets talked about in the news not the hundreds of times before when your dog was good. See? its a sticky thing owning pit bulls so much of it is beyond just regular dog stuff its not just knowing your dogs its other people dogs that you cant know that are the variable here. And as always hmmmmm nailed it if one of your dogs gets into a scuffle the other will definately be right there and then you really have a problem 2 pit bulls will make short work of any dog.

I determined that for me its just not worth the risk, and i can do just as much if not more for my breed by not going there.

just sit on it for a while...

[courtnek]

[quote]And as always hmmmmm nailed it if one of your dogs gets into a scuffle the other will definately be right there and then you really have a problem 2 pit bulls will make short work of any dog.
[/quote]

Thank you Rott, and Hmmmm...that was my entire point - yes, the dogs are good now, yes you can trust them - UNLESS some other dog (like mine, who is NOT friendly and is a Lab, and I would not her loose in a dog park) decides to challenge. Yes, Freebe is a Lab. Loves everyone, right?
NOT! Good with children, right! NOT!! Get's along well with other animals!
NOT!! NOT!!

These are the exceptions to every rule. Please let me explain. I am looking to adopt another dog. One of the ones that someone brought here was part Pit. He didnt like her, she didnt like him. Both were on leashes,
so nothing happened. Without leashes there would have been a fight.
Plain and simple. Pit's DO NOT like to be challenged, and Freebee will
NOT be demoted. WHat's to say that you wont run into a Freebee at the
the dog park, who will NOT be demoted by your Pits, and might start a fight? She would lose, most probably, but YOU would be blamed and your Pit's put down...yea, she started it, but the news WONT SEE IT THAT WAY.

It will be another story of 'VICIOUS PIT BULL ATTACK IN DOG PARK. VICIOUS PIT'S KILLED LAB....." which will get everybody's dander in a huff
because it was a Lab...Gentle family dog, good with children.

I KNOW my dogs shortcomings - most people with Labs dont. They arenht all angels, and they can be very dominant....which wont help them against
a dog bred to fight. and Pit's were bred to fight. I know you treat them kindly, train them well, and have socialized them. But a dog like Freebee would be enought to try any fighting dogs patience....she tries mine all the time.

[Malamum]

Hollywood,

Your dogs sound lovely and no one here is saying otherwise, nor is anyone putting them down. However this is a discussion forum and you can't start a topic and then basically say the only people allowed to reply are the ones who agree with you.

Again I don

[DogPaddle]

[quote]I KNOW my dogs shortcomings - most people with Labs dont. They arenht all angels, and they can be very dominant[/quote]

I will agree with you there Courtnek. Zaphod (mostly lab) is sweet and loves adult people but he the second he meets new dogs he wants to . . . "get things straight" . . . very dominent especially amongst dogs not of his pack.
I made the mistake of finding this out the hardway. Tyr and Kavik have always played off lead in the common green with the other neighbour dogs. Zaphod was just 4 months and I though he would be ok trailing his lead (first time out after shots.) The second Zaphod layed eyes on Bear (large male rottiex) his hackles went up and he charged him. Heaven knows how but I was able to catch the lead before he reached Bear - barely. Now I know better - Zaphod is always leashed (which does tend to make him more nervouse around strange dogs but - no option) while we work on his socialization. [color=red]The neighbours just see a cute Lab and despite his behaviour think I'm mean for letting Kavik play offlead but not Zaphod but I guess they miss the point.[/color] I don't take Zaphod to the offlead park here, he gets too agitated and barks and tries to menace other dogs (he is leashed) and there are too many off lead who would attack him for it. :x We have to socialize elsewhere. :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

It can be pretty hard to "see ahead" of a dog attack. Again, why take the chance? A pit can turn on in a heartbeat. He can go from the most funloving dog, to other dogs, then all of a sudden start going at it. There isnt always a "sign". And how many people do you think actually recognize the signs? Anyway, its a public, off leash dog park. Why should those with dogs that are not dog aggressive have to run away with their dogs??

Rott'N'Pitt- Good to see you have decided against the dog park!!

I really dont think Hollywoods dogs would mind too incredibly much if he quit taking them to the dag park. As long as they have him they wont even care.

[Mary's Mama]

RnP - Thanks for understanding my position, and offering support. Same to Hmmmm.


I will say to Scottie Lvr that at our park if a dog that I know is aggressive enters or a breed I am leary of enters I do leave. I have jacks and they will try every dogs patience so I dont take the chance.

Of all the dogs that have been banned from our dog park (on individual basis after 3 seperate incidences each) the breed we have the most trouble with is retired racing Greyhounds. Just something I found interesting. I have seen very few bully breeds in general, maybe that is a good sign there is fairly educated ownership in my area. I can only hope.

[Guest Anonymous]

If every Pitbull turns into an aggressive dog then how come they have one of the best temperaments of all breeds. How come they are used as therapy dogs????????????????

[Guest Anonymous]

No one here ever said that EVERY pit bull becomes an aggressive dog. We only said that since dog aggression is common in the breed, it's a distinct possibility that your pit bulls (or any pit bull) could act aggressivly towards another dog with little or no warning. This is true with APBTs and the other bully breeds moreso than with other breeds.

Also, dog aggression and a dog being able to perform therapy work aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Most bullys are inately [i][b]NOT[/b][/i] aggressive towards humans. In the early days of developing the breed, dogs that were aggressive towards people were ruthlessly culled. This trait was nearly as important as their gameness and dog agressivness. Handlers didn't want their fighting dogs attacking them when they were trying to seperate thier dogs. As a self-proclaimed expert on the breed, I would have expected you to know this Hollywood.

[Guest Anonymous]

Firstly I am glad that you are at least reading the posts and are continuing to post here. I was beginning to think that we were all talking to ourselves.

But as for your comment, they have phenominal temperments and are magnificent therapy dogs for HUMANS, this is the least likely of all breeds to bite a human when bred correctly with an even temperment.

But its not people that brought on this thread its other dogs and pit bulls are proned, not destined to fight other dogs. Like malamum said you may go your entire life and never see the slightest bit of aggression from your dogs, I wouldnt go betting the farm on it, but hey it could happen. Your dogs heritage is the pit, they are designed for it everything about the pit bull says fighter. the large head with immensely strong jaws, short tight fitting coat, the ability to ignore extreme pain, and an almost scary dedication to anything they start. People often say that i talk about the APBT like it is a monster or something. No, but You cannot overestimate these dogs, I have see the run faster, jump higher and demonstrate more power than I would have ever fathomed possible by a dog.

I believe its better to be to cautious than not cautious enough.
The bottom line is they are your dogs you can turn your computer off and go straight to the dog park if you want, the final decision rests with you. We are simply worried about you, we are like a family here, if you saw someone in your family doing something and you thought it could end in trouble you tell them, just so they wont have to endure any pain or suffering. Hollywood all of these posts that are making you mad are intended to do so, they all came from a good place, from not wanting anything bad for you, the boys, or the breed.

[meehs]

The above post by "Guest" was me. I forgot to log-in... AGAIN!

[Guest Anonymous]

APBTs are probably the only breed that has been bred to specifically dislike other dogs BUT love people. People aggressive APBTs are culled by any responsible APBT breeder/owner. (I know people might not want to hear this but...) They have been bred to love people for the fact that you cannot handle a people aggressive dog in the pit. If you have a people aggressive dog in the pit and he bites you, the judge or the other handler, you lose. As well as knowing the damage they can cause if they are willing to bite a person. Just cant have it.
Not all APBTs will fight another dog but you must be responsible enough to know it can, with high probability, happen. I had a 4xw male that could run around the other dogs and not touch them, as well as a champion bitch that could do the same. BUT I would still not trust them to run around other peoples dogs. I do not want my dogs to fight with other peoples dogs.[color=red] Do you not understand how painful it can be for someone to lose a dog?[/color] I dont want to put anyone through that, especially if I can help/stop it from happening.

Mary's Mamma... JRTs? They are like miniature APBTs. The only other breed I would ever own besides an APBT would be a JRT. They show a lot of heart, and will stand up to the biggest dogs (thinking of course, their little butt can take 'em!) Love their little big attitudes.

[Malamum]

Ok, Hollywood you seem to have one major misconception....... you seem to think that because we are saying APBT's are (or are more prone to be than other breeds) [size=6][u][b]DOG[/b][/u][/size] aggressive that we are saying they can't be loving family pets or therapy dogs etc.....

Please note the highlighting on the word DOG.... Just because an APBT (or any other breed for that matter) is dog aggressive does not mean it's a snarling vicious monster that has to be locked away. Aggression towards other dogs and aggression towards humans are two totally different things.

Anything with the word aggression seems to get people's back's up - maybe we should use the phrase "Don't play nice with other dogs" instead :wink:

[courtnek]

[quote]Anything with the word aggression seems to get people's back's up - maybe we should use the phrase "Don't play nice with other dogs" instead
_________________
[/quote]

Thank you. Hollywood, we here know that the Pit is a very people-orientated dog - for all the above reasons - but it was bred to fight. Not dogs, originally, but Bears, Bulls and Boars....Dog fighting became a
"sport" (God, I DREAD that thought) by macho morons who think fighting
is a fun thing to watch. You'll find the same breed of people in the ones
who stage cockfights. Let's let these poor birds rip each other to shreds, wont that be fun???

Pit's make EXCELLENT service dogs. Their loyalty and loving of people
is extraordinary. They are probably more people friendly (truly people friendly) than labs or goldens. Labs and goldens are for the most part
laid back and gentle....but not always, as is the case with my girl.

Yet you cant take the breeding out of them. Example: my girl is part
(we think) German Shorthaired Pointer...her physical body style and long
skinny legs give that away. She has never been trained to point, yet she does....all on her own, with no encouragement. That's something that
was bred into her over the centuries; I could no more make her stop doing
it than I could make her stop breathing voluntarily.

There are some things you cant train out - breeding heredity is one of them. We arent turning on you, as I said before, but just warning you
that it COULD happen. Doesnt mean it will, but the odds are too high to
risk it, and risk losing your guys because of it.

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...."

:)

[gooeydog]

[quote]If every Pitbull turns into an aggressive dog then how come they have one of the best temperaments of all breeds. How come they are used as therapy dogs????????????????[/quote]
If you look at the ATTS site ( [url]http://atts.org[/url] ), for the components of the TT, you'll see that nowhere on the site does it say "dog will be turned loose with numerous other dogs, any sign of aggression will result in dog being failed"... in fact, according to the description of the test on the site, there aren't any dogs involved in the test itself.

A quote from one therapy dog test (off the TDI site, [url]http://www.tdi-dog.org/[/url] ): "This test demonstrates that the dog can behave politely around other dogs. Two handlers and their dogs approach each other from a distance of about 10 yards, stop, shake hands and exchange pleasantries, and continue on for about 5 yards. The dogs should show no more than a casual interest in each other."
With training, most dog aggressive dogs can be taught to control themselves well enough that they could easily pass this portion of the test, so that doesn't really speak much of the dogs' temperament. A therapy dog test is a completely different situation from a dog park... at the therapy dog test, both dogs would be restrained, under handler control, and not actually interacting with each other... at a dog park, it's the exact opposite.

It's more than a bit surprising too that in all your research on the breed, you seem to have such a hard time grasping the difference between DOG aggression and human aggression... they ARE two completely different things, not even remotely connected. As has been stated by others, many dog aggressive dogs are extremely friendly to people. And most of the people who have posted have agreed that not EVERY pit bull will become dog aggressive, though I maintain my opinion that more DO than don't. Yes, your dogs could play happily with other dogs for all their lives... yes, I could get mowed over by a delivery truck tomorrow as I walk across the street (now, after saying that, I probably will :lol: ). There are NO certainties with dogs... we can do what we will with them; try to bend them to our ways and make them conform to what's "right"; but the fact remains that they are DOGS, and there will be times, when in all their dogliness, they will do what THEY want, ignoring our best attempts at making them follow the rules that we humans have set up as "right". Different dogs will have different inborn desires, that they will be more likely to follow if left to their own devices... hunters will hunt, herders will herd, fighters will fight. It's your job to be sure that, should they one day decide to be pit bulls, and go after another dog (for whatever reason), they are under your control. To forego such caution in the name of your own convenience and enjoyment (and possibly ignorance or subbornness), is nothing less than selfish and irresponsible.

[Guest Anonymous]

Myths & Legends WHAT THEY HAVEN'T TOLD US!


"When I was a child I fell on my head-now I believe what I read in the papers!".. quoted by Iain Hewitson on one of his cooking programs, July 2002!!



"Pitbulls" have a locking jaw - can scissor their teeth back and forth and have a bite of over 1500 P.S.I.etc.

NO! Who conducted the "canine Olympics " with dogs that obey "Bite hard..1,2,3. now!' commands?
Ask for the research, as it does NOT exist.
No dog has an extra locking device.
You don't need scientific proof about the locking jaw nonsense. It's obvious and logical. How would they eat if their jaws kept locking? If it's a voluntary lock (keeping the mouth closed with muscles) it's not a lock. We all have this kind of locking jaw.

Dr Brisbin (Georgia University - USA) and other canine anatomists have compared skulls weight for weight in breeds, with examinations of dog jaws and all are the same construction.

Dr. Brisbin states:
"The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

In regard to claims of massive 1200 P.S.I., 1500 P.S.I., 1800 P.S.I. jaw strength (Depending on who is telling the story)
he says:
"To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparision to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data."

Another "fact" is that the pit bull does not lock its jaw as do other dogs (although this is a frequent claim against it) but it's lower jaw scissors back and forth to "rend flesh from the bone". According to Dr. Brisbin:
"This is anatomically impossible! Humans can move their mandibles forward to a degree because of an essentially flat dental plane. Dogs have greatly projecting and interlocking canine teeth and projecting cheek teeth that prevent movement forwards and backwards. I have a dog skull on my desk as I write and this type of movement can not be made. "

It LOOKS like a Doberman, so it IS a Doberman

NO!..a crossbred dog does NOT become a breed by any old naming ! PUREBRED dogs are bred to a planned, closely checked method, which means after a "design" has been bred and a type stabilised, then proof of FOUR generations of breeding the new, true to type PURE dogs is required for acceptance of a BREED ! (ask a Canine organization!)
Why is this important?
Remember it the next time you read a Newspaper report of a dog attack.
Was it really the breed they stated...or a cross-bred that some reporter felt sorta, kinda looked like a ????

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a cross-bred dog. The danger is that when a reporter, whose only qualification for identifying a dog breed may well be the knowledge of which breeds sell papers, identifys a cross as any pure-bred, sure as God made little puppies...some Politicion will say "BAN IT !"

A dog has "tasted blood" so it will attack/kill again.

NO! Geneticists/ scientists say "Not unless the first killing it did was in the context of hunting for food for itself." Dogs usually bite due to fear, territorial or defence aggression, unless attack trained---they are affected by body chemicals when they launch an attack, but often warn first with growls or slow tail movements , ears back etc.

A dog or "breed" will "turn" on you.

NO! There is a lack of understanding by many people of dogs, their feelings, fears and normal reactions from an animal, not a human .Experienced behaviorists/ "dog folk" know this- We are in control, we need to understand dogs and prevent the problems.

Only big dogs are dangerous -OR bites from little dogs are OK or 'cute"
NO! Small dogs have also killed in Australia and babies & small children are victims of bites from ALL sizes and breeds of dogs. All states have research to show this. Size is relative to the victim and the circumstances, though stronger dogs can inflict deeper bites, many children end up scarred for life from small dogs. ALL dogs MUST be trained for bite inhibition and just plain, good old fashioned manners !.

ALL of a breed is vicious, it was bred to fight etc, and has no redeeming features, etc.

NO! No ONE trait makes up a breed or a dog!
Why is every Labrador not a Guide Dog??
Or every Border Collie a Sheep trial Champion?
Or all attack dogs ONE breed?

[Guest Anonymous]

[b]Everything You Wanted To Know About "Pit Bulls"

The Name



The term "pit bull", in its somewhat broad meaning, generally includes breeds such as: American Pit Bull Terrier (UKC), American Staffordshire Terrier (CKC & AKC), Staffordshire Bull Terrier (CKC & AKC), and sometimes the Bull Terrier.



These breeds were originally used for "sports" like bull baiting and dog fighting. However, just like the vast majority of dog breeds, they are now bred almost exclusively for companionship. Where "pit bulls" are concerned, their original uses have, thankfully, been recognized as inhumane, with only a few cruel individuals still subjecting innocent dogs to this kind of torture.



The Difficulty In Accurately Identifying "Pit Bulls"



To accurately identify a dog of just about any breed, the viewer must be truly experienced with a wide array of dog breeds. Even some "experts" might have difficulty differentiating between a female AmStaff and a female Cane Corso, for example.



Unfortunately, many other breeds or crosses are confused with "pit bulls". Similar-looking, but much larger breeds such as: Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Dog Argentino, & Tosa Inu are more frequently misidentified as "pit bulls" than not.



And even breeds that look nothing like "pit bulls" have been reported as such. Some of those misidentified as "pit bulls" are: Jack Russell Terrier, Labrador Retriever, Great Dane, and even an Airedale cross.



Who Is Qualified To Determine If A Dog Is A "Pit Bull"?



What many people don't know is that a dog's breed can never actually be proven, not even through DNA. Genetically speaking, a Chihuahua is a wolf is a Labrador is a "pit bull". The determination of breed is somewhat subjective, especially when the dog's parentage is unknown.



There have been dogs that looked exactly like a typical "pit bull" who we know have no "pit bull" in them, whatsoever. Crosses like Lab and Rhodesian Ridgeback or Chesapeake Bay Retriever and Boxer could throw puppies that look like "pit bulls", for example.



Only those experienced with a wide range of similar-looking breeds are expert enough to make the subtle distinctions. This may include breeders, dog show judges, or anyone with years of personal experience with multiple, similar-looking breeds. There is no course of instruction for this. It requires years of interaction with the breeds in question, in order to accurately differentiate one from the other.



Who Is Not Qualified To Determine If A Dog Is A "Pit Bull"?



Those who are not qualified to determine if a dog is a "pit bull" include anyone who hasn't had a great deal of experience differentiating between the breeds that look similar to, but are not, "pit bulls". (I.E. even those people who are experienced with "pit bulls" may not be familiar with subtle differences that set other, less common breeds apart.)



Without personal knowledge gained outside the regular requirements for licensing or certification, even animal control workers and veterinarians have no greater ability to determine breed more accurately than the general population at large.



Animal control workers are not required to have any special knowledge of dog breeds in order to fulfill their role.



Veterinarians receive little, if any, instruction in dog behaviour, training, or breed differentiation. Veterinary students often have no special expertise with dogs before attending veterinary college. Licensed veterinarians are expert at diagnosing illness and performing surgery. Unless they are also active in dog training, studying dog behaviour, breeding, or competing, in addition to their veterinary practice, their license alone does not qualify them as dog breed experts.



The average dog owner is equally as unlikely to be familiar with the often confusing differences between breeds. The general public is even less likely to accurately determine breed. The owner of one purebred and typical-looking Great Dane has been told her dog looks like:

*

a "pit bull",
*

a Greyhound,
*

a Mastiff,
*

a Catahoula Leopard Dog,
*

an Afghan Hound,
*

a Rhodesian Ridgeback,
*

and a Boxer.

Clearly, this example demonstrates that many people are just guessing at a dog's breed. A Great Dane looks nothing like a "pit bull", a Boxer, a Rhodesian Ridgeback, a Catahoula Leopard Dog, or an Afghan Hound. At best, the similarity is minor between a Great Dane and either a Mastiff or a Greyhound.



Are "Pit Bulls" Naturally Aggressive Towards Other Dogs?



The short answer, "No."



It is more common than not to hear "pit bulls" referred to as "dog-aggressive". In fact, they aren't. Some may become fearful around other dogs due to a lack of proper socialization. But this happens with all breeds of dogs, not just "pit bulls". Unfortunately, this lack of socialization is frequently encouraged by those who fancy themselves "pit bull" experts.



Citing the breed's history as a dog fighter, some people believe there is some kind of magic "dog fighting" gene or brain chemistry that is passed along from sire and dam to puppy. The truth is, there is no such thing.



So why are so many "pit bulls" involved in attacks on other dogs? Well, the answer is, they aren't necessarily involved more often than any other breed. For instance, Rottweilers are probably involved in just as many attacks on other dogs, yet they were not bred for dog fighting. They were bred to herd cattle and work as guardians. If put to the test, most people would have to honestly answer that it is not "pit bulls" involved in most of the dog biting incidents in their communities. Some, maybe. But just as many Labradors, Goldens, Dalmations, Jack Russells, Poodles, etc. also stand accused of biting other dogs.



Bites to other dogs is not unique to "pit bulls", even though it is only "pit bulls" who were originally bred for dog fighting.



To better understand the situation, we must look at statistical data about dogs who bite other dogs. In the real world, virtually every breed of dog has been attributed with bites to other dogs. Yet, only a handful of breeds, including "pit bulls", were bred for fighting. If the reason a tiny percentage of "pit bulls" bite other dogs is in their genes, why is there only such a small percentage of them involved in biting incidents? (Wouldn't MOST of them be aggressive towards other dogs, if the breed is, in fact, genetically programmed to attack other dogs?) And why are breeds that were not bred for fighting involved in just as many dog biting incidents as "pit bulls"?



The answer is, aggression towards other dogs is a learned behaviour. As Cyndi Frendo of K9 Concepts aptly put it, "Aggression is a behaviour, not a temperament."



Believing the myth that "pit bulls" are naturally aggressive towards other dogs, all-too-many people restrict their "pit bulls" from normal, positive, social interactions with other dogs. Some self-proclaimed "pit bull experts" actually counsel owners to inadequately socialize their "pit bulls" in a misguided attempt to "protect" them from dog fights. This creates the poorly socialized, fearful dogs we have now come to think of as the "pit bull".



In reality, though, thousands of responsible "pit bull" owners have not only properly socialized their companion dogs, but many of them are even certified Therapy Dogs, Search and Rescue Dogs, and Assistance Dogs. This is proof that aggression towards other dogs is a behaviour that can either be learned, un-learned, or never acquired in the first place.





Are "Pit Bulls" Naturally Aggressive Towards People?



Well, many of the fanciers of the breed would yell out a resounding, "No.", in spite of the fact that "pit bulls" kill more humans than most of the other dog breeds combined.



"Oh, no. They were bred to be friendly towards humans." is the mantra one will often hear repeated. This idea flies in the face of the statistics. No other "breed" (although the term "pit bull" is generally considered to be a group of breeds) kills as many humans in North America as do "pit bulls".



Does this mean that "pit bulls" are inherently dangerous? Absolutely not! Even if we believed all the myths about "pit bulls", the statistics still point to the fact that only a tiny percentage of the "pit bulls" in society are ever involved in biting incidents. Even if 5% of "pit bulls" bite, that would mean 95% of "pit bulls" don't. Surely 95% of a population shouldn't have to pay the price for the transgressions of only 5% of their ranks.



So, are 5% of "pit bulls" inherently aggressive towards humans? No, again. Even those "pit bulls" that have been involved in serious biting incidents can be rehabilitated through responsible ownership and ethical training techniques. Only those who have never been successful at re-training dogs believe it can't be done.



Human fatalities are not unique to "pit bulls" by any means. Every Group of dog breeds, even several members of the Toy Group, have been attributed with human deaths. Sure, there are more "pit bulls" involved in fatal dog bites, but many other breeds have also killed.



The ability to determine if a puppy will become a danger, one day, is best achieved by viewing the puppy's owner. Does that person hope the puppy will grow up to be fierce, or protective, or a weapon? If so, it doesn't matter what breed of dog they own. They will likely be successful, through improper training.



The sad fact is, many powerful breeds are purchased in the hopes they can be used as weapons. This is not unique to "pit bulls". However, the kinds of people who want their dogs to become aggressive have found that little 30-60 lb "pit bulls" can be trained to be just as menacing as their larger counterparts, yet they cost a lot less to feed and house. And because they are physically much smaller, are easier for inexperienced owners to manage. They are the perfect "pocket protector", relative to much larger breeds that were originally created for the purpose of guarding or personal protection.



If you don't want a dog as part of the family, but just as a means of threatening other people; if you don't plan to incorporate such a social animal into family life, instead just leaving it alone in the yard to guard the property; if you don't know much about dog training, and expect to be able to physically restrain an untrained dog with a leash; ...if you're that kind of person, you'll be quickly overwhelmed by an adult Great Dane or Mastiff, for example. These breeds are much more costly to keep than a "pit bull", and they will soon be able to drag the owner anywhere they please, if not obedience trained. Luckily for fanciers of these breeds, these facts have kept them from becoming popular with the kinds of people who want dogs as weapons. Unfortunately for "pit bulls", they are an ideal choice for thugs, criminals, and those who need a "tough" dog in order to feel "macho". They don't cost much and can, even without the requisite hours and hours of obedience training, be physically restrained by the average adult.



While "pit bulls" do cause more fatalities than any other breed, the percentage of "pit bulls" involved in such incidents remains miniscule. The majority of "pit bulls" never bite or kill anyone or anything. When they do, the reasons are the same as they are for any of the other breeds who bite or kill. Poor training and lack of proper socialization by the dog's owner is to blame. This explains why so many unrelated breeds are involved in aggression incidents. Breed is not the deciding factor. The home environment is.



Don't Some Dogs Have Aggressive Temperaments?



"Aggression is a behaviour, not a temperament."



Many people like to throw around the terms "good" and "bad" temperaments, but these labels are meaningless. A dog of so-called "good" temperament could easily become aggressive if abused or neglected. Dogs labelled as having "bad" temperaments are routinely rehabilitated by experienced, successful trainers. Labels like "good" and "bad" truly are meaningless, in that they are wholly relative to the environment in which the dog is kept.



What isn't meaningless are the real temperament types. Dominant, submissive, and all the shades of gray in between are the temperaments that dogs are born with. These temperaments don't significantly change, regardless of their environment. More importantly, all are trainable, even though different temperaments may require different training methods.



It is important to note that a litter of puppies from the same two parents can present a wide variety of temperament types. Sometimes, from the same two parents, a litter can present the entire gamut of temperaments, from extremely dominant to extremely submissive, regardless of the temperaments of the parents. We don't have as much control over breeding temperament as we like we think we do. Regardless, we are comforted by the fact that dogs of all temperaments can be trained to become model canine citizens.



Dogs Are Natural Predators



Yes, dogs are predators who kill for food. But they must learn this skill through encouragement and practice. Man has not yet found a way to raise wolf cubs in captivity and successfully release them into the wild. The wolves never learn how to kill on their own. Other wolves must teach them to hunt, and they must practice their hunting technique. Chasing is instinctual for dogs. Killing isn't.



In fact, wild canids rarely injure each other in the wild. All their fierce looking squabbling is mere posturing. It is quite rare for an injury to take place. When it does, it is usually a simple bite and release. It is immeasurably rare for wild dogs to kill one another.



Are "Pit Bulls" More Likely To Bite?



No. They aren't. All dogs are predators by nature, with teeth that can bite. However, proper rearing teaches dogs (and yes, children) how to get what they want without resorting to violence. All breeds of dog respond well to ethical training methods.



There are two main points that many people fail to recognize:

1.

There is no such thing as a breed of dog that won't bite.
2.

The breeds at the top of biting statistics are the most popular breeds at the time. Meaning, in Canada, Labradors, Golden Retrievers, and German Shepherds top the bite statistics, whereas "pit bulls" don't even make it into the top five. Any dog can bite. Any poorly trained dog may bite unprovoked. Breed is not the deciding factor, training is.

Some "Pit Bull" Breeders Claim That 'Bad Breeding' Causes Aggression



Science simply doesn't support that theory. If we look at the issue pragmatically, we'd search for evidence that dogs who attack are genetically related in some way. This would indicate an inheritable component to aggressive behaviour; some kind of shared genetic cause for the aberrant behaviour.



In fact, the "pit bulls" involved in serious attacks are not genetically related in any meaningful way. Also, when we look at all dogs involved in serious attacks, we see that they, too, are not genetically linked in any way that supports the theory of a genetic basis for aggression. In fact, purebreds are never crossed with other breeds, by definition. This excludes the idea of shared genetic pathology.



In short, dogs involved in serious biting incidents are not genetically related. Therefore, they could not possibly share some kind of unique, inheritable gene that causes them to attack.

[Guest Anonymous]

[b]
BASSO BROTHER'S PRACTICAL DOG TRAINING SCHOOL

PIT BULLS

I have trained many pit bull dogs of various breeds... some nice, some nasty. The nice ones are typical of the pit fighting breeds. The nasty ones were usually made that way because of a ruined puppyhood (neglect, teasing, lack of socialization, abuse, etc.) or because of backyard breeding (poor/ questionable genetics). A properly socialized and trained pit bull dog is a fine companion for children and adults AND IS SAFE TO OWN.

WHAT IS A PIT BULL TERRIER?

* A cross between a bulldog and a terrier
* The Bulldog was used for it

[Guest Anonymous]

These were apparently written by MORONS...
[quote]Are "Pit Bulls" Naturally Aggressive Towards Other Dogs?
The short answer, "No."
[/quote]
Okay... And the sheepdog doesnt naturally herd, and the Vizsla doesnt naturally point... what kinda BS is this??
[quote]It is more common than not to hear "pit bulls" referred to as "dog-aggressive". In fact, they aren't. Some may become fearful around other dogs due to a lack of proper socialization. But this happens with all breeds of dogs, not just "pit bulls". Unfortunately, this lack of socialization is frequently encouraged by those who fancy themselves "pit bull" experts. [/quote]
They become so fearful they rip your arm off pulling on the leash so hard when they see another dog. Wouldnt they ignore or go the other way if they "feared" another dog? MORE BS.
[quote]Citing the breed's history as a dog fighter, some people believe there is some kind of magic "dog fighting" gene or brain chemistry that is passed along from sire and dam to puppy. The truth is, there is no such thing.
[/quote]
The "magic dog-fighting gene" can be passed on and is. Its called GAMENESS.
[quote]The answer is, aggression towards other dogs is a learned behaviour. As Cyndi Frendo of K9 Concepts aptly put it, "Aggression is a behaviour, not a temperament."
[/quote]
I have never taught any of my dogs to be aggressive towards other dogs. BUT every one of them is dog aggressive.
[quote]Believing the myth that "pit bulls" are naturally aggressive towards other dogs, all-too-many people restrict their "pit bulls" from normal, positive, social interactions with other dogs. Some self-proclaimed "pit bull experts" actually counsel owners to inadequately socialize their "pit bulls" in a misguided attempt to "protect" them from dog fights. This creates the poorly socialized, fearful dogs we have now come to think of as the "pit bull".
[/quote]
So, according to these people we should allow our pits to run around with other dogs?! What the hell is wrong with these people?! They must be the ones pulling for BSL and are tryin to poorly educate people so they do take their dogs out where they can kill other peoples dogs.

[quote]In reality, though, thousands of responsible "pit bull" owners have not only properly socialized their companion dogs, but many of them are even certified Therapy Dogs, Search and Rescue Dogs, and Assistance Dogs. This is proof that aggression towards other dogs is a behaviour that can either be learned, un-learned, or never acquired in the first place.
[/quote]
And how many other dogs are they around when they are working? A pit bull can be trained to somewhat refrain from other dogs but the minute hes off the clock, precautions should be taken. YES, a pit knows when he is at work and will refrain from play. I guarantee none of these therapy dogs, etc. are kept with other dogs while they arent working (and arent around many, if any, while they are.)!
[quote]"Oh, no. They were bred to be friendly towards humans." is the mantra one will often hear repeated. This idea flies in the face of the statistics. No other "breed" (although the term "pit bull" is generally considered to be a group of breeds) kills as many humans in North America as do "pit bulls".
[/quote]
They say this after they tell us how many breeds are mistaken for pit bulls. How acurate can those stats be?
[quote]They don't cost much and can, even without the requisite hours and hours of obedience training, be physically restrained by the average adult.
[/quote]
You pay for what you get, as with any breed. They definately arent cheap!! Not the well bred, full-blooded APBTs anyway.

Now for the second post by Guest
[quote] A cross between a bulldog and a terrier [/quote]
This is very highly debated in the APBT world!

The "Typical Problems" section can be typical with any breed.
[quote]* Generally good with people, other animals, and other dogs, PROVIDED that they were raised properly
[/quote]
The only way you can keep two pit bulls together is if you always have them under constant supervision. If you need to leave the house for 20 min, they need to be seperated. You cannot leave them alone together.
[quote]* They give a warning before they attack, just like any other dog. Usually, if you see a Pit Bull Terrier that

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='courtnek']Hollywood and Guest....

They are merely trying to point out the facts - that there IS always a possibility with a Pit that it will turn dog aggressive at some point - maybe not a probablility, but a strong possibility.

[/quote]


I dont want to get in the middle of this.. but I do know my best friends MIL had 3 Pit Bulls. they were great dogs, then one day 2 of them starting fighting ( 2 brother who were fixed ) and tryig to get eachother. they broke out of their seperate 6 foot cages ourside ( for themt o go potty and stuff) and the her mom went to get the dogs , and they turned and attacked her... she almost lost her right arm. she has serious damage to it.. they had to be put down none the less. and they've had them since they were born, and they have always raised Pitts with no problems in the past...

[gooeydog]

[quote]Behaviour is inherited and therefore predictable by breed.

NO! Behaviour is a product of genes interacting with environment & environmental experiences during development of a puppy shape the brain and its connections-then there is learning on top of that .If a developing behaviour (even a genetic one) isn't reinforced, it will fade away or be modified into a different form .In the end, environment is critical-consider teaching a pup not to jump, by ignoring and redirecting it-or why is not every APBT aggressive if this trait is caused totally by inheritance-or why can a rescued fight APBT be retrained and rehomed![quote]

The problem with this is that they fail to add that for the APBT, fighting is a self rewarding activity. The fight itself IS the reinforcement. With a jumping puppy, you CAN take away the positive aspect of it (the attention they get), with a pit bull fighting, you CAN'T.

It also appears that they don't have the best grasp of genetic inheritance (though I guess I'm not one to talk, either :lol: ), as they should know that there is no guarantee that if a trait is present in one dog, that that dog's offspring will posess the same trait, maybe not even if both parents carry for it. Sometimes things can be hidden in a line of dogs for YEARS, then just "pop up" when a certain cross is made.... only to disappear again when the product of that cross is bred. It's not always as simple as crossing X and Z to get Y...

On the subject of "retraining" dogs that have been used for fighting... it should also be noted that most of the "priveledged few" who get this chance are fairly "cold" dogs anyway, and have little desire to pick a fight. Most ex-fighters are also placed in "only pet" homes.

[quote]It is more common than not to hear "pit bulls" referred to as "dog-aggressive". In fact, they aren't. Some may become fearful around other dogs due to a lack of proper socialization. But this happens with all breeds of dogs, not just "pit bulls". Unfortunately, this lack of socialization is frequently encouraged by those who fancy themselves "pit bull" experts[/quote]
I'd love to see these people explain then WHY there are APBTs out there who have been socialized since they were 8 weeks old (with as much socialization as possible in the breeder's home) that grow up to be mature APBTs who would merrily kill any dog they happened to come upon without their owners there to intervene... Also of interest to me is their explanation for those dogs who have been raised from birth to be fighters, and those who have been locked away, abused, etc, yet have NO interest whatsoever in other dogs.

[quote]Citing the breed's history as a dog fighter, some people believe there is some kind of magic "dog fighting" gene or brain chemistry that is passed along from sire and dam to puppy. The truth is, there is no such thing. [/quote]
Again, these kind of statements do not speak well of these peoples' knowledge of genetics... traits are not always passed on in a simple manner, which would could be why people who only look for obvious connections may miss more subtle, but eually important connections. Read some of the research on HD in dogs.... while no one knows yet exactly HOW it's passed on, it can be traced back through entire families of dogs.

[quote]They give a warning before they attack, just like any other dog. Usually, if you see a Pit Bull Terrier that

[Guest Anonymous]

I have to be honest I cant really debunk the posts note for note like these two, I never got that far into them. I started them and quickly lost interest due to backtracking logic and flat out lies and inconsistencies.

Bad form , guest If you are going to post something as a learning tool on this board you would do well to proofread it and make sure of what is being stated in the post. This isnt a group of people who are easily swayed by popular opinion or by unbased statements.