Opinions

[Horsefeathers!]

I'm just curious. I'm going to toss something out there and you tell me what you think. I would be especially like to hear from people who are educated in breeding and genetics.

I wuz thinkin... I have been doing a lot of research on my particular favorite breed, Standard Poodles, studying breed standards, learning of all the problems this breed is prone to and talking with "Poodle people" (what funny looking people they must be!). I was seriously considering eventually finding a mentor and getting a pup for the purpose of conformation and perhaps eventual breeding. I have only the best intentions in mind (misguided?). I really intend to do it right!

Now I'm thinking a little differently. SP's are water dogs... retrievers. Athletes. Sooooo... I started thinking that I would rather get involved in agility and obedience. I'm starting to think that if I buy a dog, I want one from working lines and not just one with lots of conformation wins. The more I read, the more I'm beginning to think that conformation is a lot about beauty. I know, I know, I've been one to adamantly insist that conformation is all about the dogs being built to perform whatever functions they were bred for, but I'm seeing so many exceptions. I'm seeing GSD's in the ring that just don't look like they could possibly work. They are becoming so overangulated. With nearly any working breed, you will find fanciers who are becoming frustrated with changing standards within the ring (someone here was recently complaining that a lot of today's show Newfs would not be able to work because of the overabundance of coat being produced to win in the ring).

So here's my thing... I'm considering getting a dog (waayyyyyyy down the road... we're talking several years away) from working lines and titling it in obedience and agility and whatever other "working" titles I need. I still have a LOT to learn yet about any of this. What I'm curious about is does a dog HAVE to prove itself in conformation to be worthy of being bred? I have been researching (the more I learn, the more I don't know!) and am learning the breed standard inside and out. I'm talking about dogs that have all pertinent health clearances, excellent working titles and are everything that SP's were ORIGINALLY bred to be. I want a dog that can do what it was bred to do! Even though the standard is there so the dog can hypothetically do what it's supposed to, nothing in the show ring can test the dog's capabilities or willingness to do what its original function was.

So am I way off base in thinking that conformation isn't the end all, be all means to determining which dogs should be bred?

[bk_blue]

Interesting topic HF... :)

I am by no means an expert in anything dog-related, but I would be fairly sure that a farmer with sheep or cattle would rather have a mismarked heeler or border collie who could work rather than a perfect looking dog who couldn't. Of course to actually DO the job required the dog needs to be sound physically and maybe that's where the conformation comes in. Coat colour and markings however would not interest them at all, I imagine.

I have also heard that here in Aust. some farmers are breeding BCs with heelers to get a good herding dog, as so many of the purebred heelers and collies these days are hopeless at working, having been bred for the show ring for too long and not herding... this is what I've [i]heard[/i], I don't know how true it is. :-?

[Carolk9s]

I do not believe that a dog MUST be a conformation champion in order to be worthy of breeding. Depends a lot on that breeds conformation standards. I also think there are far too many breed champions that have been bred that should not be in any breeding program. In many working breeds, there are specific lines bred for work and the dogs NEVER see the inside of a conf. ring. The Belgian Malinois is one example, there are top notch working dogs that would be all but dismissed from the breed ring. OK, a stray thought just popped into my head, I do have to wonder if these high drive hard working Mals could/would herd sheep or ducks without putting them through the fence or worse. Now I have to pose this question to the BELG-L list!

[Kiger]

Funny, there was an article in the last AKC magazine about a very famous SP line that still retains its working ability. I looked it up - it's the Puttencove Promise line. So if you want to show conformation plus then there are still Poodles out there that can do it. I don't think SP's have gone through a radical makeover like GSD's - hair makeover though definitely! :lol:

[Horsefeathers!]

I wouldn't mind the conformation, per se, but I had a real problem trying to figure out how to maintain a SP in full show coat and yet be able to work him. I did find one person with a working SP who said she tried once to work a SP in full show coat and it took 19 HOURS to get the burrs and trash out of the coat. Ack! I've seen a few shows that allowed a historically correct continental trim (a shorter version of the full show coat), but not many. If it's possible that a SP could do well in the ring without so much coat and STILL retain its working abilities, then that might be doable. I just don't know yet. Most of the SP's you see in the ring are so loaded with coat (and wouldn't that make competition in conformation tough, so that an otherwise marvelous dog might not do so well against a lesser dog with more impressive coat, which also, by the way, can be groomed to hide faults), I just don't see how they could work, or perform in agility (imagine weave poles with all that hair!).

That's my dilemma. I would plan on having a correctly built dog(s) and making sure they are sound and have all pertinent health clearances, but I just keep thinking that if I HAVE to choose, I would rather start focusing on working abilities.

Picture THIS in the water retrieving, or doing agility! :-?


[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0aADiArUh8iDCFjJq59iEAUSxAUeVNhJsyIkiQAy9yOU5Ar6namnJv3A7Fhy82YL55zkLT5lQcg6jhnjGHj8BigEMAoRQ3DRJrW8NclcOZJy5EmiKfjpfN9!WaAvtgpTksYdmxzADMz5Q0eUZvgcVhGxsYS80LjAg/standard-in-snow.jpg?dc=4675422080044803446[/img]

[Horsefeathers!]

Thanks for that name, Kiger! I'll have to see what I can find out about them. If they are people who don't mind being bugged, I may try to contact them for info. I'm always looking for a mentor.

[Kiger]

That dog was actually from the 50's, but he has a long line of descendents. Here's one kennel I found by doing a search on the name:

[url]http://www.pinaforekennel.com/index.html[/url]

Ale Kai Kennel was also mentioned in the article as breeding this line. This looks like a good place to start:

[url]http://www.poodleclubofamerica.org/usamap.htm[/url]

[RR]

Form follows function. If you look at where any dog came from conformation is extremely important --- if a dog doesn't have conformation it can't do the job it was bred to do.

I believe breeders especially new breeders should be involved in conformation shows even if to start you are just a spectator. I always learn something and make a point to do so. To plan on having correctly built dogs you need to know what is correct. Showing, I believe is a small but important part. Research, history of the breed, knowing the breed standard, knowledge of conformation, structure & genetics is important.

In the multitude of replies this topic is sure to create I believe you will hear about breeders who breed for "showy" and flashy looks --- which is what conformation means to some. NOT that this is right. I personally would avoid the breeder who's focus is a pretty coat. Others look past flashy and believe in having their dogs evaluated by people qualified to do so. THEN you will hear about those who breed strickly on working ability and the dogs keenness to hunt, track, race whathaveyou. The dog may or may not resemble breed standard. NOT that this is right either.

All in all remember there are breeders out there who breed for BOTH correct conformation and ability --- to me this is the ideal and I would certainly try hard to find such a breeder for a mentor. JMO :)

[RR]

[quote]Picture THIS in the water retrieving, or doing agility[/quote]

Actually HF with the trimming on a poodle such as the one in the photo you posted isn't there a practical purpose to that -- more than just to look pretty? I thought while doing their job, the thick hair was to keep a poodle and their organs warm in the water while the shaved areas were to help them from being bogged down in the water?? I thought this stylized look frequently seen at dog shows originated with the hunters?

(sry I don't know much about the poodle standard) ;)

[Horsefeathers!]

That's true, RR, there IS a reason for that particular trim. It was to keep the vital organs and joints protected and get rid of all "unnecessary" hair that would weigh a dog down in the water. However, for working purposes, the coat was never THAT profuse. It has evolved to be way too extreme for working purposes. I have some pictures in a book around here that show the history of show Poodles from the turn of the last century until now. The "style" is basically the same, but the earlier Poodles weren't nearly so heavily coated.

Thanks for the links, Kiger!

[Carolk9s]

Why HF the answer is really quite simple! Find the perfect puppy, groom and show for conformation, get his/her championship by the time he/she is 18 months old, get an obedience title or two, shave the coat and start your agility career!

[Horsefeathers!]

RR, that is my goal... to try to find as a mentor someone who DOES breed for conformation AND function. I'm just trying to avoid placing so much emphasis solely on conformation. While I know that the purpose of conformation is to determine that a dog is built "correctly," even still, a correctly built dog that may do beautifully in the ring may not be able, in regard to temperament and ability, do what it is he was originally "built" for. Conformation matches can ONLY determine that the dog is physically "right."

I hope I'm making sense. I'm still only in the early research stages of all this. I really do want to find people who breed for correct conformation AND ability. It just seemed like an either/or situation... a profusely coated, beautifully built show dog, or a beautifully built WORKING dog.:)

Carol... that is almost too brilliant to work. Could it really be that simple?? Gosh, I would have never even thought of that. So now I wonder still, when looking to purchase a puppy, what traits I should place the most emphasis on.

So much to learn!!

[RR]

Thanks HF --- thats something about the poodle breed I didn't know :)

p.s. you are absolutely right, but I look at it as correct conformation should be the the foundation for everything else... temperament - soundness, health, ablilty, and a million other things I didn't list are all other things vital in one's breeding program :) then there are a million other things that make a good breeder ;)

[Kiger]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']Carol... that is almost too brilliant to work. Could it really be that simple??[/quote]

That's what I'm trying to do. I don't know if I'll ever get around to it, but this dog is definitely smart enough to do obedience - the question is, is he too smart for his own good? :lol:

In the case of Shibas, there is one breed where the conformation stars are definitely more like the standard and true to form. The more "Americanized" versions seem to be the ones coming from pet stores. Some barely resemble Shibas. I know I could take Kato out and hunt birds with him - don't think he'd come back though. :P

[Rosebud]

[quote name='RR']Form follows function. If you look at where any dog came from conformation is extremely important --- if a dog doesn't have conformation it can't do the job it was bred to do.

I believe breeders especially new breeders should be involved in conformation shows even if to start you are just a spectator. I always learn something and make a point to do so. To plan on having correctly built dogs you need to know what is correct. Showing, I believe is a small but important part. Research, history of the breed, knowing the breed standard, knowledge of conformation, structure & genetics is important.

In the multitude of replies this topic is sure to create I believe you will hear about breeders who breed for "showy" and flashy looks --- which is what conformation means to some. NOT that this is right. I personally would avoid the breeder who's focus is a pretty coat. Others look past flashy and believe in having their dogs evaluated by people qualified to do so. THEN you will hear about those who breed strickly on working ability and the dogs keenness to hunt, track, race whathaveyou. The dog may or may not resemble breed standard. NOT that this is right either.

All in all remember there are breeders out there who breed for BOTH correct conformation and ability --- to me this is the ideal and I would certainly try hard to find such a breeder for a mentor. JMO :)[/quote]

:D

My thoughts exactly. One thing I am at a loss at is Lure-Coursing & Agility are pretty much the only ability sports available for the RR. I would like to get my line involved in actual simulated hunts and don't know where to start.

:angel:

[Mama A.J.]

I'll give you my view on breeding:

Breeding should never be done just because your dog fits the AKC standard, is healthy, and is beautiful. What more of a reason to add un-needed pups into this world. Breeding should also never be done just because your dog has titles or is a good hunter and you hope to continue the genes.

Health comes first. But you should not breed for one single purpose. I like breeders who breed for an all-around dog, who are involved with their dogs in activities, who have titles on dogs, whose dogs have been proven to carry healthy genes, who come from good lines, etc.

It's not as much the title that is important but the capability of the dog, the involvement of the breeder with the dog, and the willingness of each.

Again, just because a dog fits the AKC standards does not make it worthy of being bred. Breeding is not a small thing, because we are talking about bringing pups into this world. They are a big responsibility- it is in your hands to find them a loving and caring home, to do all that is possible to make sure there will be no health problems...or any health problems which you could have prevented. You really have to do it for the love of the breed, because you never know whether you will lose or gain money. You never know what to expect...how the delivery will go, if all the pups will survive, if the bitch will have any complications, if there will be any health problems in the pups, etc. A lot of money goes into it all and you have to be dedicated. I know breeders who are very responsible and reputable, who breed for all-around purposeful dogs, and who have run into complications along the road that have literally put them in the hole. People think that breeders make a lot of money, but they don't.

[Horsefeathers!]

The more I'm learning, the more overwhelmed I'm feeling. The idea of finishing a dog young and then taking off in working and agility sounds great, but it opens up another can of worms. I have NO show experience and can't find any handling classes anywhere near me (still looking, though... I'm sure SOMETHING is out there and I still have all the time in the world). I am looking right now for upcoming shows in my region, so perhaps I can bug some people there (ya, I know... beware trying to catch them on their way into the ring). What I'm wondering now is this... how likely is it that a nobody handler (me) will be able to finish a dog and so young? I mean, I hear so much about conformation sometimes being about WHO is on the other end of the leash that I wonder if I stand a snowball's chance in h*ll of actually getting anywhere with a dog... a nobody like me. I really want to do this, myself, rather than hire a handler. It's kind of the point of the whole thing.

Thoughts? Dream on?

[Kiger]

With Poodles - yeah, you might have a problem because you are a novice. From what I've seen, they are mostly handled by pros - and the grooming is time intensive. I pull Kato out of the car, fluff him with a brush and he goes in the ring. The Poodle people are in the tent grooming away for hours. Some breeds are more novice friendly then others - Poodles, Dobies, GSD's, etc... not so much. I don't want to discourage you. I still think it can be done! The big thing is to find a breeder who will show you the way.

[Mary's Mama]

Just a few comments:

I do not think that confirmation is the #1 reason why a dog should be breed or that it must have a title to be breed. This partially comes from my breed of choice (JRT's). They were just recently accepted by AKC and I fear for the future of the breed as a result. Yes a dog must have proper form to complete its function but it is a total package, the two work hand in hand. Too many conformation champions can't work and that is sad.

Is there a breed club for poodles that focuses on working and does conformation? This is how the JRT world does it. There is the JRTCA that holds trials regularly. You can compete in confirmation, racing, steeplechase, agility, go-to-ground, and lure-coursing. You can title your dog within the breed in each area. This way the dog is proven to meet all criteria for a well breed dog. Also within the JRTCA a dog can not be registered until it is a year old and it is proven that it meets standard for form and temperment. All other dogs are recorded and must be s/n.

Can you compete in conformation other than AKC? I know someone who used to breed smooth collies. She quit because the AKC competition is too political and the dogs no longer fit the standard, and they can no longer work. She still breeds but only for working purposes and she titles her dogs with another organization.

I think too many people put too much weight in AKC, it is not all that it is cracked up to be.

[Kiger]

[quote=Mary's Mama]I think too many people put too much weight in AKC, it is not all that it is cracked up to be.[/quote]

But what else is there? All the other "registries" are sham registries put in place by commercial breeders and millers - UKC, CKC, APRI, APR - there are too many of them to name.
And it's not that political and not all the dogs are mutated into show freaks.
Westminster is political - I'd say all the big shows are. Small shows, you'll get some judges that definitely have a bias, others are fair. We won 6 out of the 10 times we showed - so it can be done.

[Mary's Mama]

I wasn't necessarily speaking in terms of registries but titles. Although IMO an AKC registration is no more valuable than a CKC or something else. There is no guarantee that every pup in a litter will meet standard at 1 year of age. I dont know about all the other breeds but I would think there would be breed specific registeries and associations, as I described with the JRTCA. There is also some kind of international conformation thing I've read about. I dont know a lot about it but I do know that AKC is not the ONLY way to go and that there are better alternatives.

I have heard more complaints than praise about AKC and I know that every breed is different. Kiger, you're breed isn't very popular therefore you may not have encountered some of the nonsense that others do.

So basically my point was to look into breed specific associations that value working ability and confirmation. I think they provide a better basis for judging your dog against standard.

PS - I met my very first Shiba at the park this weekend and all I could think about was how Kato is so much more beautiful!!

[Kiger]

[quote=Mary's Mama]PS - I met my very first Shiba at the park this weekend and all I could think about was how Kato is so much more beautiful!![/quote]

Thanks. Unfortunately, a lot of Shibas in this country come from backyard breeders. That's why I said above that the Shiba was one instance where you wanted to look for a show breeder. They are the only ones who are really trying to stick to the standard - some better then others. Seems like everyone else just breeds cute puppies and doesn't worry about the rest.

[Carolk9s]

I'm not sure I understand why UKC is considered a 'sham' registration? Now there's a lot I don't know because I am not involved in conformation showing in any way. I know of many Belgian owners whose dogs are dual titled in AKC and UKC. I have watched Belgian judging at a UKC show, I felt the scrutiny was more more pronounced and I really like the assisted animation part. The UKC judges also write a critique of each dog, at least in Belgians, not sure about other breeds. So at the end, you have written details what the judge liked about your dog and what they perhaps did not like or felt was lacking.
When I decided to register Jesse with the UKC, I provided AKC registration info, otherwise I would have had to register him as a mixed breed or provide detailed photos. I only registered him with UKC so we could do UKC agility.
Perhaps the feeling that UKC is a less than desirable registry is why some people will only do AKC agility with their dogs, some actually look down a bit on UKC agility. Heck, it's all about having fun and bonding with your dog to me.

[Kiger]

Didn't mean to step on toes. At least in conformation, the Shibas that I've seen that were UKC champions were poor representations of the breed. One was completely black - a mismark if there ever was one. This dog would never win at an AKC event. I don't see how it would matter which registry you use for agility if the events are similar. I don't know much about it, but aren't the same skills required across the registries?

[Horsefeathers!]

I have heard that competition amongst Poodle people is tough. I was just wondering what kind of brick wall I am up against. I have been studying and practicing my grooming. I have no doubt that I will be able to show groom my own dog. It's part of my goals. Actually, in upcoming March, I will begin competition grooming, in an effort to polish my Poodle grooming. I've been working on this for quite a while. I may (or may not) do well in grooming competitions, but they aren't nearly as political (at least, not in the entry level divisions) as what I've heard conformation showing to be. I just wonder if I'm walking into a brick wall.

Then again, ignorance may be bliss in this sense. Maybe if I go into this thinking that I can do it and it will work, it will.

Again, I don't want a dog to be perfect solely in conformation... I want the perfect overall Standard Poodle, in conformation, temperament, health and ability.

Thanks so much for the input.