bk_blue Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 This is maybe not of interest to anyone except Hobbit, but thought I would post it anyway.... [url]http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/facts/2002/roadtests/workkelpie_36.html[/url] I was quite surprised by the price- up to $10k for a champion working dog... Worth it I suppose, the kelpies earn their keep in the end! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 [quote name='bk_blue']This is maybe not of interest to anyone except Hobbit, but thought I would post it anyway.... [url]http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/facts/2002/roadtests/workkelpie_36.html[/url] I was quite surprised by the price- up to $10k for a champion working dog... Worth it I suppose, the kelpies earn their keep in the end! :D[/quote] THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS. In January of every year in California at the Red Bluff Gelding and Bull Sale, there is a dog sale. It is geared specifically for working stock dogs and sold only to working ranches/persons. This past year a Kelpie named Urricelqui's Griz sold for $3100.00, his great-grand father sold (years prior) for $5300.00. I have a sister and 3 neices to Urricelqui's Griz; they are exceptional dogs when it comes to working livestock. Intelligence beyond comprehension. These prices are not uncommon, some started dogs start at $2500.00 and go up from there. The price is not outrageous when you consider that a good dog does the work of 2 to 10 cowboys (depending on the experience of the dog and attitude of the livestock). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 To me i do not think this is that much to ask for a dog that is Fully trained... Considering that someone has hours of work and time in the dog.. That picture (pictures but the first one on the right) is great! I love the intense look on the face!! I have a thing for a working dog...Okay reword I love to see a working dog work.... especially one that has passion and shows it in their face and movement... I like in the link where it says: Maintenance:Low(working dog) High (pet) Very Good information!! :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Some sites will state that Kelpies make excellent pets. THEY DON'T make excellent pets, if a PET is all they want them to do. They ARE excellent companions, ALONG with (in conjunction to) excellent workers. They are bred to herd livestock. They LOVE what they do and will wake you up at 3am.....to go check the goats and again at 3:05 and again at 3:30 and .....aaaauuuuggghhhh. TRUST ME, I know this. Their LOVE for work is NON-STOP (can't be turned off) EVERY second of the day. That is EVERY second of EVERY day, they want to herd something. Even in their sleep, they are herding! When ever someone inquires about getting a working Kelpie (as a pet) --- I spend the next 2 hours trying to talk them out of it and then give them the number of the nearest animal shelter for something more suitable as a pet (NOT a Kelpie). They are a pain in the neck. They work ANYTHING that moves: children, other dogs, lizards, butterflies, cats, skunks, snakes, mice, leaves blowing, flowers moving, bicycles, CARS, ..... ANYTHING! Some start showing interest as soon as their eyes can focus....others later, others may not start until they are close to a year old. One day, when you least expect it....it TURNS ON! Some sites say they are excellent guard dogs --- they are not. They are aloof with strangers, but are not human aggressive (most that is). They weren't bred to be human aggressive, they were bred to herd livestock. They can be down right nasty tempered if another dog aggravates them constantly and some will re-direct the aggression onto their handler. We just deal with this accordingly. They are athletic, like to climb (some can climb trees), like high places, and can find anything that you hide from them. Don't show them anything that you don't want them doing --- experience here...., they can open doors, gates, refrigerator doors, cabinet doors. DO NOT under any circumstances teach them how to climb ladders, then stupidly leave one leaning up against the house---don't ask! They can normally be house trained in one day --- honestly, no BS here. There are some that may take a little longer, but all-in-all they are very easy to teach to go outside to do their business. Oh, but they can be defiant, too and hateful, and rebellious, and pranksters --- . Some are "window jumpers". They take the quickest route out of the house --- thru the window. YEP, have one of those. We just have to be really careful when she is in the house. Have been unsuccessful at breaking her of this habit. Funny thing is --- her mother is the same way. Ahhh, love those lovely genes that were passed on to her. Some do make excellent agility dogs, because they can learn in a week what other dogs learn in 6 weeks. On the other hand, since they do think for themselves, they have been known to totally embarrass their handler at a show...... :lol: The "bench" or "show" Kelpie has a different look and different characteristics from the "working" Kelpie and are considered another breed, altogether. Alrighty, have a totally bored you all to sleep.....I'll stop now, until later! :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted October 27, 2002 Author Share Posted October 27, 2002 Kelpies are GREAT dogs... *almost* as good as heelers :wink: The link that I posted was part of a TV show I watched, I saw the segment on the Kelpie working the sheep and it was fantastic! They really are amazing dogs and you are so right Hobbit when you say one good dog can do the work of 5 men. I think all the Kelpies I have seen are bench Kelpies or crosses, because they've all been fairly small and lightly built (the working ones are really quite solid!?), but still really active. I guess all the proper Kelpies are out in the country doing what they're supposed to be doing and not prancing around in the park with a frisbee :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bensam Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 May I just straighten out a couple of the comments in the Burkes Backyard article. Mr Burke has had a disagreement with the NSW Canine Assoc. Previously the segment would feature pure bred dogs but since the disagreement he has switched to (his description) "Designer Dogs" in other words, cross breds (probably from puppy millers, though I wont states this as fact as I dont want to be sued!). Even in the Kelpie segment he is putting a slur on the registered dogs. I have friends who breed and show Kelpies AND a number of their pups are also sold for working. It disgusts me that Mr Burke intimates that the registered dogs have not the brains to do the job they are bred for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted October 27, 2002 Author Share Posted October 27, 2002 Bensam- there is also an article in the Burke's Backyard archives that would probably make more sense now that I know who Don Burke has been arguing with: :o [url]http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/facts/1999/pets/rspcaworst_42.html[/url] "A few weeks ago we did a story on designer dogs and puppy farms. The new types of dogs being produced by some of the better puppy farms have better temperaments and make excellent pets. From the letters we received it was clear that many people misunderstood that story. They wrongly assumed we were encouraging the breeding of more dogs when in fact we were doing just the opposite. We are encouraging the breeding of dogs where good temperament and suitability as family pets are the main objectives of the breeding program. What we feel must be discouraged is the breeding of dogs for appearance as is the case with a number of pure breeds rather than with temperament as the main focus. We disagree with the RSPCA on the issue of puppy farms because we have found that well run puppy farms are producing very good family pets that are less likely to be dumped. Many breeders of purebred animals on the other hand do not place sufficient emphasis on the suitability of their animals as pets." Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Fair enough the REST of the article is about how heartbreaking being an RSPCA officer is but if this sort of crap is being bandied about on national TV with no mention of the fact that puppy farms are surely one of the worst places you can buy a dog from and they play a major part in the surplus animals we have in our shelters, you have got to wonder if there is conflict of interest somewhere??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bensam Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 I had not seen that article, as a matter of fact, I avoid that 'backyard'. He carries on about these 'designer dogs' being 'suitable' with never a mention of the hereditory or temperament problems in the individual breeds used to produce these. Dedicated breeders have been trying, and succeeding a lot of the time, to eliminate these problems from their lines and now this person spitefully has on National television a program which totally undermines the work being done AND promotes puppy farms! :evilbat: Hobbit, what do you think about this crossing of breeds, saying they're healthier, better temperament, etc. on these first generation crosses, how can anyone know this yet? This person is, in my opinion, creating a big problem, and encouraging more puppy farms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 [quote name='Bensam']I had not seen that article, as a matter of fact, I avoid that 'backyard'. He carries on about these 'designer dogs' being 'suitable' with never a mention of the hereditory or temperament problems in the individual breeds used to produce these. Dedicated breeders have been trying, and succeeding a lot of the time, to eliminate these problems from their lines and now this person spitefully has on National television a program which totally undermines the work being done AND promotes puppy farms! :evilbat: Hobbit, what do you think about this crossing of breeds, saying they're healthier, better temperament, etc. on these first generation crosses, how can anyone know this yet? This person is, in my opinion, creating a big problem, and encouraging more puppy farms.[/quote] Yikes -- I didn't read any of the other articles written by Burk. My opinion is that nothing can be accomplished from a first generation cross between two different breeds. This is simply not enough information to be able to say "healthier", "better temperment", etc...this is the FIRST cross and how does he or ANYONE know what the outcome will be like ---- they haven't even seen the puppy grow up!! Yes, I think it's a hugh mistake, a very large problem, and IS encouraging more people to breed whatever will stick together for a buck and call it "Designer", healthy, better temperment, etc....when in fact can be substandard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 [quote name='Bensam']Even in the Kelpie segment he is putting a slur on the registered dogs. I have friends who breed and show Kelpies AND a number of their pups are also sold for working. It disgusts me that Mr Burke intimates that the registered dogs have not the brains to do the job they are bred for.[/quote] The "Bench/Show" Kelpies are different from the Working Kelpies. They are (usually) either a solid dark red, or solid black (no tan). Recently, some of the "Show" Kelpie breeders have been infusing the Working Kelpie bloodlines into their show-dogs and are producing offspring with the tan. This is not to say that a Working Kelpie can't be a solid color. The Buchanan bloodlines are notorious for producing solid black color; the Capree bloodlines produce the creme color. The Show Kelpies (most of them) are not being bred for herding, they are being bred specifically for a certain "look" with NO regard to herding instinct or ability. They are usually shown only at conformation classes. The Bench/Show Kelpies are registered in the Misc. Class with AKC (in the USA); Working Kelpies are registered with the NAAKR (North American Australian Kelpie Registry and if imported, they are registered with the WKC (Working Kelpie Council), in Australia. The WKC will not register and does not recognize the "Bench/Show" Kelpie. I'm not saying that your friends "Show" Kelpies are no-brainers; I'm just saying that the majority of people would not purchase a Kelpie from "show-dog" lines for working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bensam Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 I'll start by saying that I'm not really up with the background on Kelpies, but am interested to find out more. Was going to contact my friends with the Kelpies but they are away at the moment and I'm hate waiting for anything, so went looking. Looked in the Working Kelpie Assoc of Aust. and found that when they started the Assoc. they tried for some time to involve the State Canine Bodies in the formation of the Assoc. but, as the various State bodies are still doing, they could not get any co-operation, so went ahead on their own. Reading their standard for the breed, it is practically identical in word and meaning to the conformation standard while stressing that cosmetic features do not matter as much ie. eye shape,coat length, etc. It states 'medium size' while the conformation standard gives 18" to 20" dogs, 17" to 19" bitches, which I would take to be medium. Colours for conformation are basically the same, black, black/tan, etc. I have seen most of these colours in the conf. ring. Couldn't find the standard for the conformation Kelpie in America,(probably my fault, I still get lost on this thing!) but did find one of the American Working Assoc. sites where their standard for height was somewhat taller, dogs to 23". As mentioned in my last post, I know of some conformation bred Kelpies working on farms quite successfully and wonder if it's not so much inability to do this rather the lack of opportunity, it would be interesting to see what would happen if more had the chance. Another thing I will try and find out, one Kelpie I know of works sheep, competes in trials and shows in the conf. ring. I wonder if this bitch has to be registered with the Working Kelpie Assoc. to enter these trials? I hope this is taken as meant, a discussion, I'm just interested, not trying to start any arguements and would appreciate any comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Here are some good websites to view. The first is the US registry. They second is the registry in Australia. The third has lots of information on foundation working Kelpies. [url]http://www.kelpiesinc.com/[/url] [url]http://members.iinet.net.au/~wkc/[/url] [url]http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/6392/index.html#THE[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Working Kelpies vs Bench Kelpies. [color=red][b]Working Kelpie [/b][/color] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Glenlogie+Lucky.jpg?bc18D59AQnN17JTG[/img] [b][color=darkred]Bench Kelpie[/color][/b] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Show+Kelpie+black.jpg?bc18D59AFMdd5NX3[/img] [b][color=red]Working Kelpie[/color][/b] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Reggie+head+shot+good+051302.jpg?bcF1E59AnU8NR_NH[/img] [color=darkred][b]Show Kelpie[/b][/color] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e2d2be0e/bc/My+Documents/Show+Kelpie+head.jpg?bcF1E59A2BHe3_mc[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bensam Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Thanks, Hobbit. The first two links I had seen, the third one, lot of food for thought in that one! I didn't know there was such bad blood between the two factions, again what hope have dogs got when us humans can't act civilised! I missed a golden opportunity a few years ago. Chris Howe, mentioned in the third site, also had trotting horses and I knew him quite well through those, as I was also involved with them back then, never realised he was also the Kelpie man! I know pics can be very deceiving, I've had some of my dogs that don't even look like the same breed :lol: - the show kelpie in the pic. wouldn't win any awards here, too short in body, no front or rear angulation, but then as I said pics aren't always true. Thanks for the interesting info. I'll keep looking around on here, and while I can appreciate the differences in the working ability, I don't think there is a lot of difference in the basic conformation of our workers and showies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadyLady Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 I was under the impression (Bensam ) that the Kelpies werent recognized by VCA ect thats why they started their own register and the moment you start up a registra you limate the gene pool to the dogs in those register and that is what creates the different appearence. I had a similar experience with the koolie where half the club was breeding non workers(or that should be untried) and the other half was into proven working dogs and eventually it caused division as the working koolies believed the non worker to be unproven and not worthy of breeding from also the non workers tended to breed more for looks and colour I think this is also the case with Border collies here the difference between the showies and the worker is huge its quite obvious which is which .As for the American bench Kelpies Im with you Bensam they look nothing like the Aussie Kelpies :o In the article on burkes backyard there is no mention of the Glesons Kelpie which is a well known part of their history it makes me wonder about the politics going on in the background .Over here we have an annual Kelpie festival held in Casterton to celebrate the Kelpie at this they have an aution of the dogs after a display of them working and last years average price was 1500 dollars. (If you havent noticed I hang out with alot of Kelpie people :roll: )As for the temperment thing I have met many Kelpies who are people aggressive my dad has one that guards his caravan park one night she protected my mum from a group of drunken youths I believe because they are so one eyed to their owners it makes them protective This is why I didnt buy one myself as I have young children .On the subject of Don Burke I was told (dont know if its true or not) that he actually is part owner of a puppy mill which would make sense why he defends them :x I know Im probably going to offend you Hobbit by some of my comments but I am around a lot of Kelpies here in Australia and it is possible that the American temperment could be different than it is over here :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 [quote name='Bensam']- the show kelpie in the pic. wouldn't win any awards here, too short in body, no front or rear angulation, but then as I said pics aren't always true. [/quote] That's hilarious that you should say that about the show Kelpie --- he is champion on top of champion. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 [quote name='working koolie'] I know Im probably going to offend you Hobbit by some of my comments but I am around a lot of Kelpies here in Australia and it is possible that the American temperment could be different than it is over here :-?[/quote] Koolie --- I take no offense to your comments. I am secure in my breeding of my dogs, their temperment, their working ability, their bloodlines and every aspect of their being. I have herding dogs, not show dogs. My dogs are from imported working bloodlines and work livestock, they have never seen nor will they ever see a show ring for "looks". I, too, have been around a lot of Kelpies --- both imports from Australia and American bred (which came from imported bloodlines). Every dog has had a bit of a different personality, they are not like stone casts --- they are all individuals. The majority of working Kelpies are not bred for protection, they are bred for herding. When a person needs a working a dog, they don't ask how many conformation shows has he been too, or how burglars he has chased off ----- he asks to see him (if he's old enough) work. No offense meant to a show person, this is what they want to do --- so they don't go looking for a working Kelpie, they go looking for a show bred Kelpie and ask how many champions are on the pedigree. Some of the Kelpie breeders are trying to *improve* the bite or lack there of in the Kelpie and are crossing them with Pit Bulls --- this causes an offspring that is a tail and nose swinger. They rip up ears, noses and tails --- whatever they can get their teeth on. That is not to say they all do this, but the majority do (when crossed with a APBT) --- no offense meant to the APBT's. Personally, I don't "need" to improve my Kelpies by crossing them with any other breed --- How do you improve excellence? :wink: Yeah, that sounds smug, but the way to *improve* anything is with selective breeding. A dog that is not sound will not make it in the working world, he'll break down. Looks and color are just added spice in the working dog and are normally the last thing considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bensam Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 Well, all I can say about that Champ. upon Champ. is if that is a true pic. of the dog, you certainly have a different type in the show ring over there and I can see why you wouldn't want to breed with that type for working apart from whatever instinct is missing, the conformation for a worker is all wrong. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the standard of the show kelpie, as written by our ANAKC and the standard for the working kelpie, as written by the WKC, are identical, ie. angulation, length of body, body type, feet, etc. Gen. Appearance (from show standard) "The general appearance shall be of a lithe, active dog of great quality, showing hard muscular condition combined with great suppleness of limb and conveying the capability of untiring work. It must be free from any suggestion of weediness." From 'Body'- (part) "The length of the dog from the forechest in a straight line to the buttocks, is greater than the height at the withers as 10 is to 9." I can appreciate that the worker is not going to have the polish of the show dog, but under the glamour there must still be the basic foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadyLady Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 I too agree that as an owner of working dogs I would not select from non working parents as if the pups not old enough you want to see the parents work at least. As for temperment I wasnt talking in particular about your dogs Hobbit just from my general experience and I would hate for someone to read the posts thinking they are always even tempered .I would have to look it up but I think the kelpie makes the top ten biters in Australia I agree totally about the crossing with APBT we are lucky in Australia that we have a diverse range of kelpies that you can select from an eye dog to a hard hitting cattle dog( even seen them back cows) In my trialling it is perfectly legal for a nose bite or on the top knot and many of the kelpies do this it is not a fault but an effective means to either move sheep or to protect themselves.I agree that soundness and instinct are the most important qualities in a working dog and that is what I look for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bensam Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 Just a little add-on note, I'm certainly not saying that the workers should compete in the show ring or vice versa, the point I'm trying to make is that our show kelpies are structurally built the same as the workers (or going on the standard are supposed to be :lol: ) I think the Aussie show Kelpies appear to have followed the ideal type for working and it's a pity that the majority of them have probably never even seen a sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted October 29, 2002 Author Share Posted October 29, 2002 [quote name='working koolie']On the subject of Don Burke I was told (dont know if its true or not) that he actually is part owner of a puppy mill which would make sense why he defends them :x[/quote] A-HA!!!! I thought there may have been some (euphemistically termed) "conflict of interest" going on there... :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 [quote name='working koolie']I too agree that as an owner of working dogs I would not select from non working parents as if the pups not old enough you want to see the parents work at least. As for temperment I wasnt talking in particular about your dogs Hobbit just from my general experience and I would hate for someone to read the posts thinking they are always even tempered .I would have to look it up but I think the kelpie makes the top ten biters in Australia I agree totally about the crossing with APBT we are lucky in Australia that we have a diverse range of kelpies that you can select from an eye dog to a hard hitting cattle dog( even seen them back cows) In my trialling it is perfectly legal for a nose bite or on the top knot and many of the kelpies do this it is not a fault but an effective means to either move sheep or to protect themselves.I agree that soundness and instinct are the most important qualities in a working dog and that is what I look for[/quote] You are right, they ALL aren't even tempered (no breed of dog are ALL even tempered). I guess, on an average, they are pretty good tempermented. Yes, some can be nasty sometimes. Out of the one nasty, there are 50 that are good even tempered (speaking of here, USA). When I say they "swing" on the tail, nose and ears. I am talking literally taking hold and won't release until whatever they have ahold of rips off (piece of the ear, part of the tail, piece of the nose, skin, etc). That is certainly not something I would want to work my stock. Work stock then spend 1/2 a day suturing up the bloody ones ---- not my idea of a good working dog. If the animal is being belligerent or trying to kill the dog -- oh yeah, absolutely bite the snot out of him and I'll be right there helping to get the animal off the dog. But to be biting just because a dog is too rough, that's no excuse. The Kelpie is not one of the top ten biters in America. Most people (non-working) have never even heard of a Kelpie. :wink: (or a Koolie!! LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadyLady Posted October 30, 2002 Share Posted October 30, 2002 Black/blue I have heard this from a couple of people so I am guessing there might be something in it!?! Never been keen on his show since I heard this :x Hobbit I actually read a book on Working dog stories in Australia and a guy up North has been crossing his Blue heelers with bull terriers for years to get the lock jaw effect as he musters wild cattle(or ferals) These dogs latch on and hold the beast till the blokes get there to rope them .Aparently the cattle will seperate and hide in the scrub so the dog finds them and holds them , these are big Brahman cattle he was talking about and according to him he loses (gets killed) nearly all his dogs each season which is pretty sad. How long have the Kelpies been in America ? I could look it up but Im being lazy( ha ha) Its no wonder noones heard of a koolie in America I dont believe they have them we sent them a couple and they had to make em look like Lassie and chop their tails off!! Koolies arent we known here in Australia they are considered a rare breed by the RSPCA Id have to agree with you Bensam about the looks of the showies(kelpies) although the solid reds are discriminated against by working owners (they call them show dogs!!) :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 bk -- you were talking about the price of the working dogs -- here is the website for the Red Bluff Gelding and Bull Sale in Red Bluff, California. It's held every year the last of Jan/first of Feb. Check out the site and look under "working cow dogs" --- it has the price listed of what the dogs were sold for. [url]http://www.redbluffbullsale.com/index.htm[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 [quote name='working koolie']Black/blue I have heard this from a couple of people so I am guessing there might be something in it!?! [b][color=darkred]Not following you here Koolie --- what are you referring too? I lost that train of thought somewhere. :wink: [/color][/b] Hobbit I actually read a book on Working dog stories in Australia and a guy up North has been crossing his Blue heelers with bull terriers for years to get the lock jaw effect as he musters wild cattle(or ferals) These dogs latch on and hold the beast till the blokes get there to rope them .Aparently the cattle will seperate and hide in the scrub so the dog finds them and holds them , these are big Brahman cattle he was talking about and according to him he loses (gets killed) nearly all his dogs each season which is pretty sad. [b][color=red]Oh yeah, Brahman cattle (ones that aren't worked often) can be pretty gritty to work, they DO run and hide in high grass, brush, briars, thick trees, gullies, canyons, anything they can. Lots of folks here use Catahoula's, Yellow Mouth Cur, Black Mouth Cur, and combinations there of to work wild cattle (some of these have Pit crossed in there). Heelers are being replaced by these breeds plus the Border Collie and Kelpie --- at a rapid rate. It is very hard to find a good bred working Heeler. [/color][/b] [b][color=darkred]Knowing the Heeler like I do and their attitude, dog aggressiveness, etc..., why would anyone cross a Heeler with a Pit Bull or ANY breed that is also dog aggressive. They would spend more time fighting than working. [u]Good bred [/u]Heelers are gritty enough to work wild cattle without any other breed infused in there. Just my opinion. [/color][/b] How long have the Kelpies been in America ? I could look it up but Im being lazy( ha ha) [b][color=red]The Working Kelpie originated around 1870, playing a major role in the development of the sheep and wool industry in Australia. The Working Kelpie has been in North American since shortly after the turn of the century. [/color][/b] Its no wonder noones heard of a koolie in America I dont believe they have them we sent them a couple and they had to make em look like Lassie and chop their tails off!! [b][color=darkred]The Australian Shepherd is the American answer to the Koolie. They were all very good working dogs BEFORE AKC make them a recognized breed. AKC show people starting breeding just for "LOOKS" and not herding instinct. They have just about bred all the working ability out of the Aussie. Now, good luck in finding an Aussie that will work. There are very few around that have the instinct left to work. [/color] [/b] Koolies arent we known here in Australia they are considered a rare breed by the RSPCA Id have to agree with you Bensam about the looks of the showies(kelpies) although the solid reds are discriminated against by working owners (they call them show dogs!!) :-? [b][color=red]Some working Kelpies do come in solid red (Elfinvale Timmy, is a good example), but you are right all the show dog people prefer the solid red. The Buchanan line of working Kelpies produce solid black dogs sometimes (SSS Babe is a good example of an excellent solid black bitch that works). [/color][/b] [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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