Early desexing (corgilady)

[Aroura]

I'm writing this following a conversation in another topic about early desexing. Corgilady asked me if I could find out of any studys of the benifits of early desexing. (Sorry about spelling mistakes, I'm really tired...)
Anyway, I've been kinda busy and havn't been able to get to the vets to ask them, but I asked about it on another forum. So corgilady, just some suggestions for your article from what other people have said :D

*For the average pet owner the first heat can be the first litter.

* Re: waiting for the first heat - "many bitches can go through a temperment change just like women at this time(nasty,timid & sooky),some bitches may phamton, and ofcourse she will bleed all through the house (furniture,carpet etc ) so one must be prepared for that . I say fixing is the simpliest less hassle way "

*"I have all my rescues desexed shortly after coming into care if they are over 8 weeks. If under that age, then I wait until they are 8 weeks old. I do not know of any vet that will desex younger than 8 weeks of age. Most vets still won't desex at 8 weeks. The reasons I've been given are usually like "It's too fiddly".
The thing is that pups at 8 weeks (or 10 or 12 weeks) recover much faster than older pups. I would only ever go to a vet experienced with desexing young pups though. They are under anaesthetic for a shorter time, they wake faster and are up and eating and playing by late afternoon unlike say, a 6 month old who will mope around or just want to curl up and sleep for 2 days... not that this is a bad thing, but they hurt more).
Young pups heal much faster. Stitches can usually be taken out after 3 or 4 days rather than 7-10 days. The risk of busting stitches and having everyhting fall out is almost zero. (I have had over 100 pups done at 8 weeks, and this has never happened!). They have less reactions to internal stitches than older dogs and like everyone has said, having rescues being adopted undesexed (even as a wee pup) is just asking for someone to call me in 8 months saying they need to surrender a litter because they just never got around to getting her desexed! "

*Someone also wrote about their dog who was a year old when desexed and died at a young age of mammery cancer and has never waited for the first season since because of the traumer the family had to go through by loosing their dog to something that could have so easily been prevented.

Hope this helps! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, I know this info was for corgildy, but thamks anyways.Cuz I was about to post a question about the best possible earliest age of desexing.I always thought we couldn't do it before the dog was six months old but now I guess it's better to do it earlier.Duck is 9 weeks old now, and I was thinking of taking her next week.What's your opinion on that?Cuz I don't want an accident to happen before she gets spayed.Like somebody else on this forum.I think it was Rowie-the-pooh.I'm not sure though.Sorry if that offended you. :oops: Just remembered somebody scheduled it but then the dog came in heat and they had to schedule it for later or something.

[Guest Anonymous]

Whhoops.That last post was from me.I'm on another computer and I forgot to sign in.Now I'm too lazy, so just telling you it was me, eggrolyn1223. :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

:D No offence here :D

But Rowie didn't have Puppies or anything...she just came into heat ya'Know? :D

Hows Ducky?

[Hobbit]

Now playing the devils advocate....in order to have any validation to the information that a non-desexed dog faces the life of cancers and tumors -- someone should post the case studies from the AVMA (if in America) and the AVA (if from Australia). Until someone posts case studies proving this fact, there are still going to be (countless) people out there that will contend that spaying/neutering is not necessary.

[bk_blue]

Oooh playing with fire Hobbit! :wink:
Any dog or bitch that is not intended for breeding should be neutered/spayed. To do otherwise is tantamount to cruelty to the poor animal that has to deal with the many health and/or behavioural problems associated with leaving the animal intact. Not to mention the owner who has another pre-menstrual female, or overly aggressive male, to deal with! :) Any dog can have any number of health problems, but surely desexing is a great way to eliminate some of them- and if we are responsible owners acting in the interests of our pets then they should be fixed pronto.
Why do you think there are so many poor dogs being subjected to gruesome deaths in shelters worldwide- because people don't neuter their animals. :evil: It is [b]always[/b] the dogs who pay the price for our lack of responsibility.
I'm looking on the AVA site but my computer is being slow- but if I find anything I will post it, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='bk_blue']Oooh playing with fire Hobbit! :wink:
Any dog or b**** that is not intended for breeding should be neutered/spayed. To do otherwise is tantamount to cruelty to the poor animal that has to deal with the many health and/or behavioural problems associated with leaving the animal intact. Not to mention the owner who has another pre-menstrual female, or overly aggressive male, to deal with! :) Any dog can have any number of health problems, but surely desexing is a great way to eliminate some of them- and if we are responsible owners acting in the interests of our pets then they should be fixed pronto.
Why do you think there are so many poor dogs being subjected to gruesome deaths in shelters worldwide- because people don't neuter their animals. :evil: It is [b]always[/b] the dogs who pay the price for our lack of responsibility.
I'm looking on the AVA site but my computer is being slow- but if I find anything I will post it, if someone doesn't beat me to it.[/quote]


Sugar, I am NOT against neutering and spaying. Your comment of, [b][i]"many health and/or behavioural problems associated with leaving the animal intact"[/i][/b] where are the case studies? Where is the proof? Now, calm down - put your hackles down, I hear and know what you are saying and AGREE --- hear me, I AGREE --- but in order to make the neuter/spay crusade effective, we - as educated dog people - MUST show the uneducated, unwilling, skeptics THE PROOF or "we" are fighting a losing battle. The poor unfortunate dogs [i]"[b]always[/b] the dogs who pay the price for our lack of responsibility". [/i] IAGREE.

[bk_blue]

Sorry Hobbit- wasn't having a go at you- I was just venting my frustration at those who believe that leaving the dog as nature intended is much better than fixing them, or making them better guard dogs. I know with male dogs they can be rather aggressive if not fixed- but there are some who are just as aggressive after the op. With bitches- I've never actually *had* an intact girl, but have only secondary knowledge (so not much :oops: )- if you can prevent cancer of the reproductive system by taking it out, then I'm all for it.
My main gripe is with people who just don't think that their dog could ever get out and get another one pregnant, or come home pregnant themselves. Then what happens to the pups... :cry:
So I really wasn't in attack mode- more not thinking straight (I need some sleep!) :wink:
And the stupid computer still hasn't downloaded the AVA site, after 30min... arrrgh.

[mouseatthebusstop]

Going to see my vet on Thursday I will make a comment then

[Hobbit]

Yeah bk, I know you were venting TO me and not AT me. I'm with you on all aspects, it's just been a b+tch trying to convince some people that spaying/neutering is the way to go --- no muss, no fuss and NO neighbor dogs hanging around! :wink:

Thanks Mouse. I spoke to my vet at length and he could not offer any case studies. It's easier to win an argument or crusade when you have facts and proof.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]To do otherwise is tantamount to cruelty to the poor animal that has to deal with the many health and/or behavioural problems associated with leaving the animal intact.[/quote]

Perhaps you should rethink your sweeping generalization. Not ALL females should be spayed before their first heat for medical reasons. My dog had to go through her first heat (just finished -- whew!) I am, in fact a responsible dog owner and because of my love for her waited for her first heat. Sure, if I took her to the local shelter or if she had been put into a shelter instead of me finding her on the street and keeping her, she would have been spayed before 6 months. But many females with her condition are spayed early and end up back at the shelter or are put on medicine for life or must undergo more surgery because they "dribble" urine. She had a tucked up vulva, and it is now corrected NATURALLY after her first heat.

I am all for spaying and neutering. And in all cases, this should be done as soon as is healthy for the dog. I just dislike the implication that I am a cruel owner because she was not fixed before her first heat.

I realize you [i]probably[/i] did not intent to lump responsible owners in with the others. Just wanted to let you know there are valid reasons for waiting, and those that do are often subject to this narrow point of view.

[Guest Anonymous]

[url]http://www.king.igs.net/~brica/esp.htm[/url]
[url]http://infoweb.magi.com/~cfhs/fact.htm[/url]

Here are some links on early spay/neuter!

[bk_blue]

Mag- I wasn't querying [i]when[/i] the right time to spay is, more that it should be done unless planning to breed from the animal. If you have to wait until the first heat is over, that's fine- you do have to put your dog's health first, I absolutely agree with that... just have to be extra-vigilant at keeping her inside (and her suitors out! :wink: )
I've got no experience at all with intact bitches, and was too young to remember when our 2 females got done... I support spaying and neutering, [i]when [/i]the right age to do it is a Pandora's box I don't want to open! :wink:

[Horsefeathers!]

Around here, (rural southeast US), the primary reason for people not having their pets spayed/neutered is just plain ol' cheapness and apathy. All the education in the world doesn't do a thing for the select not-so-few who really just don't care one way or the other. After all, that's what the shelter is there for... to take the puppies that you couldn't "get rid of," yourself ("you" in the broad categoric sense, ya know?). Despite being a rural area, we have a couple of amazing shelters who dump huge amounts of their limited funds into mass education campaigns and certificates and low cost spay/neuter options, but too many people just don't care. It's not that they have some hidden agenda behind their well-thought-out-though-ill-advised decisions. They just don't care. How do you cure people of apathy? I get so frustrated. If the dogs roam loose, get killed on the highways, or by another free roaming, intact dog, oh well... the solution is to just get another dog from someone else just like them, too sorry to spay their dog. They aren't swayed by statistics, or sad stories. This is not to say that no one here spays/neuters their pets. I'm just angry about the many who don't, but they don't even try to pretend that it was a well thought out decision. Not really going anywhere with this. Just a vent. :x

Anyhoo, about the early spay/neuter thing... my vet will do it as early as 8 weeks on puppies and kittens coming in from the shelter and they do heal amazingly fast. A week later, there is barely even a visible scar from the surgery. Still, for the general public, he does typically advise to wait until 6 months of age. He says that's just because too many people are way too uncomfortable with the idea of doing it much earlier, so he just gives them "traditional" advice.

[Guest Anonymous]

On lthe links I gave there apparently has been research done on this.. The main worry was the affects on younger pups weight gain, bone growth, and maturity.. None was affected. In Vet. school however they do not teach vets to do this procedure at such a young age there for many vets are "weary" or rather were weary of this but with the rise in euth. in shelters most have began to preform this surgery.

It reduces urinary infections, mammary tumors in females. Males are less agressive, to do not stray from home,and both sexes tend to bond more to family. Of course the vet should see the dog first and decide what is right for your dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

so you all are saying there are no bad side effects to spaying at say, 12 weeks ? i was concerned about this with my puppy, the pound i adopted her from will not release dogs without them going to the spay/neuter clinic first if they are over eight weeks. apparently they are very firm about this because they have had so many four month old puppys coming in pregnant. i heard or read somewhere that spayed females won't develop their "secondary female characteristics" if spayed too young.........

[Guest roo]

[quote name='marble']so you all are saying there are no bad side effects to spaying at say, 12 weeks ? i was concerned about this with my puppy, the pound i adopted her from will not release dogs without them going to the spay/neuter clinic first if they are over eight weeks. apparently they are very firm about this because they have had so many four month old puppys coming in pregnant. i heard or read somewhere that spayed females won't develop their "secondary female characteristics" if spayed too young.........[/quote]
in all the years i have been in dogs i have never ever ever heard of a bitch that became in whelp at 4 months old.... cats yes, the earliest i have heard of a bitch in proper season is 5 months....
if the bitch was 4 months and found to be in whelp, at the earliest that would have made her 14 weeks :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
please enlighten me
Roo :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

all i know is that i asked about it at the pound, because i always thought you were supposed to wait till six months and my puppy at the time i was adopting her was only 12-14 weeks. all they said was that they had made it a rule that dogs of a certain age and weight, i think eight pounds or ten weeks, had to be spayed because "they were seeing so many four month old females coming in pregnant". the place is run by the cops and they are all pretty curt. they are okay once they know you a little bit but they have to deal with some seriously wacko people in there so i guess they develop a certain toughness.......that's all i know.

[Hobbit]

Roo, I'm with you. I've never ever seen or even heard of a 4 month old in whelp. That is only 16 wks old. Naaaaa......it's just a story those guys made up to make their point. :wink:

[Aroura]

[quote name='mag']Not ALL females should be spayed before their first heat for medical reasons. My dog had to go through her first heat (just finished -- whew!) I am, in fact a responsible dog owner and because of my love for her waited for her first heat. Sure, if I took her to the local shelter or if she had been put into a shelter instead of me finding her on the street and keeping her, she would have been spayed before 6 months. But many females with her condition are spayed early and end up back at the shelter or are put on medicine for life or must undergo more surgery because they "dribble" urine. She had a tucked up vulva, and it is now corrected NATURALLY after her first heat.[/quote]

It is another myth that some dogs will dribble if desexed BEFORE the first heat, if a dog is going to dribble, its going to dribble. I have this problem with Tessa. I beleived many of the popular myths that it is best to wait until after the first heat, so I waited (although I wish I hadn't, a pit kept on jumping the fence and we couldn't keep the neibourhood dogs out of our yard, so Tessa had to spend the whole time inside, but the real reason I wish I hadn't waited is because now I have put her life at risk by significantly increasing the risk of cancer...). Anyway, Tessa is now a dribbler. It doesn't bother us, she has her own bed inside which can be put in the sun if she does dribble, but she has somewhat learnt to control it. Our other dog, Puddles, was desexed before her first heat. She has never had a problem.
A good reason for early desexing, as I have found out over the past few days with Lily (she came into heat yesterday, she is not desexed as she is intended for breeding), is that b+tches in heat are really b+tchy!!! I have broken up at least 4 fights between her and Tessa over the past 3-4 days. They're not just little tiffs either, I was actually afraid to break one up yesterday for fear of my hand being taken off! They have been seperated and will be until Lily settles down.
Another reason, that hasn't been stressed, is that dogs should be walked every day, the 4 weeks dogs spend in heat locked inside is enough to send any healthy dog crazy!
Thanks for the studys Jacksmom, that is just what we needed to see. I'm wondering if anyone can find any studys in relation to the cancer issue?

[corgilady]

Oh wow! Thanks aroura for this thread!

A few comments....
Hobbit, when you call women "sugar", your southern charm is showing :)

I have never heard of an animal whelping at 4 months either...seems like ONE of us would have heard of it if it were true.

I have a student whose family "got rid of" their child's cat becuase it became pregnant. (not sure of the method used here :cry: )They then got another cat, also a female, and - surprise!- it got pregnant too so now they have cats and kittens. We live in a county that offers a low-cost spay/neuter program to families that qualify....I'm sure they qualify. :cry: Some people are just toooooo stupid. I have called the grandmother and told her about the spay/neuter; hopefully she can get them to do it.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am still recovering from a shelter/rescue telling someone four month old dogs come in to their shelter in whelp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o 16 wks old!!Okay breathe!!

[Guest Anonymous]

Another thought..... Females carry pups for 61-63 days so that would make the female say 2 months old at conception!!!! :o :o 8 weeks.... okay I will give them a month out of the kindness of my heart and say 3 months..12 weeks!!!!!! :roll: :o PLEASE

[Hobbit]

It's an example of the "even blinder, leading the blind".

[Guest Anonymous]

I suppose but I wonder if they ever had a rational and someone who would say something to them come up there!!! Boy would that be interesting to hear their reply then!! Just makes me wonder how people respond to things when they tell such things and then are cornered with facts and numbers..... If you are going to require something at least have an ACTUAL reason with some proof and legit reasons!