Poofy Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 When the this practice began, it was probably done for a couple of reasons. First, there were not as many homes available. Second spaying/neutering was not as accessible and in order to protect the breed you had too. And third, not understanding the truth as to why the dogs were mis-marked and superstisions surrounding such colors. This is why some people are breeders and some are not....and this is also why breeding practices change over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ickle Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Most of these faults mentioned in this topic can happen in correctly coloured dogs not just the poor malined mismarks. ( Do not hear about these though cause it is so much easier to pick on one that does not conform to the breed standard & colour code than admit this occurs) I personally like white dogs having Japanese Spitz & a pied frenchie. as part of my family. It should be the owners job to see they do not get sunburned by using a sun block and adequate shelter from the sun. Ickle :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Its kinda of like kids who were left handed. There were many superstisions about them, in some cultures they were left to die(starve to death) and in others, some not so "mid-evil" the parents would tie the left hand behind the child and force them to use the right hand. All because they were different and used the left hand instead of the right hand which was considered normal. I would have to say that killing a dog for its color is something I would never do, all colors are beautiful and shouldn't be a death sentence. I know that in other breeds there is a color standard, but these mismark dogs can always be altered and sold to loving pet homes. Glad that I dont have to deal with hte color thing in the APBT, but I would put a dog down with a major defect that would restrict its quality of life or only life a short time and cause heart ach to the owners and suffereing to the animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlabsrule Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Okay, showing my ignorance of colors again. What is a pure white merle? That seems like a contradiction of terms. Oooooh, my head hurts. Help me! [/quote] Ok, I'm not that good at this, but I'll guess. When you breed two merle dogs (Mn & Mn) You can get 2 merle hair coats, 1 non merle hair coat, and 1 double merle. Double merles are usually almost completely white with blue eyes and may have small amounts of gray or darker color. They also may have lots of heath problems including deafness, small eyes (called microopthalmia that results in diminished eyesight as well as chronic infections in the membranes that line the eye socket), some are completely blind, serious heart defects, and short life spans (researchers think that many double merles probably die as fetuses during pregnancy). Although many double merles are sterile, some are capable of successfully reproducing and breeders use them in selective matings with non-merle dogs. Due to the complete dominance of the "M' gene, all puppies from a double merle and any other non-merle mate will have merle coats with minimal likelihood of congenital defects. Here's a website: [url]http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Merle.html[/url] Wouldn't Hobbit be proud of me??? :lol: (actually I had a little help for january's issue of dog world. :oops: :lol: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlabsrule Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Actually I think that website supports the breeding of merles, sooo... I think there are some pics on there of "MM"s if your curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlabsrule Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Here are some pics of double merles :x [img]http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/photos/Double.gif[/img] Not sure if this one is: [img]http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/photos/Fly.gif[/img] Ok, the more I look at that site, the more I think it's messed up! :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlabsrule Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Well while I'm on messed up sites here's one! :x [url]http://www.myaussies.com/[/url] Mmmm... not sure if it's supporting breeding or not. I guess you'll have to decide for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Here's a sitte that explains how dapples and double dapples get their patterns... it also tells how they end up with the large white pathces and/or entirely white. [url]http://www.dachshund.org/article_double_dapple.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlabsrule Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Off the website: I have seen double dapple puppies born with no eyes, and/or no ears. Born with NO eyes?? No ears? EWWWW!! :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 There are reasons to do a merle to merle breeding. When a double dilute is used in a blue merle breeding program, it can help correct color faults and or "pewter" discoloration in the coat. There is an increased risk for having no ears or eyes due to the doubling of the merle gene...however those "defects" are not "inheritable" as they are associated only with the presence of M in homozygous form. Most dogs do have their eyes and eye sight, deafness is more common...however there are many that are also normal. Its one of those choices a breeder has to decide if they are capable of making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 [quote name='Poofy']There are reasons to do a merle to merle breeding. When a double dilute is used in a blue merle breeding program, it can help correct color faults and or "pewter" discoloration in the coat. There is an increased risk for having no ears or eyes due to the doubling of the merle gene...however those "defects" are not "inheritable" as they are associated only with the presence of M in homozygous form. Most dogs do have their eyes and eye sight, deafness is more common...however there are many that are also normal. Its one of those choices a breeder has to decide if they are capable of making.[/quote] [b]I am yet pirating a dial-up server computer, STILL have NO access from a DSL server! So, I can't respond back to any inquiries. [/b] A merle-merle breeding would not "clean-up" the color. More than likely the offspring from this mating would be white with minimum amounts of color. If a high percentage color pup was produced, the color would be lighter than normal. Most people do not have the knowledge of genetics and thinks the only way to obtain a merle is to breed merle to merle. This, of course, is not true. Merle to solid will produce merle (and solid). Yes, a double merle bred to a black solid will produce an entire litter of merles. Breeding merle to merle is taking a chance ............ at the expense of the pups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 You said: A merle-merle breeding would not "clean-up" the color. More than likely the offspring from this mating would be white with minimum amounts of color. If a high percentage color pup was produced, the color would be lighter than normal. Actually, you are incorrect on this one. As I have seen it done and utilized in sheltie and collie breeding programs. These double dilutes, when bred do produce better blue merles then those who may be merle and carry discoloration in the coat. The F1 generation, the all white or nearly all white blue merle, is not the goal, its the offspring of that dog and what it will produce. That is really the only reason I have seen people do these breedings. Now, *why*, it is like that...I have no idea.....I have a hypothosis as to why, but its not in relation to the double merle. Since M only works on black pigment, dogs who are MM and do not carry excessive brown coloration (pewter tinge) to their coat, will come out with a clear high blue to white color, those that have it would/should still be discolored. That high blue is highly sought after in shelties. So those are then bred and they are less likely to produce that discoloration. Who know...all I can tell you is that is why the MM is often sought after as a dog in a blue merle/tri breeding program. Most people do not have the knowledge of genetics and thinks the only way to obtain a merle is to breed merle to merle. This, of course, is not true. Merle to solid will produce merle (and solid). Yes, a double merle bred to a black solid will produce an entire litter of merles. Yup, you are correct. But I am not reffering to the average person, I am reffering to true knowledgable breeders. Breeding merle to merle is taking a chance ............ at the expense of the pups. As with any breeding. You take the life of those dogs in your hands when you bring them into the world. No its not a simple choice...but those who have made it wisely, have reaped the benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Gladis does not meet the breed standard for a shar-pei. It did not notice untill she was about 4 months old her fur is too long the longest it should be is 1 inch on some parts of her she has over 2 inches. We have had her sprayed. We love her just as much as Paddy. I think if the dog can have a normal life is should be sold on condition it is spayed/neutered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ickle Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Super pictures of double merle dogs both of them .Thanks for posting them Ickle :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 [quote name='Poofy']You said: A merle-merle breeding would not "clean-up" the color. More than likely the offspring from this mating would be white with minimum amounts of color. If a high percentage color pup was produced, the color would be lighter than normal. Actually, you are incorrect on this one. [color=red][b]No, I am not incorrect -- you have just not taken into consideration the rest of my post.[/b][/color] As I have seen it done and utilized in sheltie and collie breeding programs. [color=darkred][b]I have seen this in Australian Shepherds and Border Collies. [/b][/color]These double dilutes, when bred do produce better blue merles then those who may be merle and carry discoloration in the coat. The F1 generation, the all white or nearly all white blue merle, is not the goal, its the offspring of that dog and what it will produce. [color=red][b]When bred to a black, the merle that is produced is what you are taking about, so was I in the later portion of my post. [/b][/color] That is really the only reason I have seen people do these breedings. [color=darkred][b]This can be achieved in other ways, other than merle to merle mating. [/b][/color]Now, *why*, it is like that...I have no idea.....I have a hypothosis as to why, but its not in relation to the double merle. [color=red][b]I want very much to explain this, but since I am still pirating a computer and was threatened last night to be banned from the business....I do have time to elaborate. Wait, I just remembered....I may have explained this in a post to Working Koolie about merles. You'll have to find it, don't have time now. The gate keeper is sneering at me. Boy, I'd like to poke her beady eyes out!![/b][/color] Since M only works on black pigment, dogs who are MM and do not carry excessive brown coloration (pewter tinge) to their coat, will come out with a clear high blue to white color, those that have it would/should still be discolored. That high blue is highly sought after in shelties. [color=darkred][b]Are you referring to "Maltese Blue"? Well, I can't answer you if you respond!! This is killing me....you how much of a genetics nerd I am! [/b][/color]So those are then bred and they are less likely to produce that discoloration. Who know...all I can tell you is that is why the MM is often sought after as a dog in a blue merle/tri breeding program. Most people do not have the knowledge of genetics and thinks the only way to obtain a merle is to breed merle to merle. This, of course, is not true. Merle to solid will produce merle (and solid). Yes, a double merle bred to a black solid will produce an entire litter of merles. Yup, you are correct. But I am not reffering to the average person, I am reffering to true knowledgable breeders. [b][color=red]If they want to clean up a mismark, there are still other ways to go about it other than playing with fire (merle to merle). That's the lazy way. [/color][/b] Breeding merle to merle is taking a chance ............ at the expense of the pups. As with any breeding. [color=darkred][b]Not like you are with merle to merle, KNOWING that this mating could result in fatal results. [/b][/color] You take the life of those dogs in your hands when you bring them into the world. No its not a simple choice...but those who have made it wisely, have reaped the benefits. [color=red][b]It doesn't matter how long a person has been breeding --- there is no way to tell how many lethal's will be produced from a merle to merle mating.[/b][/color] [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I know how and why, when M is homozygous that the coat is clearer. However, it seems to me that Bowling, insinuates that M in either heterozygous or homozygous form, should be looked at and considered individually. Now, as to why, MM produces a BETTER merle then M, is up in the air really, there is no real scientific data that I can find...however, the proof is in the pudding when you look at the production record of the few, quality MM dogs produced, and their offspring. I agree with you that its a risk. A HUGE risk...and one that should not be taken lightly...however it is (and should be) a breeder's choice in the end. Hope you can get back online again soon...miss chatting genetics with you. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Oh well, can't really say much about genetics or anything... :oops: I have a white Boxer, he was the only white puppy in the litter. He was half the price of other puppies, and is registered in [size=2](I don't know how to say this in english..)[/size] the "not-for-breeding-register" :) I love him more than anything, but if we have another boxer, I believe he/she will be the "normal" coloured boxer, because we've had a few health problems with this one. And definitely from the same breeder, she's great :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Welcome Panther! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.