humboldt505 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 i have a question. obviously. what happens when a dog is born to a breeder that has coloring (i am not sure how to word this) that is not akc aproved for it's breed? Like an all white boxer. I hope i have somewhat worded this clearly. I have heard some bad things about this situation, and just didn't want to further any myths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Do you mean like the "white dobes" that we were talking about before... is that what your asking about? Like say I have a pure bred Boxer that's say Tan colored, and I breed her (and I'm not 15, but an actual breeder! LOL), and one or more of her pups are pure white (albino or not)? What will happen to the pups? Is that what you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Well, ANY DOG THAT IS NOT TO THE BREED STANDARD FOR COLOUR IS KNOWN AS A MISMARK :lol: What happens to them depends on the breeder really. some people sell them as pets only with no papers. some people register them as mismarks and sell them as pets. some people have them put to sleep at birth some people breed them and sell them as rare colours :x Roo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 All white Boxers are mismarks aren't they? I saw some advertised in the paper as "rare"... :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Yes these rare colours :o the other sad thing about that is that the people buying them have done no looking into their newly chosen breed at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Ok assuming that you have a litter of pups and 2 out of 6 are mismarks. What do you do with them? ie. price wise. Do you sell them cheaper because they cannot be bred/shown or do you sell them at full price with a spay/neuter contract, or do you try and rip people off? (the all-white Boxers I saw in the paper were the same price as their brindle and fawn siblings... is that normal, assuming all-white Boxers are a mismark?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Good question BK :-? I personally have never YET bred a mismark :lol: But all my pups have always been the same price. If i had a mismark, say a frenchie, i really do not know if i would sell it cheaper or the same price, yes show homes are nice, but the pet home will love the dog for what it is no matter what. If when i planned the harlie litter in the danes, that ended up with one dead puppy by ceasar :cry: . We had decided any whites to be pts. but if i had had merles or harlie mismarks, then they would have been a bit cheaper, it is a tricky question really depending on the breed etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 ok another thing. I personally would not care if I bought a mismarked puppy as I have no intention of breeding. BUT would the puppy be as genetically sound as its littermates, or would it be more subject to defects? (this would be my area of concern.) If the only fault is the colouring or marking of the puppy then charging full price with spay/neuter would be fine. But if they are genetically inferior to their siblings then what do you do? Maybe this is also dependent on the breed. eg. blue Dobes can have more skin problems than blacks, but blue is an accepted colour for the standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ickle Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Some breeders will sell these pups for the same price since it costs as much to rear these pups as it does the ones of correct colours.. [color=blue]They make sure the buyer knows the pup is purely a pet[/color] Ickle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Oh BK :-? Well me personally, if the pup was deformed PTS i would not knowingly breed life threatening faults etc. White i mean pure white harlies can be deaf or blind, not all but many that is why PTS. look at K's Elric, he is a mismark, but there is nothing else wrong with him. To be honest and dont all bash me here :lol: Blue frenchies are a big no no, if i ever bred one PTS In the uk lemon pieds are mismarked, in the usa they are a colour, hard choice here but 90% chance of Roo having them PTS As a breeder i am trying to improve the breed, to breed to the standard, not to breed faults or problems. and to be honest, often the best way is culling. if i had a bitch that had one litter and produced sub standard, deformed or pups with lifethreatening faults. then she would be spayed full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ickle Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 colour is a personal preference and lets be honest we only stick to the prescribed colours because the ruling body says we must but people who really just want a dog to love and be part of the family choose the dog despite the ruling body decisions Ickle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Oh, just to clarify things here. I HAVE NEVER EVER HAD TO CULL ANYTHING I HAVE NEVER HAD A MISMARK. BUT WHAT I HAVE SAID ON THE POST ABOVE IS WHAT I WOULD DO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 i THINK THAT I VERY TRUE K. I PERSONALLY DO NOT SEE ANYTHING WRING WITH A ST B MISMARK, HE COULD STILL DO THE JOB HE WAS BRED FOR, YOU JUST WOULD NOT SEE SO MUCH OF HIM IN THE SNOW :lol: BUT IF HE WAS PURE PURE WHITE WITH NO PIGMENT, THAT MAY BE A DIFFERENT MATTER. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 It must be tough being a breeder sometimes... :( I'm not being morbid on purpose but do you have many litters with deformities? Not you personally, but responsible breeders in general ie. you do all you can to breed to the standard and be ethical but you get faults anyhow. I suppose good breeding eliminates most of this and this is why it is (and bloody well should be!) pushed so much. I suppose the other thing is there are so many perfect puppies and dogs without homes it makes sense in a very scientific Peter Singer-type fashion to cull the puppies who aren't up to scratch. :( So in your chosen breeds colouring faults are linked to other faults? Is this common across most dogs? Our Basset had a slightly turned-in front leg and that is why she was called Nobby. Apart from that (and it was barely noticeable and didn't affect her walk) she was fine and healthy and lived till she was 14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ickle Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 [b]Hands Up [/b]I have bred mismarked Blue merle shelties and believe it or not these were the first puppies to be sold from the litters,They were well bred healthy little people with a right and the will to live . They lived long and happily with their chosen families and often spent their vacations with me and I do not regret letting them live to give love & enjoyment to these lovely people Ickle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 OH bk WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO TO ME TODAY :lol: I WOULD NOT CALL A SLIGHTLY TURNED OUT FRONT FOOT A DEFORMITY, IT MAY HAVE BEEN REARING IT MAY HAVE BEEN INHERITED. IT NEVER CAUSED NOBBY ANY TROUBLES. IN BULL BREEDS, CLEFT PALATES ARE VERY COMMON. NEVER BRED ONE, BUT IF I DID PTS. ONE EYED PUPPIES PTS SOME PROBLEMS DO NOT APPEAR UNTILL LATER IN LIFE eg, hips, patellas, hearts, etc etc It is hard to try to get across what i mean. a deformity ie cleft palate should not survive, yet when working for a dog food co, i was at crufts working and a lady came up to me and said i have to thank your puppy food for keeping my dog with a cleft palate alive, thats all we can feed him :o it had to be mushed down with water and fed by spoon or something (cant remember) this dog was 5 years old, could not eat natually without chocking and it all running out of his nose etc. this dog was sold to someone as a pedigree it was only a bit later she realised things were not right, vet said pts, she said no. i could not and would not sell something to anyone with this sort of problem, it is wrong. BK i dont think that being a mismark should cause other problems other than deaf, blind, infertile etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 :oops: Not trying to be difficult deliberately! :) I was just trying to see if a dog that had colouring not to the standard was not to the standard in other departments. No, a tiny thing like a bent leg is not something I would get rid of a dog for, nor colour (like Elric). Or a GSD or ACD's ears not standing. But something horrid like what you described with the cleft palate, to me that's not good quality of life and I would also pts if I was a breeder. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ickle Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Pure white merles are a different kettle of fish but as I have never bred one I have not had to make the pts decision.( Thank God) I believe some people have used them to improve the blue merle colour ( Not in UK). These pure whites could be blind , deaf or both. (I could not do that) Whites with coloured heads & ears as usually ok though and make super pets which are much admired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Well I personally do not like All white Apbt's wether they have a black nose/Rednose or even a pink nose(Which is a fault). They are accepted by the Standard(The AKC discourages them though). But I have seen that whites get sunburned more easily and have more sensitive skin in general. Sunburning may not be a problem if you do not live in a hot climate . If you keep your pet indoors all the time it is still a problem if you decide to go spend the day out with you and your dog on a sunny day at the lake or something like that. Maybe it depends on the bloodline because I have not seen very many WEll bred All white Apbt's but there are some out there. I also do not like the ticking or little spots(not patches but small spots)that a lot of predominately white dogs or all white dogs have. I have heard a lot of bad things about blues but I don't personally have them so I cannot say for sure. I know with Dacshunds you would not want to breed a dapple to a dapple and with Aussies You would not want to breed a merle to a merle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black GSD Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 [quote name='K']Kitty and Hilko did say that if Elric had been born even 8-10 years ago he would of been in a bucket of cold water as soon as becuse of the stigma to the breeders reputation :cry:[/quote] That is something that just burns my butt! I have no problem with having them PTS if there is a problem with the pup. Whether color related or not. BUT if it is just because they are the wrong color (or mismarked), that IMO is WRONG. NO one is perfect. Dogs and people included. Maybe the breeder needs to rethink their breeding the next time. The only reason folks do this is to make themselves or their dogs "look" better. Horse breeders do this all the time. Though usually the foal is just sold without papers if it is the "wrong" color. Mainly I see this with Paints and Appalosas. If the foal is born solid instead of having markings, they sell it without papers. That way they can lie and say that their stud is a higher percentage color producer than he really is. And if folks look it up with the breed Assoc. it looks like it is the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 [quote name='laduenda'] But I have seen that whites get sunburned more easily and have more sensitive skin in general. Sunburning may not be a problem if you do not live in a hot climate . If you keep your pet indoors all the time it is still a problem if you decide to go spend the day out with you and your dog on a sunny day at the lake or something like that. >>>>>>>> I know with Dacshunds you would not want to breed a dapple to a dapple and with Aussies You would not want to breed a merle to a merle.[/quote] There is also some speculation as to whether white APBTs and boxers have a higher incidence of skin cancer (more boxers than APBTs) because of the lack of melatonin (I think that's what it's called :oops: ). And even if you don't live in a hot climate, you/your dog can still get sunburned... as long as you have sun. In dachshunds, there is a lot of debate over double dapples, as well as dapple-pies (dapplexpiebald). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Dose she lick the sunscreen off? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Put in a bucket of cold water?????? No way.....that just doesn't EVEN SEEM RIGHT! :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humboldt505 Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 the reason i started this topic was because i really couldn't understand this practice of killing dogs because of the color of their fur, and nothing to do with detriment to health. It seems nothing but wrong. I think it's cr@p. I am not a breeder. I don't know very much about the whole deal, but when i heard my father-in-laws story it made me sick. A friend of his had a dog that had a litter of boxers and in that litter was one all white pup. IF my husbands dad had not stoped by at exactly the right moment that dog would have been dead. For the dumbest of reasons, it's fur. The dog Sunny has grown up to be an awesome pet. Never been a father and never will be but he has brought so much love into this world. If as a breeder you bring any dog that even has a chance for a happy life into this world i don't think you then have the right as nothing more than a human to end it at will. I could never bring myself to think of myself so highly as to play with life that way. You can't instigate the birth of puppies then kill them if you don't like the way they look. grrrhhhh this isn;'t to anyone in particular, it is just a subject eating away at my heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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