"New" Breeds?

[Westerlea]

I hate to bring this up, but I am wondering, when is it exactly that the cut-off date was set to where all purposefully bred mixes were to be announced as "New Breeds"? LOL
It seems that so many people are infatuated with these Designer Dogs, which I am certainly against. It makes me wonder, what do people think of the Leonberger? It was afterall a cross created for looks.
And what about those breeds in which have been virtually recreated? The little Lancashire Heeler is no new breed, but in the recent years the modern dog was "rebuilt" and is in every way shape and form (almost) what the original dog was. I know a few people with them, and I know the history on the original breed, and the only difference is down to the duck's guts. Appearance. That's about it.
The Hovawart is also a recreation. It was recreated in the 20th century to be a carbon copy of the original, which has been dated back to the 1220's, then called the Hofwarth.
The Dogo Argentino, though not a recreation, is in sense a New Breed as well, only it was bred for more than just appearance.
I think our point is that some of our beloved breeds, no matter how old we want them to be, are in fact very much fresh out of the oven.

[ObedienceGrrl]

Well.....look at how breeds change. Just the breed itsefl. Who remembers when Labs were medium sized dogs breed to run in and out of water all day long? Now, people brag about having 110 pound labs. Look at GSDs. The first pic is from AKCs website. The second is VA Ghandi von Arlett SchH3, Kkl 1a.


[img]http://www.akc.org/images/breeds/germshep.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.fleischerheim.com/Images/Ghandi.jpg[/img]

[TDG]

i don't think it's as much the fact that they are "new breeds" or "designer breeds".

the problem with all these fad crossbreeds is that they are generally not developed well and the breeders do not have a sound breeding program.

in the past, when a breed was developed, people picked the best, most healthy specimens that represented the animal they had set as a goal and mated them. from the litters again only the best specimens were used and so on.

if you look at those people who breed poodledoos and mapapoms or pugaloos or whatever ridiculous names they come up with - they don't care about genetics, health and temperament. their goal is to produce as many pups with as little cost and effort as possible to be able to sell them at the highest profit as quickly as possible.

it's all about the allmighty dollar. ask 100 of those breeders of "designer mutts" about hip and elbow clearances or testing for any other hereditary problems in their breeding stock. ask them about temperament and their particular reasons to breed X to Y. i guarantee that in 99 if not 100% of the cases you will not get the answers you'd like to hear from a responsible breeder who is interested in his or her breed and not just in making profit.

edited for typos. :drinking:

[AllAmericanPUP]

GSD's these days make me so sad.
Just looking at them makes me want to cry.

[AllAmericanPUP]

this is what a GSD should look like.
but as you can tell good ole breeders have basically ruined them
[img]http://www.encore-editions.com/dogs/dog2/dogsbymegargee/thm_germanshepherd.jpg[/img]

[ObedienceGrrl]

Both of my boys are COMPLETELY flat backed. There is NO slant to them at all. The breeder we got them from couldn't stand the 'new look' to them. I wonder how these dogs can even walk!! I does look so crippling....

[Seijun]

OT a little, but since the GSD was mentioned... the original GSD actually looked nothing like today's dogs or even the ones in the AKC illustrations. If a GSD from back then where to show up now, any shelter would label it a mix bred because they look so unlike today's GSDs. Here is a link with some pictures of them.
[url]http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm[/url]

I also saw a picture once of Hitler sitting with one of his GSD's which looked EXACTLY like a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (which is really what the original GSD's looked the most like). In fact, IMO the Czech dog is probably the closest we have to the original GSD. The original GSD was created using wolf/dog breedings. The Czech dog was made by taking a GSD in reintroducing "wolf blood" into the line, in a sense, bringing it back in time to what the original GSD had been.

~Seij

[ObedienceGrrl]

[quote name='Seijun']I also saw a picture once of Hitler sitting with one of his GSD's which looked EXACTLY like a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (which is really what the original GSD's looked the most like).[/quote]

Is this anything like a Sarloos Wolfhound?

[TDG]

[quote name='Seijun']The original GSD was created using wolf/dog breedings.[/quote]

actually that's not quite correct. one of the ancestors of the first dog von stephanitz bought for his breeding program [i]originated[/i] from a dog/wolf crrossbreeding. that's about it.

von stephanitz developed his breed based on the traditional german sheepherding dogs. these don't have much more of a background of an actual wolf than any other traditional breed out there. (by that i mean region specific working dogs.)

it is true that some breeders tried to develop the looks (and health, mainly susceptibility to distemper) of their lines by crossing in wolves, but von stephanitz was very much against this, since the obvious side effects of crossing in wolves were excessive prey drive, shyness, flight and nervousness - traits that were not desirable at all for the vision of a working dog he had and that are still faults in the breed standard until today!

von stephanitz always focused more on temperament and working ability rather than on looks. in his opinion, a good dog can't come in a bad color. :)

[AllAmericanPUP]

Have you seen the "shiloh shepherds" that are advertisied today :o
[img]http://www.blv-hundesport.de/BLV%20-%20Mitteilung-Dateien/Sch%E4fer-net/Shiloh-Shepherd.jpg[/img]

[AllAmericanPUP]

Not all breeders breed the slant backed GSD's, wich is good.
There are some who have completely normal GSD's
:)

[ObedienceGrrl]

[quote name='TDG']von stephanitz always focused more on temperament and working ability rather than on looks. in his opinion, a good dog can't come in a bad color. :)[/quote]

I couldn't have said it any better!!

[Seijun]

[quote name='ObedienceGrrl'][quote name='Seijun']I also saw a picture once of Hitler sitting with one of his GSD's which looked EXACTLY like a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (which is really what the original GSD's looked the most like).[/quote]

Is this anything like a Sarloos Wolfhound?[/quote]

Yes, but they have a more greyish color.

~Seij

[Seijun]

[quote name='TDG'][quote name='Seijun']The original GSD was created using wolf/dog breedings.[/quote]

actually that's not quite correct. one of the ancestors of the first dog von stephanitz bought for his breeding program [i]originated[/i] from a dog/wolf crrossbreeding. that's about it.

von stephanitz developed his breed based on the traditional german sheepherding dogs. these don't have much more of a background of an actual wolf than any other traditional breed out there. (by that i mean region specific working dogs.)

it is true that some breeders tried to develop the looks (and health, mainly susceptibility to distemper) of their lines by crossing in wolves, but von stephanitz was very much against this, since the obvious side effects of crossing in wolves were excessive prey drive, shyness, flight and nervousness - traits that were not desirable at all for the vision of a working dog he had and that are still faults in the breed standard until today!

von stephanitz always focused more on temperament and working ability rather than on looks. in his opinion, a good dog can't come in a bad color. :)[/quote]

Actually, the founder dog did have some recent wolf heritage, and 4 wolf crosses were known to have been used in the GSD making. Although F2, F1, and mid-high content wolf crosses would exhibit undesirable traits, lower content animals were reported as being very good working dogs (although not widely used because of the bad rap wolf crosses get). 1/4 wolf crosses were especially good as working dogs (more specifically, as sled dogs). Old accounts I have read actually report the 1/4 crosses as being very wonderful pets (1/4th crosses would be considered low content, and by that time the shyness, prey drive, nervousness, etc would be all but gone). Police forces using the Czech dog have reported them as being MUCH better than GSD's; much more intelligent, better tactability, strength, etc, which are all traits reported in the original GSD's. Although wolf inheritance did not overwhelm the GSD's origins, that does not mean they did not play a crucial role. In the development of the both the Czech dog and the GSD, wolves were used only at the beginning. Through careful breeding the undesirable traits were bred out, but the wolf's intelligence, strong senses, strength, etc, were kept. These traits were all crucial to both dogs as a breed, with the intelligence part being the MOST valuable of all the traits the GSD and Czech dog inherited from the wolf. Of course neither can be considered a true wolf cross now that each is so far removed from the original wolves used to make them, but the wolf crosses were crucial to their making (unfortunately, the GSD has lost much of the unique temperament given to it by the wolf, most likely because they began being bred for looks and for the show ring). It is interesting to note however that here in the US, the Czechoslovakian wolfdog is now being called the Czechoslovakian shepherd because of the prejudice they would face if they were called WOLFdogs (this is exactly why the Alsatian Wolfdog's name was later changed to GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG).

~Seij

[TDG]

[quote]Actually, the founder dog did have some recent wolf heritage, [/quote]

what i am aware of is that a great grandmother of "horand von grafrath" was a wolf cross. that's much less than even 1/4 wolf in the dog von stephanitz bought.

[quote]Although wolf inheritance did not overwhelm the GSD's origins, that does not mean they did not play a crucial role.[/quote]

actually that's a very common myth, more prevalent in the US i have noticed. they didn't play a crucial role. the traditional sheepherding dogs of germany did - and those dogs had been bred and used for [b]hundreds[/b] of years already at that point, from breeding programs in which aggressive animals and those who showed tendencies to bite had been rigorously eliminated, since their job was to herd livestock without threatening or biting. this is not a character trait that would have been strenghtened by wolf incrossing.

von stephanitz started out in 1897/1898 with freya and horand vom grafrath. in 1899 he founded the german shepherd club with 13 fellow dog enthusiasts. by 1920 already severe deterioration of character and temperament due to wolf incrossing in some lines were noticed and dire warnings were issued against crossing in any more wolf blood just to achieve a more uniform look. at this point in the history of the GSD, wolf incrosses were [b]not[/b] made to improve working ability or other character traits, it was simply done to achieve a certain look and under the false assumption that dogs with more wolf blood were less subsceptible to distemper. von stephanitz did not care for designing a specific look and vehemently spoke out against wolf incrossing around 1902 already.

the intelligence working ability had been there for hundreds of years already, in the above mentioned sheepherding breeds. some of these have been described in cynological literature in the 1700s already. you can see pics of some of these old breeds at [url]http://www.beepworld.de/members15/wolfundfuchs/huetehunde.htm[/url], there's a whole club dedicated to keeping them from extinction, and you will barely ever find one of them in a non-working home.

it's also a misconception that certain names some of these breeds were known under have anything to do with actual wolves being part of the breed history. parts of breed names are "fuchs" (fox, mainly because of the coat color but also the shape of the ears - chestnut colored horses are also called fuchs in germany, and they certainly aren't part fox either ;)), "tiger" (for the merled coats prevalent in some lines, the same naming convention is used for certain coat patterns of cats btw) and "wolf" because these sheepherding dogs also protected their flocks from wolves and sometimes killed the ones that tried to prey on the livestock. a coon hound isn't called a coon hound either because it's part coon. :)

believe me, if you are german, a dog enthusiast and member of a dog training club and have a boyfriend who is a GSD enthusiast like his father and grandfather, it's kind of hard to avoid learning about germany's most famous breed and the myths and misconceptions. :)

[Seijun]

Here is where my information comes from:
[url]http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm[/url]

[quote]Subject: AKC German Shepherds are Wolf "Hybrids"/Wolfdogs
by Ann Dresselhaus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3/21/97

All dogs are "wolfdogs". The only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) is the number of generations away from a "pure" wolf the individual canine is. The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to "create" the breed and this was only 90 years ago! Similar events can be uncovered for Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, Belgian Shepherd types, and many rarer-breed "dogs". German Shepherds were recently the MOST POPULAR AKC breed. Imagine that -- a 'wolfdog' is the most popular working/companion dog!

I think a key question to be answered is: WHEN does a 'wolf become a dog??


l. Since the wolf and the dog are the same species, is there really such an entity as a wolf "HYBRID".
2. Since all doge are descended from wolves, are not all dogs 'wolfdogs'? - the only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) being the number of generations away from a 'pure' wolf the individual

3. Are we really not just talking about 'recent' wolf crosses (the onus being on us to define 'recent''


Many (but not all!) of the dogs we have today resulted from the PRIMARY domestication of the Old World Southern Wolf, a smaller, less pack-oriented animal than the Northern Wolf, the wolf we are most familiar with today and which most of the 'recent' wolf crosses have used. I say MANY dogs, but not all because many of the Northern breeds are the result of a SECONDARY domestication of the result of the primary with the Northern Wolves as 'recent' as 90 years ago (documented in the German Shepherd). The primary happened thousands of years ago, but it is a mistake to think that that was the LAST time wolves were used in dog breeds.
I present the following research for your perusal:

The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to 'create' the breed.

Captain Von Stephanitz, of the German infantry, bought sheep-hearding dogs (many of them field trial winners) from all over Europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's and bred them together to create his 'ultimate service dog'. He started a registry and stud book. His favorite dog, Hektor, he gave the first # (SZ 1). Hektor was 1/4th wolf. He was bred to every decent bitch around, and all the dogs originally imported to America were proudly traced back to him. Shortly thereafter, the German Shepherd Dog's (GSD) name was changed to Alsatian Wolf Dog. Their popularity soared for a while, then fell tremendously as the media sensationalized every trivial remotely negative event that occurred associated with a canine with the word 'wolf' in it. There were arguements left and right - " Was the Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the best working/most capable/most intelligent dog that ever walked the face of the earth OR was Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the unpredictable/livestock eating/human attacking beast from hell?? Sound familiar? Well, we know how that one turned out. The name was eventually changed back to GSD,
things calmed down, and the GSD soon reached it peak at the top of the 'most popular dog' list shortly after Rin
Tin Tin aired.

In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" in which he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. [email][email protected][/email] has a pricey (about $350) original and more may(?) be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read sanitized) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since.

Herr Strebel is quoted in "The Alsatian Wolf-Dog", by G. Horowitz as saying that he "has seen how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomena which are considered to be the results of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who "absolutely had the temperament of a Sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house" (page 14, "Concerning the Wolf Cross"). He goes on to state that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolf's blood is lost in a 'domesticated' breed.

In 1912, Monsieur Henry Sodenkamp wrote in the Belgian Journal, Chasse et Peche (The Chase and Hunt), that it is the French opinion that "THE WOLF LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE ALSATIAN". (The breed was partially created in Alsace, France).

Mores Plieningen, SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath (previously known as Hektor) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line. (Captain Von Stephanitz bought Hektor Liksrhein and renamed him Horand Von Grafath, after his kennel name.)

In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 WOLF Crosses.".

(Note: [email][email protected][/email] OWNS the actual Volume I and II of the GSD Stud books. I have interlibrary loaned the other old books mentioned and made copies of all the relevant statements.)

So, I ask of you, are (AKC) German Shepherds wolf 'hybrids'?

Ann Dresselhaus
Cedar Rapids, IA [/quote]

~Seij

[TDG]

that article is flawed in a number of places, some of which i can clearly trace to misunderstandings in translations from german to english. in addition to that, of course the stud book would show that several wolves are involved, after all some members of the club [i]did[/i] use them extensively in their bloodlines, i never denied that.

fact is that much less wolf blood was involved than many people believe, it was mainly used to design a certain "look" for which von stephanitz did [b]not[/b] care since to him looks were not as important as working ability and temperament, and some bloodlines suffered badly from temperament flaws originating from crossing in more wolf blood.

here's an example of the dogs that are the foundation of the GSD, which is very obvious in the looks:
[url]http://a-a-h.de/gelbbackegalerie/gelbbacke.htm[/url]

i'm going to step away from this topic and will agree to disagree, i've seen too many people wanting to inerpret too many things into the breed for too many reasons, the latest of which seems to be to justify the creation of various wolf hybrids. :)

[Westerlea]

Well, I'm not much informed of the German Shepherd, but I do know that both the Sarloos and the Czech Wolfdog were created using Wolf blood and German Shepherd stock. Improvement of the German Shepherd was the idea, but with the "failure" of that came the Shiloh and King, I believe. Not to say this is certain, but this is just my opinion on how it all occured. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. :lol:
The German Shepherd has changed drastically over the years, that is certain. However, what about the Bulldog? It too has changed certainly. And the Pug! Of course, now we have the Olde English Bulldogge. Though, here they are harder to keep than an English Bulldog.

[Seijun]

[quote name='TDG']
i'm going to step away from this topic and will agree to disagree, i've seen too many people wanting to inerpret too many things into the breed for too many reasons, the latest of which seems to be to justify the creation of various wolf hybrids. :)[/quote]

Oh, I'm not trying to argue with you, I know nothing about GSD's other than what I have read, and of course anything you read can be flawed. Regardless of the effect wolves had on the GSD's temperament, the fact remains that the use of wolves in the creation of the Czech dog HAS created an outstanding breed of wonderful performance. I know little about the Saarloos, but the Czech was anything but a failure as reported by the police forces that have used them, much better and more intelligent working companions than the modern GSD.

~Seij

[pyrless]

while we are on the subject there are a few things i have always wondered.
why was the slanty-back GSD developed in the first place?
why do some labs have a blocky head and others have a more pointy head?
why are some labs as big as my Pyr?
i have heard that shiloh shepherds are a malamute/shepherd cross. is this true?
why is the rhodesian ridgeback in the AKC hound group?
all the things you want to know but were afraid to ask! :roll:

[ObedienceGrrl]

Isn't the Ridgie a sight hound?

And about big labs (this just burns me) my only guess is that a lot of people think bigger is better. If you want a big dog with short hair, get a mastiff. Ya know??

And I have NO idea why someone slanted the GSDs. It's frightening. They look almost crippled. It actucally hurts me to watch them in the ring.

[pyrless]

they do look crippled, don' t they?
the rhodesian ridgeback is a hunting dog but doesn't have any particular sight/scent ability. it's meant to corral and keep lions (lions!) at bay until the hunter shows up.
I agree with you about the big labs. I always want to tell these people , like Jack Nicholson "YOU CAN'T [b]HANDLE[/b] A TRUE GIANT BREED!" :lol:

[Seijun]

The Shiloh Shep is an actual breed.

The GSD's have the slanted backs partly for looks, and also because it gives them a long flowing gait that is prefered in the show ring. A slight slant (beleive it or not) actually helps the dog to run better too. However, some breeders do overslant the backs (you know, the dogs whose rear ends are nearly touching the ground).
Also, part of the slanted back problem is actually an illusion. When the dog stands the trainer/owner has the dog stand with the hind legs stretched back, which gives the dog's back a more slanted look.

The labs are huge today because the latest fad seems to be breeding HUGE dogs. Some breeders are doing this with the GSD's too. The huge labs are just for looks. A large lab would be useless for field work.

~Seij

[pyrless]

okay, well that makes sense, seijun, about the way the dogs are standing being an illusion.
it's funny and kind of sick, isn't it, that on the one side you have folks breeding enormous Labs and GSDs and on the other side you have folks breeding "teacup" this and "teacup" that.
I was watching a National Geographic show called "Dogs with Jobs" and they featured a real LGD Pyr. Then the narrator says "this giant breed can get up to 200 pounds". (The top end of the standard for a male is 130 lbs.) You know, if National Geographic can't even get it right... :-?
The Shiloh is a nice-looking dog, I think.

[between the wrinkles]

i dont believe shilohs are a true breed. just because some nonce gave them a standard doesnt make them anything. whoever made them crossed them with some nordic breed.
the same is for the king shepherds, which are gsd, pyrenees, and malamute.

both dogs are far larger than the gsd, but for no reason!!! :x