Do dogs act out of spite?

[KP]

what do you think?? I'd also be interested to know why on your decision.

Do you feel the exibit judgement yet don't think?

[kendalyn]

Well, I put no because I have never seen a dog react this way. In my experience dogs are incredibly forgiving and wouldn't think to be spiteful or revengeful. It's not really a matter of intellect, just the way they are I guess.

I have accidentally stepped on Buck before and he comes right to me with his tail wagging. I really feel like he would react this way even if I had done it on purpose. I can see a lot of dogs being like that. That is part of their appeal in my opinion. They are usually very forgiving.

If dogs had a lot of spiteful, revengeful qualities, it would be really, really hard to adopt out dogs that have been mistreated in the past because they would be aggressive. Mistreated dogs can have problems with fear and maybe aggression as a result of the fear, but I don't believe they develop a hatred of humans simply because we are humans. Any aggression is usually fear based.

[Autumn]

No, I don't believe a dog will do something out of *spite*.

Example: You leave your dog alone to go to the store and come back and a pr. of your shoes are chewed up.

A lot of inexperienced dog people would say the dog did it out of *spite*, because he wanted to go with you and was angry because you left him home.

I believe he chewed up your shoes, (or couch, or coffe table or whatever) because he was not crated when you left and he:

#1. Is not ready to be left alone uncrated
#2. May be suffering from some form of *seperation anxiety*.

As to whether a dog can reason or think, I definately believe they can, but not of course, to the extent we humans can.

I have definately seen my dogs stop and *think* when I say something to them, and then it's like a light bulb comes on and they are thinking, "Oh! That's what she means", and they go and do it. Example:

I am teaching my dogs to go find each other. When we are on our off leash runs, one or the other may *disappear* for a few minutes in the woods. I will tell the other one to go and find the absent one by using the other dogs name, of course. The dog with me will stop and become very alert while looking around, and then will take off in the direction the other dog is, even though they do not see him/her.

Now a good question is: Is the dog actually *thinking* or is he/she using their senses to locate the other dog?

From observing my dogs, I believe until they really know what I am asking, they stop and are processing or *thinking* about what I asked. They know what *find* means, they know the other dogs name, so they are putting the two together. Is this thinking? I believe so.

As to whether a dog can *reason*, I also have some good examples of that. One is:

We used to own a fantastic Field Trial Lab and in a Field Trial, the dog must go and retrieve a *bird* it did not see fall. (Blind retrieve). They have to do this on land and water, and to make the test harder, on the water test they have to take a straight line to the bird, and swim parallel to shore, but not *run the shore*, which of course, is the fastest way to get to the bird. The most intelligent dogs will always want to run the shore to the bird, because to me, they have reasoned in their minds, that that is the fastest way to get to the bird, eventhough it may not necessarily be the shortest way.

I also believe that some people attach too many human qualities to dogs and therefore treat them too much like thinking/reasoning people, (letting them make ALL their own decisions) which can get you into a *world of hurt*, as they say, while other's don't give them enough credit to be able to think and reason at all, which can be very detremental to your best friend as well.

[KP]

I completely agree autumn :D

[kendalyn]

I agree too! Uh Oh... no debate here yet! :lol:

[Horsefeathers!]

Oh, I'll debate it!

I swear all of mine lay in their beds at night thinking ways to torment me. From the pillow aiming projectile puker to the "let's carefully place this raggedy half chewed HARD toy in the dark hallway right in front of the bathroom door" monster to the never-does-it-any-other-time-except-in-public-in-plain-view public crotch sniffer. Oh yeah, I firmly believe they plan these things. :x

[KP]

HA HA HF...kind of like the..."oh we have company today! I just love showing new people how to drag their butts acrossed the carpet! Too bad I only remember to do this when we have company." :roll:

[imported_Kat]

No. This is what makes dogs so amazing... they don't have the capacity to be spiteful or pre-judge. They don't possess a selfish gene in the same capacity as humans do.

Meg selflessley endangered her own life to save mine a few years back. We were in South of England in Harwich and I got caught in a rip, and was being dragged out to where there were liners. That was the only time she ever disobeyed me when I told her to get away back to shore. She kept being dragged under and each time I was sure she wouldn't come back. I grabbed her collar and with a lot of hard swimming and kicking that dog saved my life. Certainly not a selfish act. If she was selfish, she could have thought "sod it I'm in danger, I have to think of me first and foremost and save my own life, nevermind my owner who is being dragged out over there".

[Doglistener]

No! Kat is absolutely right.

Some people imagine that their pets are able to understand complex thought patterns, and comprehend our moral and ethical codes, they assume a dog

[Doglistener]

Whooooooa Sorry

I appear tohave put the brakes on this one. Any other comments?

[Guest Anonymous]

I think we all pretty much agree on this one... NO.
thats what i love about dogs they are so good natured. thats a characteristic i do envy

[courtnek]

I answered no, but it's a two-pronged question. No, I dont believe they act out of spite, but yes, I do believe they can rationalize AND reason....

The shoes was a good example. Did he chew them up because he was mad at you for leaving him? Or did he chew them up because he is lonely, he misses you and they smell and taste like you? I do believe they have the emotions of lonliness, sadness and can become so attached to you they dont want you to leave them, causing anxiety issues while you're gone. Remember these are pack animals. In their natural existence there will always be other animals around to keep them company. Unlike cats, it is not natural for them to be alone.

As far as reasoning, yes, they can reason. In some of the best examples, it's in disobedience. Guide dogs are trained in the art of "intelligent disobedience". They are guiding their blind master, they come to an intersection and the light suddenly changes. Can the dog see the colors in the light? no. He has been trained to notice the change in traffic. He stops. His owner edges him forward, he stubbornly refuses to move. Although he has been given a direct command, he is able to think it thru due to his training and say Nope, not going there. That requires more than just a pea sized intelligence. They have been known to step in front of an insistant owner who is not responding correctly and physically refuse to let them move. It takes almost a year to train a blind person in how to respond to the dog, to let the dog make the decisions. It takes more time than that to
train the dog, on how to intelligently disobey. I believe that in order to do that, the dog has to be able to reason, to make the correct choice for his owner, despite being told to do otherwise.

in that same frame, they often use Labs and Goldens for this work.
hunting dogs, who's first instinct is to chase anything that runs, like most dogs. Yet these dogs will NOT chase a squirrel, a rabbit or another dog in the park. They will calmly sit down and wait for thier masters command on what to do next. I believe this requires reasoning, otherwise why would
they not react first to their basic instinct? Yes, they have been trained to
NOT react, but not responding to a natural instinct requires a thought process that I can only call reasoning. They somehow seem to KNOW that
their job is to be their masters eyes, and nothing else matters.

yes, you could attribute it to training, but then again, there has to be a certain amount of intelligence and the ability to make choices (reasoning) to even be trained in this way.

[Guest Anonymous]

:klacz:

[KP]

Thats exactly what I think courtnek. I feel dogs definately have the ability to rationalize and reason to a certain degree of course. This goes along with counter surfing and being on the couch when no one is around. They learn to do it when you are not there because they can't be corrected for it...unless you have tried avoidence training. Its not something that you train them to do but they figure it out on their own.

There are all kinds of examples I can give but won't get into all that. I completely agree with everything you said. Dogs are definately smarter than some people give them credit for. I feel they DO have certain feelings but its not the same as human feelings or to the same extent. If they didn't have some sort of level of feelings they wouldn't have anxiety and they wouldn't get so excited to see you when you walk through the door.

I do NOT feel they do things out of spite although my husband is one of those people who gives them more credit than that. :roll: It drives me insane sometimes.

[Doglistener]

[quote]The shoes was a good example. Did he chew them up because he was mad at you for leaving him? Or did he chew them up because he is lonely,[/quote]

Neither he probably chewed then because he was teething or because of separation anxiety ie rejection which is an instinct not a cognisant act.

This is alway a sticky area because so many people are anthropomorphic
I cannot tell you how many times People have said to me that their Dog thinks it is human and I always give the same answer

[KP]

Do I feel they understand morals? Ethical codes? Do I feel that they assume a level of understanding which we do? Not the slightest bit. BUT I feel that many dogs can [i]learn[/i] to read human emotion and body language as well as vocal expression...otherwise they would be as responsive as a rock or...vine since it also doesn't have a brain. I don't feel they use spite or have the ability to understand spite. I feel they understand an extremely simple version of cause and effect. They don't understand why things happen...of course.

Dogs obviously aren't capable of calculus or capable of complex thinking but they learn [b]cause[/b] I sit and stare at them by the door the [b]effect[/b] will be they will take me outside.

Most importantly my point is, if dogs were not able to rationalize or reason or have any type of thought pattern at least to a small degree it would be completely impossible to train them.

Some dogs have actually amazed me at some of the things I see.

I understand what you are saying Doglistener and can and [b]do[/b] agree with a lot of your points [b][i]but[/i][/b] I just don't completely go along all together with the whole...dogs never think have have no thought process because of my point. Whether its instinctual or whatever it is...dogs would still have to have some type of thought pattern to achieve training or any type of learning whether its good or bad. A dog will learn to cower because someone raises its hand to it and spanks or hits it in a certain way... yeah it may be instinctual but you can't have learning without a thought pattern.

BTW doglistener...you have a PM

[courtnek]

I have had dogs well past thge teething area that still chewed things up. They are pack animals, and need other beings to make them feel complete. if there are no others beings, they will chew things that their "important" being left there. they need to be socialized, and accepted, by other creatures.

[Horsefeathers!]

Really, I'm not being a smart*ss when I say this... I am genuinely curious.

I am confused as to how it is that dogs do not have the ability to rationalize or plan and they can't react with emotion and aren't able to make cognizant decisions, but rather behave, for the most part, on instinct, BUT (ok, I know this is a killer run on sentence) there is this overwhelming array of information constantly being thrown about as to how to handle dogs because, doG forbid you screw up, you can ruin their psyches, emotionally scar them for life and throw the entire galaxy out of alignment. Wazzup wit' dat??

The mind wobbles.
[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDPAqAe4un8wiTGjuby4ZzhTlcsIAussVoO91ZPVwE0O662MsvnvXS9wNddl1h8ARXmDUYjhTmKfLFVOhRHxW37HTPOFPkF6x6RoqhBOJ2yQDBOGPxKHKeZy0*DMSpst1ulhE5dZC0/homer%20doh.jpg?dc=4675407362494670893[/img]

[KP]

[quote name='Doglistener'][quote]The shoes was a good example. Did he chew them up because he was mad at you for leaving him? Or did he chew them up because he is lonely,[/quote]

Neither he [u]probably[/u] chewed then because he was teething [b]or because of separation anxiety[/b] ie rejection which is an instinct not a cognisant act.[/quote]

:wink: But not definately. Its unknown..but also...you re-itterated exactly what courtnek said while disagreeing...with separation anxiety.

[quote name='Courtnek']The shoes was a good example. Did he chew them up because he was mad at you for leaving him? Or did he chew them up because he is lonely, he misses you and they smell and taste like you? I do believe they have the emotions of lonliness, sadness and can become so attached to you they dont want you to leave them, causing anxiety issues while you're gone. Remember these are pack animals. In their natural existence there will always be other animals around to keep them company. Unlike cats, it is not natural for them to be alone. [/quote]

Whether it's a cognizant act or not is absolutely irrelevant. What is relevant, is the reason. Anxiety. I may know as a human, that I have anxiety at certain times but that doesn't take it away. Whether the dog knows it or not ([b]which it doesn't![/b]) is completely beside the point. I agree it is instinct because they are pack animals but you can't say a dog has anxiety if you don't believe it doesn't feel emotion.


Oh yeah, great point HF :)

[DogPaddle]

I said yes although "spite" isn't exactly it but I have seen them . . . be less than well behaved when they are peeved at someone. My mom's Abby would pee beside here doggy litter boxes EVERY day my mom missed taking her for her morning walk. They do communicate their "feelings." And yes I do think they have feelings, well, as much as we do anyway. Do I think they know "right" from "wrong" - you bet - I taught Kavik that taking food off of an unattended plate was "wrong" and he knows it and will even discipline Zaphod if he heads his nose toward an unattended plate of food. I am Kavik and Zaphod's society, I set the rules and decide what is right and wrong and they believe it and as in any society will enforce it amongst themselves so long as they believe it. Personally, I don't think "right" and "wrong" amongst people is any different. Now good and evil - that's another discussion.

[courtnek]

[quote]there is this overwhelming array of information constantly being thrown about as to how to handle dogs because, doG forbid you screw up, you can ruin their psyches, emotionally scar them for life and throw the entire galaxy out of alignment. Wazzup wit' dat??
[/quote]

IMO? It's a fast buck. If you pick up a phone book you will find all kinds a "dog Psychologists" (which is NOT the same as a behaviorist, I am all for behavior therapy) who make big bucks off of people who honestly believe that their dogs are "people in fur coats"....the same people who end up having to see a behaviorist because their dogs are so completely out of control they are running the household. That's after they've dropped a wad on the so-called psychologist and it didnt help, or the dog is now on
doggy-prozac and has forgotten his housetraining (I know someone that happened to...) No, they dont have the complex thought patterns of humans, the ability to do math, or tie their shoes....but I believe they do
have emotions and feelings, that come both instinctively and are learned.

Needing to be with other living creatures is apack instinct. The ability to stay together and form a society that will feed, defend and care for all is vital to their survival. But if you watch a pack in action, the emotions
and intelligence displayed is amazing. They learn from each other, the same way they learn from us, and they show a great deal of affection,
and caring, for each other. People have argued that dogs greet you at the door because now they will be fed, the same way the cubs greet mom after a hunt for their meal. However, I can come home at any time and they will greet me, knowing they wont be fed, and on that same token, when it's "feeding time" they know that too, and then head for the bowls.

I havent trained them to do this, they learned it from experience and
from what I believe is the ability, to a certain extent, to reason things out for themselves.

[Doglistener]

Turning into a good debate.

At no time did I say dogs did not have emotions I have treated enough with depression and many other emotional problems to know that, what I said was[quote] Dogs are capable of linking ideas together, but are incapable of linking actions which are separated by time. [/quote]

Which clearly states that they can link ideas together

And I also said [quote]A dog's brain is much smaller than a human's especially in the upper part of the brain called the cerebrum - the portion of the brain associated with intellectual functions such as speech, memory, consciousness, and logical and emotional thought. [/quote]

Which though it states the word emotional thought, does not mean they do not have emotions.

What I have tried to point out is dogs are not cognizant they do not and cannot take a moral high ground and cannot differentiate unless taught by rote right from wrong and that the emotions they feel are generally realted to instinct and drive.

Let me give an example of that.

Lets pretend you are a small dog, a poodle for instance. Your owner keeps going into the bathroom (to fix her hair for a big date), and you, the poodle, are wondering why. So first you think, well maybe she is looking for food, there was once a food dish in there

[KP]

[quote name='Doglistener']
There is a scientific name for this Anthropomorphism: The textbook definition of anthropomorphism is: to assign emotion or thought patterns to animals or objects, [b]which are incapable of achieving such dimensions.[/b]

This is like explaining that a vine climbs up the tree to get a better view
I believe that anthropomorphism is one of the main reasons we find immense difficulty communicating successfully with our pets. So why do we do it? Humans find it easier to relate to something when they see their own emotions and thought patterns into the actions of their animals.

Using the vine illustration, this is an example of projection. Projection is a psychological phenomenon in which one projects their feelings upon others, animals, or objects. This is useful in everyday life for it takes the guesswork out of reality. [/quote]

I apologize if I misunderstood. I can see where you are going now and I understand what you are saying :)