Please tell me he is not typical???

[Doglistener]

Hi Guys

I may way out of order here, if so the moderators can remove my post.

I visited a site recently owned by an American so called trainer called Adam Katz. the site is dogproblem.com he only allows people to voice opinions that are pro his techniques and bans anyone else that even remotely criticises or that suggests methods that are not his own. Remember his is a public forum supposedly for training ideas.

I was horrified by the methods he suggested using including prong, electric, and choke chains on little puppies. I live and practice as a Behaviourist in the UK, if he tried these techniques here he would be more than likely prosecuted and probably run out of town on a rail. :evil:

This trainer sells videos and books of his methods with money back guarantees that appear worthless.

His bullying tone, aggressive attitude and his belief that his way is the only way and all else is highway is unbelievable.

Please tell me that these ignorant, archaic, and barbaric training methods are not common in the USA and this man is just a one off. :roll:

Regards

Doglistener

[ellieangel]

I haven't been to the site so I don't know what this guy is like but in my opinion it is not the tool but the way it is used that is usually the problem.

ANY dog training tool can be abused.

[bk_blue]

Agree with Ellie- the implementation is more the problem than the actual instrument. I haven't been to his site but he sounds like a right prick. :x Sure you can have your opinion as long as it agrees with mine type thing... oh well if that's the way he wants it, let him. Stay here with us instead! :wink:

[DogPaddle]

The majority of the trainers I have encountered in Canada use very gentle methods and do not allow prong/electric collars in class and discourage their use except in certain circumstances. I imagine it is the same in the US, this guy is just a jerk.

[Sharpeigirl]

He does sound a bit over the top, but I've used prong collars on my rotties & also on Sassy, and they helped me control them, with no pain or discomfort to any of them. Kirby was the only one I didn't use a prong with, he was already trained when I got him, so no need for it. And prong collars aren't as awfull as they look. They actually work really well.

JMO

[DogPaddle]

I agree that prong collars have their uses with proper implementation and for the right dog in the right situation.

[Guest Anonymous]

that guy is a total idiot.

i've posted on his forum once or twice and not only do i think he is NOT a good dog trainer, he is also a very rude, ignorant person.

he runs his forums like a nazi, deleting all posts that suggest positive approaches to dog training to people who ask about a training problem. what is lost if you try the gentle approach first? you can still try that prong collar later, if the positive approach doesn't work for [b]your[/b] particular dog, which isn't the case very often anyway.

he does not allow people to link to any other websites without "prior approval", which he doesn't generally give anyway.

all he wants to do is make money off his training videos, without giving his customers a possibility to learn about OTHER training methods and make an informed choice. he dismisses any methods except his own as ineffective or "fads", which i find very suspect since every good dog trainer i know will tell you that there is absolutely no "one size fits all" approach to dog training that will work for every single dog.

a big "thumbs down" from me.

[ellieangel]

Sounds like a complete A**hole to me :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

I know that special dog units in the Army or Police services use a combination of positice and negative techniques. As was mentioned earlier it makes total sense that one technique doesn't fit all. Just think about how "we" were raised as a child.

Too much of either positive or negative can raise a spoiled or mentally dysfunctional child! The same goes for a puppy. This jackass is probably just some masochistic nazi.

[Doglistener]

Hi Guys

This was one of the mediators of this sites giving advice today on a 16 week old Bichon a normally timid and shy dog at this age..... the dog was barking!.

As we all know a pinch collar is a prong collar and should never be used on Pups of this age, and to suggest an electonic shock collar the mind just boggles.

[quote]First I would try the ignoring tactic. Once a pup learns that it will get some form of response from you [even a negative one,] it has learned that it can manipulate you with its vocal chords.

If this be the case, [especially since the pup is 4 months old,] I would put a pinch collar on the little loud mouth with a leash attached. For the first peep out of its mouth, I would give it a corrective 'PoP!' with the leash very matter-of-factly. Now I would just as matter-of-factly say "No." Do not show anger, be very emotionless. It should take no more than two or three corrections to get your point across. Adam's book goes into excellent detail as to how to do this properly/appropriately, and how it works from the dog's/pup's standpoint. If you haven't read the book, I highly recommend it.

If your pup is a horribley tough customer, then invest in a good bark collar. Adam has some excellent ones available via this site. If this is the route you decide to take, please do not cut corners and buy a cheapy. You can cause big problems with them, and/or as friend of mine found out, they spent less money on 3 different cheapies only to have them all malfunction and/or quit in short order..[/quote]


And this is the start of a long tirade from Katz the site owner where he refutes his money back guarantees and berates everyone. I think you mayl get a feel for this sadist.

[quote]There is a myth going around that I'm going to address here. The myth is that: Different dogs need different training approaches.

This is bunk. Pure hogwash. [/quote]


Doglistener

[Guest Anonymous]

i feel sorry for every poor timid dog who gets that kind of treatment.

a dog is not a lawnmower that you can take to a mechanic to "fix" the problem. *sigh*

[courtnek]

With the introduction of behaviorists, a lot of these old "training" techniques have fallen by the wayside, in the states and other places. This WAS the favored training method for a long time. They (and parents) were
teaching by punishment, rather than encouragement. The problem is a dog cant remember what it did wrong inside of two minutes of doing it. So when you come home and yell at the dog for soiling, it has no clue what you're mad about. It only know's you're yelling, and so next time it's gonna run as soon as you get home...In a pack environemnt, the mom would clean up the soiling and there would be no punishment, because she
realizes the puppies cant help it...they gotta go when they gotta go. That's why caging for housebreaking became so prevalent...it does basically the same thing that being in a den would do. A dog does not normally want to soil it's own sleeping place.

I use housebreaking only because it is the most lamented offense, but pack training works in all other aspects too. If you treat the dog like a dog, in the pack environment, it will respond naturally because thats
what it's instincts tell it to do. It is familiar, comfortable with pack training.

People like this who believe that abusing dogs gets results, will eventually end up with a dog that "wont take it any more"...the fact that he is TRAINING (for want of a better term) is disturbing...and sad.

I would like to discuss this with him...in a dark alley..with Freebee.. who
would remove his arm if he threatened me in any way....

:evilbat:

and I have never used punishment or abuse to train her...

[dogsgalore]

A prong collar is definetely not good for every dog, especially a four month old Bichon! :evil: I knwo someone who has a Border Collie. They use a prong collar because he pulls a lot. I took him for a walk when I was there and he hardly pulled at all but when he did and the prong collar pinched him he shrank back and cowered! Sometimes he whined and once he yipped and snapped at the lead. :o He tail never came up the entire walk, he was obviously too sensitive for this type of collar. I told them but they haven't done anything. I guess its enough for them that the dog doesn't pull, never mind if the dog shrinks and cowers. :(

[dogsgalore]

[color=black]I just seen this on his site:[/color]


[color=darkblue][Adam: ] I believe it

[PatriciaT]

So weird that this guy on the web screens all the posts...what a whacked wierdo.

Agree with everyone here...this guy is using totally old techniques. When I was volunteering at the SF SPCA I sadly witnessed one of the behaviorists totally make a dog submit to the point that the dog would not come down off some obstacle coarse equipment. The dog was an airdale mix getting all the other dogs riled up in a doggy day care setting. The behavior guy pretty much hung the dog in the air by his choke chain for a good minute. He was so mean. And after that, like I said, the poor dog just went straight up the big fence thingy and stayed there all day looking very sad. Must insert here that he is a champion with Schutzhund training with Belgian Malanoises. This guy's buddy also was not very nice. He held private obedience classes that OP and I attended until I decided he wasn't very nice either. I was trying to work with OP in heeling and she kept pulling so he told me to yank her choke chain and nothing happened...so he told me to yank it harder and harder and finally when I yanked as hard as I could poor OP threw up...she vomited... and we stopped going after that. I felt so bad.

The SF SPCA got a new trainer from Canada and totally changed the school of thought there. Everything was so positive and wonderful. It was a 100% about turn and I liked it.

This guy sounds so old school. I hope people don't listen to him. Positive training is so much better for the dog and for the owner....no guilty conscience for anyone. I did stick with the prong collar for OP...she is a big dog with a huge neck....until she got about 3 years old...that was when she started maturing and didn't want to eat skateboards quite so enthusiatically. I still have quite a time with her when a kid goes skating by...but I can control with just a buckle collar. I wished they never invented those things.

Better go now...24 is on now...talk about violence...but hubby likes it...so I cover my eyes while he narrates what is happening.

[Doglistener]

Hi all

You have restored my belief in human nature :angel: and that pain and suffering is not the way forward, brutality and fear should never be part of integrating a dog into our families.

For Hundreds of years we have used the idea of "Dog Training" as the way to apparently educate our pets to our way of thinking. However is the term "Dog Training" still relevant in this day and age.

The Adam Katz method of training using check chains, prong and electric collars is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Unfortunately this sergeant major mentality is still out there and still used by many trainers, however the more enlightened have moved away from the let him know who

[ellieangel]

The other danger is that he will be giving these training tools a bad name too when many responsible people use these tools WITHOUT abusing their pets.

[Doglistener]

Hi Ellie

I totally agree he really must be stopped.

Doglistener

[Doglistener]

Hi All

Can someone tell me is their a professional body or a central group I can complain too regarding this man and his practices or are they generally accepted in the USA?

I have decided that his flagrant misuse for his own financial ends of what is supposed to be a Dog Forum is so disgusting that I feel I must do more.

This is by no means a critical of Americans only the few that want to abuse rather than co-exist with their pet.

I hope you will join with me in trying to close down this terrible site and putting this man out of business and all the dogs out of harms way.

Regards

Doglistener

[ellieangel]

Does he have any letters after his name ?
If he does you can complain to the organisation that they represent.

[Kaleb124]

I was going to post this as "guest" but I just got a new flame suit. :o

DogListener -- You are taking many different bits of information out of context, twisting them, and making Adam look like a two-headed monster.

There are many ways to "skin a cat"....There are many different ways to train dogs. Not all training methods work well with all dogs. The Dog Problem forum is there to promote Adam's training methodologies. He has created it for the express purpose of helping people (dog owners) that no one else could help. When Adam was personally training dogs for customers, people (from all over the world) brought their dogs to him because they had no where else to turn. It was Adam or have their dog put to sleep.

Do you think that it is wrong for him to promote his own training methodologies on a website that he pays for with his own money? Do you think that it is wrong for him to stipulate, dictate even, what kinds of conversations he deems acceptable for the very website that his money pays for? Does he not have ownership of that very forum?

Dog Problems Forum is NOT a PUBLIC forum.

[url]http://www.dogproblems.com/dogtalk/[/url]

"2. THIS [b]IS NOT A PUBLIC FORUM[/b]. WHILE EVERYONE IS ALLOWED TO POST, DOGPROBLEMS.COM STAFF MODERATORS RESERVE THE RIGHT TO BAN ANY MEMBER WHO IS DEEMED RUDE, OFFENSIVE, CRUEL, OR ADVOCATES A TRAINING APPROACH WHICH DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS WHAT WE'VE FOUND TO BE "REAL WORLD" TECHNIQUES. IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN OPEN MIND ABOUT THE HUMANE USE OF CHOKE CHAINS, PINCH COLLARS, OR ELECTRONIC REMOTE TRAINING COLLARS... GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. "

You are not required to agree with his training methods. But the fact that you would go elsewhere and publically criticize his person [i]with the intention of putting him out of business[/i] borders on the edge of slander.

Prong/pinch collars, choke collars, e-collars (and many other dog training items) are only tools. Any training tool can be misused and even abused. I have seen perfectly healthy dogs hung over a fence dead in a regular flat nylon collar. I have seen owners take a normal leash and make a slip noose so that they had a way to choke their own dog.

The training tools are not the problem, lack of owner education is.

People often purchase a cute little puppy without even beginning to think about the responsiblity of dog ownership. Many dog owners are uneducated, irresponsible, and just down right abusive or neglectful. Once the cute puppy phase is over, the problems set in. Then people dump the innocent, untrained, ill-mannered dog in rural areas, or tie it to a tree in the yard. The dog's life is but a shadow of what it could have been with some education.

But you say the type of education that Adam gives people is bad/cruel/worthless, etc. That is your opinion. You prefer gentler methods and that is fine. I personally started my pup with purely positive methods. When I began to have problems that my positive trainer could not help with, I began to search. I found Adam website and book. By combining the methods taught to me by my personal trainer (PP methods) and the correction methods taught by Adam through his books and videos, I have a well behaved, obedient 1 year old male Akita.

Adam does not encourage people to abuse their dogs. He does urge them, however, to learn to communicate with their dogs in a way that they instinctively understand.

If you feel so very strongly about this, why did you choose to go to another dog forum to bad-mouth Adam? Why not just openly tell him how you feel? IN FACT why not take Adam up on his $10,000 challenge???

[url]http://www.dogproblems.com/challenge.htm[/url]

...and yes I know that this says that it is expired, but you never know.

And I will be back. I think that you have misquoted some information and I want to set the record straight.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Kaleb124'] If you feel so very strongly about this, why did you choose to go to another dog forum to bad-mouth Adam? Why not just openly tell him how you feel? IN FACT why not take Adam up on his $10,000 challenge???[/quote]

Why do you ask that question when you already know the answer to it?? Seriously! You know VERY WELL, as well as everyone there that he was banned as soon as he started posting. You know in his forum you can't hardly post to a forum you are banned in.

Not to mention Adam has a huge obvious problem returning emails it seems. Half the time it takes an act of god or a big hissy fit on his website to even get him to respond to something...

Oh BTW according to Adam's beliefs you believe otherwise...about these methods work for all dogs. I wonder how he would feel towards that. As he says "it frosts his hide to hear these things" ...actually says it's completely bunk, pure hogwash

[quote name='Kaleb124']Not all training methods work well with all dogs.[/quote]

Also, he does not recommend these methods for just problem dogs. He recommends it for EVERY dog.

Its not slander if its the truth...Its too bad he can't come to that realization! The problem is he just can't handle hearing about himself. He doesn't educate, he sells. Other people educate for him. OH! And they are not all trainers..In fact one regular poster who is not a trainer, pushes his product just admitted that she has no dogs and has never even read his book. His "Secrets Book". There are no secrets in his book!

Yeah he has his precious book, so what. If he had any knowledge or confidence at all in his own book he would know that it could sell itself. I'll admit even here its a great book but he obviously has no confidence in his own "business" and it shows with his rediculous rules. no email's, no pm's or other websites are to be posted. Its utterly rediculous.

As for the whole car lot theory. He needs a new one. My mother worked at a car lot for 10 years and they talked about other cars all the time. would they allow someone else to sell a car on their lot, no but reality is...there IS A WHOLE OTHER WORLD out there. This may be his "business" but the fact of the matter is there are lives involved and he has shown full well where his concentraition is in the matter.

He kicks people off his site NEVER EVER for giving bad advice but ONLY when someone calls him on his own faults. Its funny how this BS always comes up on HIS website never anywhere else. Yeah you'll have your cat fights on any message board but not were its regularly directed at the administraitor...hmmm doesn't that seem odd??? He can't even keep the people on his own site happy. No other forum has this problem with the administrator, you'd think he'd take that into consideration being the "business guy" he is but obviously he doesn't know as much as he says about business.

On the car lot issue, instead of kicking you out, they would listen and then explain why their car is better.

Why is he so afraid to hear or learn about any other method. Any trainer who says that they know it all about dog training and refuses anything other than what they know is a REALLY BAD TRAINER! REAAAALLLY BAD. He may know what works for him but closing off all other learning or whatever make him a really bad trainer.

He wants to say he has no experience in Customer Service which is supposed to be an excuse??? for his lack of eloquence??? Gimme a break. No person has to be TAUGHT common courtesy! No person has to be taught to how to be nice or friendly to people...and thats how he thinks he's going to get sales. Yeah, right!

[Kaleb124]

Say what you will about the forum and the way that it is run. It is Adam's forum, Adam's money pays for the forum, so Adam makes the rules for the forum. So, if you don't like the way that the Dog Problems forum is administrated/moderated, etc. go elsewhere. That is a no brainer.

However, I have a problem with people who would make it their "life's goal" to destroy a man just because they do not agree with his methods. Adam is not a dog abuser. He does not teach people to abuse dogs. His book is not about ripping a dogs head off with a prong collars nor shocking them into submission with an e-collar.

[quote] OH! And they are not all trainers..In fact one regular poster who is not a trainer, pushes his product just admitted that she has no dogs and has never even read his book. [/quote]

I saw that too....troubling. However, all of the information that she posts is (at least) a regurgatation of parts of Adam's book....I guess she just restates what others (who have read the book) have said.

[quote]his rediculous rules. no email's, no pm's [/quote]

This started back in June during another upset.

I have to go for now. Hubby's here to take me to dinner.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Kaleb124']However, I have a problem with people who would make it their "life's goal" to destroy a man just because they do not agree with his methods. Adam is not a dog abuser. He does not teach people to abuse dogs. His book is not about ripping a dogs head off with a prong collars nor shocking them into submission with an e-collar. [/quote]

:roll:

I for one will state I never said that he abuses dogs. I just want to make that clear. I think he does have a great book and I don't feel that people should judge training they don't know anything about. I feel you should learn as much about the training (not necissarily using it) before you dismiss it...but thats my opinion.

My comments stem from the fact that he is clueless. He plays this "I don't understand why everyone hates me BS" yet he treats his own customers and the people who come on his site like crap.

Maybe it is his website but he does a crappy job running it. That is not just my opinion but very OBVIOUSLY (which btw doesn't seem to occur to Adam) you have to consider that if not just a few people but handf[u]ulSSSS[/u] of people think this something you are doing is wrong, just maybe what you are doing isn't working? And if he's having these problems regularly which he even admits to on his own board maybe what he's doing ain't workin for him???

People don't gossip on his board, through email or pms and we all know what happens when anyone has an opinion there. People aren't told these things by the other members because there is no communication allowed there. So they figure it all out completely on their own. It amazes me he doesn't think that hurts his sales. It amazes me this doesn't raise some red flags to him that allll these different people dislikes the way he's running this board.

Don't act like a couple of people are set out to get him and ruin his career...Don't play "poor me" or more so "poor him". [b]He's doing it to himself[/b] so that doesn't fly in my book. A lot of different people have shown their dislike. You know that, he knows that and lots of other people including me knows that. If its his money he pays for his website fine whatever but I'd think he'd want the most out of it he could get. If he knows ANYTHING about business then he would know what he's doing he could be doing a whooole lot better.

[Guest Anonymous]

I just want to clarify also that I understand what you are saying by going somewhere else. That doesn't bother me. Thats why I'm here. I don't say a word about my opinions on his site. I don't participate often. I make the choice in where I go but if he's going to continue the things he does in all their rediculousness then he better expect people to go other places and talk. He better expect this to continue because its not going to stop just because he wants to pout about what he causes. If he doesn't like it CHANGE IT! For god sake stop whining about it... If he doesn't want to change it then get over it.

like I said....HE'S DOING THIS TO HIMSELF. He needs to get over himself. HE needs to take responsibility for it and stop blaming others for their opinions of him and his website. If he doesn't like it, change it or shut the site down cause he's not going to change the rest of the world to fit what he wants.