Crystals in Urine - New Diet

[DogPaddle]

My mom's shih tzu, Abbey, has ended up with crystals in her urine, the vet put her on a "special" dog food - made by Hill's or Science Diet or something (canned.) My mom was sure Abbey wouldn't eat it, the vet told her not to worry - after 4 days of not eating the vet agreed Abbey apparently would not eat it :-? . So he gave my mom a RAW diet recipe - mostly liver, rice and pumpkin. She can only be on it for 6 weeks - not enough nutrience or something. However, my mom is now sure that there is no way Abbey will go back to dog food so she has committed to doing a raw food diet with her even after the crystals clear. Yay!
I have been doing some research an raw and similar diets as we are hoping to switch our boys over soon but does anyone have any advice in view of Abbey's crystals?

[imported_Cassie]

Homemade diet - Thats great.
You'll need to be careful with supplements with things like the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio - pick up Dr Pitcairns Complete Guide To Natural Health for Dogs & Cats as a start to help you with a raw food diet for a dog with special needs.

I think the easiest way to keep her urine on the acid side would be Vit C.

[DogPaddle]

Thanks for the advice Cassie, I will be sure to pick up at least Dr Pitcairns Complete Guide To Natural Health for Dogs & Cats if not other books as well. As for the Vit C - that shouldn't be too hard. Kavik used to get a Vit C tablet everyother day when he was a pup and he thought it was the best treat, he also likes pretty much any type of fruit except bananas.

[alicat613]

Find out if her crystals are because her ph is high or low. One calls for more protein, the other calls for less.

Pitcairn's diet is very grain heavy.
Wendy Volhard's book and Kymythy Schultze's book are good ones too.

As for the calcium/phosphorus ratios, it should be 1:1 or 2:1;
for every pound of meat you will do 1 OR 2 tablespoons of bone meal powder (human grade). Pitcairn also tells you other options such as eggshell powder. I'd write those too except I stupidly loaned out that book about 6 months ago...guess I'll buy it yet again.

[DogPaddle]

Thanks Allicat - I'll add them to the book list too. I think I recall liking the Volhard diet. I'll have to ask my mum about the crystals and the ph. :kciuki:

[nadooshkinz]

The raw diet Recipe sounds good! I'm keeping a sort of journal on the computer where I list certain dog probs, and the cure, for future refrence.
Be sure to add that to the list! :wink:
I'm no expert so I'm not sure I can contribute much here, except
[size=6][color=violet][b]Get well soon Abbey! [/b][/color][/size]

[DogPaddle]

[quote]Get well soon Abbey! [/quote]
Thanks Nadooshkinz!

[imported_Cassie]

I thought I had included this site on my last post....whoops...here is a good site to review...this is for dogs and cats...just explains more about crystals in the urine etc....enjoy! :bigok:
good luck and I hope every thing works out fine.

[url]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=1773&articleid=1188[/url]

[marion]

I make up the supplement recommended in Dr Pitcairns book for my dogs. Have done for a few years now. Because I homecook their food I like to make sure they get all the vitamins they need. It consists of LECITHIN, BREWERS YEAST, KELP and I also save all my egg shells (quite a few because they love scrambled egg) and crush them to a powder when dry, which gives them their Vitamin C.

[alicat613]

Don't you mean the eggshells provide the calcium??

[marion]

Duh!!!! :oops: :oops: Alicat, yes the eggshells provide their :o CALCIUM, :o I've got vitamin C on the brain at the moment because I'm taking supplements myself.

[DogPaddle]

I'm very excited now. We have decided on the Volhard diet I think (in part because no one seems to carry the Pitcairn book or have it in stock around here), [i]I have Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog[/i] and another book for comparison. The second book is a very simple diet without much in the way of supplements - [i]Better Food for Dogs[/i]. I think we will use some of their stuff for when we are visiting family or on canoe trips. We will be starting in just over two weeks. :D My mom still has to find out from the vet if Abby's crystals or from low or high PH but I think the vet will be a great help, he suggested the raw food diet (eventually) to my mom and provided her with a supplement powder free of charge. (I've got to find out what's in that.) Thanks so much to everyone for their help

[DogPaddle]

Hmmm, been reading some more and I have come across a problem:
I often go on canoe trips that last between 3 days to 2 weeks. There is no electricity and dragging a cooler full of ice and food over 2k portages with a canoe on my head doesn't sound like fun so I've never done it and hope not to. Consequently during trips I eat no meat (well occaisionally jerky but that barely counts) no dairy except old hard waxed cheese and after the first 3-6 days no fresh fruit or veggies. In fact on many trips most of my food is reconstituted dehy and dried fruit and nuts and stuff. Last time we took Kavik he carried his own kibble (real high protien, high fat stuff to keep him going) and ate some of each of our meals. This Volhard diet discourages switching back and forth between kibble and raw but it also pretty much requires refrigeration. Suggestions?

[Kiger]

Nature's Variety, BARFWorld, Steve's Real Food, and Wysong make freeze dried raw dog food. It's expensive, but it would work for a couple days of camping. You don't even need to reconstitute it with water.

[DogPaddle]

Thanks Kiger :kciuki:

[alicat613]

Well for breakfast you can make those breakfast bars, that would cut down.

How much does your dog eat a day? We lug around raw meat for a Great Dane camping, we just had to shift what we eat. Less meat for us LOL.

Volhard also has a dried dog food, something she has on her website I think, that can be used instead?

[DogPaddle]

[quote]We lug around raw meat for a Great Dane camping, we just had to shift what we eat. [color=blue]Less meat for us [/color]LOL.
[/quote]

We don't eat [color=darkblue]any[/color] meat on our trips. It won't keep without a cooler and ice and aside from the weight of a cooler and ice they are horibly unweildly to portage*.

Kavik and Zaphod together would eat about 1 1/2 to 3 lbs of food per day - it's not so much the weight of the food, its the weight of the cooler and ice.

Does anyone know if unsalted jerkey will keep?
My other option is to do a different diet there are plenty that aren't as strict as the Volhardt one and I might be able to do dehydrated versions of them.

*Portage - think mosquitoes, black flies, psuedobogs, rocky paths, single plank bridges and hills - lots and lots of hills, with a canoe and all your food, tent, clothes and other gear on your back. Total weight, sans cooler and ice, would be between 175 - 275 lbs or 80 - 125 kgs for two people and two dogs. Portages are ususally between 400m and 2000m and on any given travel day there are 3 - 8 portages. Its fun . . . really . . . no I'm not kidding . . . you should try it.

[Aroura]

Hey if I knew your mums vet I'd give him a pat on the back for the raw suggestion... but Liver... no, no, no, no!!!! :o
I would advise your mum to cut out the liver asap!!!! A recent study, done at my own university :wink: , has proven that liver is THE WORST food for crystals!!!
What the study actually did show is that a mostly vegetable diet is the best diet for dogs with crystals. It should be a low protein diet and most of the protein should be coming from eggs and cheese, provided the dog isn't allergic to cheese. Beef and Lamb protein is unadvised but, though the studys weren't done with chicken, my bet would be that it would be the best meat to use. Also, one meal late in the evening was the best time to feed them for some reason.
Just remember, when feeding veggies to always make sure they are finely pureed. If the dog is a fussy eater I'm not sure how to make her eat the veggies, some dogs naturally love them, Lily is always in the compost heap eating rotton pumpkin and all the veggie scraps we throw out! She even gets into the veggie patch, stands on her hind legs picking apricots from the apricot tree, and eats all the apples that fall from the apple tree :lol:
But if she wont eat veggies, try mixing the egg and cheese with it, most dogs can't resist cheese!

[DogPaddle]

I will have to talk to them both about the liver. The diet Abbey is on now is actually mostly rice :-? and pumpkin which is why she can't be on it for long - not enough nutrition, she is scheduled to switch to a more regular raw diet soon and my mum is suppossed to stop by the vet to pick up more supplement and some new raw recipes that are more balanced. The crystals appear to have cleared up now so that at least is good.

[Aroura]

Pumpkin is a great food for dogs, rice is not. When Abbey is switched over to the more "normal" raw diet I would start which switching her food, monitor the crystals, then start adding the supplements. Sometimes supplement themselves can cause allergys or other such things, so just add things one at a time and see how she goes. Also, add yoghurt to her diet, we all know how good yoghurt is! Maybe that friendly bacteria will help clear the crystals?

[alicat613]

Well rice is not something I would ideally use or recommend for most dogs, but remember, every dog is different and some have special needs! To say that rice is not a good food for dogs isn't really true. Most dogs do not need the carbs. However it can be great for soothing GI upset, and it can be helpful in keeping weight on a too thin dog (when medical reasons have been ruled out for thinness). Unfortunately my teen Dane does not eat enough on a strict BARF diet (no offense people but please save the you haven't tried hard enough routine this time), and he does eat whole brown unrefined rice as part of his diet (separated from raw).

As far as saying high vegetables is better or high meat is better, you have to know which type of crystals and what the pH balance of the urine is to say. A high veggie/carb diet will make the urine more alkaline while a high meat diet will make the urine more acidic. Other substances such as vitamin C or baking soda can be used to help keep the urine in the proper values.

[DogPaddle]

Still havn't gotten info from mom on whether Abbey's crystals were from high or low ph but from what your saying Allicat it sounds like they were from too low ph.