"New" Breeds

[Black GSD]

Starfox,

While I agree with most of what you posted. IMO, this part is TOTALLY incorrect.

[quote]Hobby breeders need to be stopped[/quote]

The Hobby Breeders are THE ones that should be breeding. They are doing it for the LOVE of the breed. They train and show their dogs, do ALL genetic testing that applies to their breed, do a LOT of research to find what they consider the "perfect" mate for their bitch. They have a PLAN for the litter. If you ask them WHY they bred the bitch and WHY to the particular stud dog they did, they can give you a page long answer. They would rather keep all of the pups in the litter from birth to death, than sell then to an unsuitable buyer. They will take a puppy back from a buyer for any reason. They WILL tell a person standing in front of them with a fist full of money wanting to buy a puppy that they are NOT acceptable if they aren't. Most of the time they LOOSE money on a litter of puppies. But they DON'T care. And they WILL do it again and loose money AGAIN because they are doing it for the RIGHT reason.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Black GSD']Starfox,

While I agree with most of what you posted. IMO, this part is TOTALLY incorrect.

[quote]Hobby breeders need to be stopped[/quote]

The Hobby Breeders are THE ones that should be breeding. They are doing it for the LOVE of the breed. They train and show their dogs, do ALL genetic testing that applies to their breed, do a LOT of research to find what they consider the "perfect" mate for their bitch. They have a PLAN for the litter. If you ask them WHY they bred the bitch and WHY to the particular stud dog they did, they can give you a page long answer. They would rather keep all of the pups in the litter from birth to death, than sell then to an unsuitable buyer. They will take a puppy back from a buyer for any reason. They WILL tell a person standing in front of them with a fist full of money wanting to buy a puppy that they are NOT acceptable if they aren't. Most of the time they LOOSE money on a litter of puppies. But they DON'T care. And they WILL do it again and loose money AGAIN because they are doing it for the RIGHT reason.[/quote]


Ah, no I think I said that wrong. I think of "hobby"breeders as people who don't give a darn about the dogs and do it just because they want to do something, not because they actually care about the dog. Or they do it because they think they can get money out of it. I used the wrong term by using "hobby". Sorry about that :oops: .

[StarFox]

Oops. The previous post was froom me. I forgot to log in.

[mouseatthebusstop]

I do agree with you starfox hobby breeders do all checks
Where do all the dogs in shelters come from?
A good breeder will always take a dog back if it has not worked out
BYB THE MILLARS AND UNFIXED MIXES THESE ARE THE ONES WHICH MUST BE STOPPED

[Horsefeathers!]

Wow, step away from the computer for a couple of days and miss a good "debate."

Hillside, I'm soooooooooooooooo glad you addressed the thing about Poodles being stereotyped. I do truly get frustrated at the overbreeding and capitalization on all these "poo" and "oodle" breeds when I hear the excuses for breeding them. As pointed out, Poodles were originally bred as water retrievers, working dogs, are no/low shedding and as "allergy friendly" as is possible, and do come in a wide array of colors and sizes. All it boils down to is people don't want to be stuck with that image of having a she-she, girly foo foo dog, so they feel better by having a diluted Poodle and calling it a "poo" or "oodle." I reckon that dilutes the girly foo foo stereotype. For its purpose (low shedding, intelligent, choice of colors, good watchdogs), there isn't a better MIX of "poo" and "oodle" dogs than just a plain Standard Poodle. If that's too much dog, they come in different sizes. I have to admit that I do get really frustrated at the intentional breeding of Poodle mixes when I just can't see a purpose to dilute them to begin with when people are wanting what they already offer. Anyone else see the catch 22 in this?

Poodle rant over there.

I am as pro-rescue as a person can be. I KNOW there are wonderful purebreds in the shelters and rescues. However, I really don't have a problem with people who buy responsibly (which "responsibility" could be a debatable topic, itself). I do have a problem with impulse purchases, commercial breeders (any purebred or fad mix) and backyard breeders (another long debated topic and each person has their own definition, I'm sure). I do believe IN GENERAL that anyone wanting a specific type of dog as a pet should check rescues and shelters first. However, for those who have specific requirements such as needed for a dog intended to work, or other specific purposes, that's where responsible breeding and buying would come in. I just hate to see people buying dogs plucked out of newspaper ads, flea markets, that sort of thing.

In short, I'm all for the choice to own whatever type of dog one desires. I just think that, far too many times, those choices are made irresponsibly, supporting commercial breeders and people of questionable ethics.

[kendalyn]

[quote]As pointed out, Poodles were originally bred as water retrievers, working dogs, are no/low shedding and as "allergy friendly" as is possible, and do come in a wide array of colors and sizes[/quote]

I totally agree! I can't think of a breed that better embodies what a lot of people are looking for in a dog. If people would just get over their stupid poodle misconceptions they would realize that the standard (and other sizes) are just what they are looking for.

I do think that the poodle's bad rap has sort of saved it in a way. It hasn't been over exploited by BYBs nearly as much as breeds such as golden retrievers and labs. At least this seems to be true for the Standard Poodle, I don't know about the toys. They seem to be favorites of puppy mills. :-?

[Guest Anonymous]

*Deleted*

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='SexxieRacerChik']But what if someone who is allergic to dogs wants a dog and really doesn't like the way a poodle looks? Maybe (for example) they like goldens.[/quote]

It's hard for me to buy that simply because there is no more versatile dog in terms of what it can look like than a Poodle. Here's a Poodle that doesn't look like a Poodle.
[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YACeAqseFfQhJNSjCczJkHlJqIMZFLIceatfZwShFlIkwCqyJZseeAHgXx472Gx1U6dXz5rQUv5LW2Q8aICzOplKFDlcEgJ!HnpIfDaMScaq89LVFpLI8zAKLplGx0Nha19Ln6IUFRm6ch4CTW96aQ/Perry%20pose.JPG?dc=4675400218523457213[/img]
They can be shaved head to toe to look like a big hound, they can be styled to look like many other breeds (Bedlington Terriers, or any number of terrier trims, Bichons) or they can be custom styled to look like nearly anything someone would want, so the "looks" thing, to me, doesn't justify it. If someone wants a dog that looks like a Golden, they should get a Golden. Not a Goldie-Poo or Goldendoodle, or Goldie-doodle-doo, or whatever cute name they have. Besides, I really don't think it's responsible to buy a dog based solely on its looks. That may be an appeal, but it certainly shouldn't be the sole reason someone chooses a dog.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that Poodles are the perfect dog for everyone and every situation. I'm only expressing my displeasure and disgust with the "need" for "poo" and "doodle" mixes.


[quote]The people out there breeding these type dog mixes seem to be trying to find a pet that appeals to these people so they can have a pet in their home they are happy with..[i]not what they had to settle for.[/i] I dont think it's very fair to tell someone with a disability that because of it they are just out f luck and will have to settle for what they can get. [/quote]

Again, I disagree. By going the rescue route, I "settled for" two Standard Poodles bred down from the '91 Westminster champ (Ch. Whisperwind On A Carousel). These are everything Standard Poodles could be. Their only flaws are what could only be pointed out by a judge, or someone familiar with the breed. It was worth the wait and research to me. I wouldn't have as big a problem with it if people were actually researching it more closely rather than impulse purchasing... "I want it and I want it now!" or "Hey, that's cute! I'll take it!" with no regard to anything other than their own instant gratification. It dismays me that one would even think that adopting a dog means [u]settling for[/u] less.


[quote]It's compicated and shouldn't be done by just [i]anyone[/i]. But someone who is truly after the good towards society and the breed. It's just uncommon these days for people to create new breeds because there are so many already...but society changes year after year and people want different things, and because people do no genetic testing on themselves before having offspring they "breed" more and more genetic faults into themselves...which causes them to have way different needs from , let's say, someone 10 years ago. And since people have minds of their own and are free to make hoices/decisions for themselves...these new breeds are being made for them.[/quote]

If these people had a purpose other than simply capitalizing on fad breeds as well as the people capitalizing on the breeding of poor quality purebreds, I would certainly support it. Unfortunately, it's almost solely about money. THAT is what I have a problem with. I have no problem with freedom of choice. I only wish people were more responsible in the choices they make. I'm not a rescue Nazi, but it does pain me to see people so careless in the choices they make that affect so many other lives... not only the dogs, but the people who are left to try to take care of them. I only wish people would at least [u]consider[/u] adopting dogs before making an impulse purchase. That very post pretty much validates my concern that people generally have the mistaken notion that adopting means settling for an older, sick, special needs, problem dog. If a dog is being obtained simply for a pet, not to work, not to show, not as part of an effort to better a breed, I can't wrap my brain around why people wouldn't give more consideration to adopting. All I'd ask is that they at least research it rather than impulse purchasing. These people with these cutesie fad breeds and poorly bred purebreds are simply capitalizing on people's unwillingness to put any effort into obtaining a pet. Where do we start to make a difference... with these breeders, or the general public?

[courtnek]

I have posted this before, but...here goes...

there is a purpose, in some cases, for mixing two purebreds for a desired reason. There is a lady here in my town, who has a dog called a Golden Lab. Yes, it is a cross between a Lab and a Golden Retriever. I had one as well for a few years.....

She is confined to a wheelchair, and only has the use of one arm (polio)
She is frail, but stubborn, and wanted to do things on her own in spite of the disability. She went to the Guide dogs societies, and tried a Golden as her help companion. She liked their gentle, mellow nature, but with her disability she could not groom him, nor could she afford to have him groomed as often as a golden needs it. They then tried her with purebred Labs. Since she is frail, she found it hard, although the dogs were well trained, to handle the more headstrong, stubborn nature of the Lab.
She honestly felt uncomfortable with them, because they were so strong and so headstrong. She said "they pull too hard...." (meaning her chair)

So the Society got her a Golden Lab. Mellow, strong, obedient and laid back. The Seeing Eye and the Hearing Ear and most of the disability societies have been trying to "breed" these dogs and train them, for people like Helen. Here is a need that should be fullfilled, even though the dog is not a purebred, it serves a definite purpose. Now the Guide dog societies breed with health and and genetics in mind...they know the candidates for these dogs cannot afford one to have hip dysplacia and need constant ear checking...these people have enough problems as it is....

I met Helen at our Jewel food store. The dog was standing up and pulling things off the shelf for her. She cant stand, and the shelves are not really equipped for someone in a wheelchair. She has a detachable basket on her chair for grocery shopping. Because it's small, she has to go three times a week to shop, and takes the dog with her. (I suggested PeaPod, a grocery delivery service that will put your food away for you, she nearly took my head off....she is very stubborn) The dog was taking things off the shelf with his teeth, and even knocking them off with his paws, and then picking them up and putting them in the basket. I walked the whole store with her, talking....this dog was the combination of the two best breeds for this type of work.

So in some cases, is it so bad to mix breeds for a specific purpose? or to mix them to get something you really want for you? I rescue, from shelters and rescue societies, but that's me. If I saw a need for a specific mixed breed, I would go that route. I dont think the breeds should be called purebred, they are not, and the astronomical pricing is just greed.
But sometimes, there is a real reason for doing it.

[Horsefeathers!]

Courtnek, I've seen the story before, but I'm still not sure I'm convinced that was the ONLY way to successfully fill that lady's needs. Still, that's neither here nor there (will just agree to respectfully disagree). I am not anti-mixed breeds. I am anti-irresponsibility and anti-greed. At least the dogs you mention are, as far as I know, bred for a purpose other than revenue. As far as I've been able to tell, the vast majority of people mixing breeds and, heck, breeding poor quality purebreds are doing it SOLELY to meet the needs of the "I want it and I want it now" general public who's been sold a bunch of malarkey about "designer" breeds, or about how it's so unfair for people to have to travel, research, or be expected to go to any real trouble other than to write a check or plunk down a credit card to buy a dog. People want convenience in virtually every aspect of their lives. Why should buying a dog be any different (I can think of many reasons, but...). That is all about revenue and that is what I have a problem with. I'm fine with someone who's truly trying to accomplish something driven by a force other than $$$. I love seeing new breeds come onto the scene when there's a function for them other than lining the pockets of unscrupulous breeders.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]...they "breed" more and more genetic faults into themselves...which causes them to have way different needs from , let's say, someone 10 years ago....[/quote]

Our needs havent changed. Our "wants" have. We could live like people 10 years ago did, 50, 100 years ago. We just dont [u]want[/u] to.

[courtnek]

[quote]At least the dogs you mention are, as far as I know, bred for a purpose other than revenue.[/quote]

they lose money on these dogs.....If the person cannot afford the dog, it is given to them for free...they can do this because of vast donations and charity work.

they breed responsibly, because of the people who need the dogs. They are not in it for revenue, they are in it to help people who dont want to
be completely dependant if they dont have to. It's easier for them to be dependant on a dog than people. Dogs dont resent being used for work.

[Guest Anonymous]

Have you ranting fools stopped to read your own senseless e-mails? Of course breeding mixes is a profit industry! What do you think breeding pure breds is? Do you think they're creating purebred dogs in completely reasonable numbers and without any ill effect on the dog population? Yeah right! Think there aren't thousands of purebreds being euthanised every year because the call for them isn't great enough but so called "reputable" breeders keep churning them out?! If you do then you're as big a fool as your e-mails make you sound. Any industry that is going to survive MUST be based on profit, it's basic high school economics. However, the key is supply and demand, especially when the merchandise is a living creature. If the desire for these ultra fantastic purebreds you guys love to whine about isn't high enough then they're getting put down and abndoned just like any other mutt. The simple fact is that if there is sufficient desire for a certain kind of dog such as one of the hybrid breeds then there is no reason not to create it (as long as it doesn't create or emphasize natural health problems in either origin breed). This will help alleviate the booming abandoned dog population because dogs are being created that people want and that there is a desire for. Regardless of what any dog looks like or is bred from the source of all these abandoned and maltreated dogs is pure irresponsibility and disregard on behalf of owners and improperly motivated breeders! The only way the excess dog problem will ever be solved is to capture and quarantine all dogs and prevent any sort of breeding until every dog has a happy healthy home and then allow breeding in select numbers only to fill the specific demand. Since that is obviously absurd it is only logical to try and make dogs that more people want and try to raise awareness of improper breeding practices and come down harder on heartless bastards that can't be bothered to care properly for their dogs. In addition, to those of you belly aching about how mixed or hybrid dogs are only going to have health problems and various weaknesses you can stick that right up your unaware backsides. How do you think we have fields of corn and wheat and various other agriculture that is resistant to all sorts of insects and plant viruses that used to ravage crops? How do you think they've gotten strong enough that we can grow those same items in climates that used to crush them? At this point I'm sure you're scratching your head and probably drooling so I'll help you out before your keyboard shorts out. CROSS BREEDING. Informed intelligent farmers and scientists bred out weaknesses by combining different plant strains and while maize might look really great and be fun to eat, it's not nearly as strong or resilient as the crops we plant today. In the same way, as long as breeders and vets work together responsibly and intelligently to develop these new breeds there is no reason that they won't be stronger faster and healthier than your much flaunted purebreds. However, I'm sure some of you will blow off what I've said because you're stuck in some elitist rut about how purebreds are better simply because they have the word "pure" in there and you refuse to face facts. So I ask you simply to consider the royal families of Europe and Asia who thought the same way and kept inbreeding into the same "pure" bloodlines to avoid "inferior" [i]mixed[/i] heritage and how well it worked for them because I assure you, you could not pay me enough [b][i]not[/i][/b] to put down a dog I paid thousands for because it was pure and ended up looking like Prince Charles.
--Highspeed--
P.S. For the record, my family has always owned one pure golden retriever and one mutt and have always gotten them from the local pound or a shelter until recently when we got our last two goldens from Yankee Golden Retriver Rescue program which is a great organization.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Highspeed']Have you ranting fools stopped to read your own senseless e-mails? [/quote]
No, I haven't checked my email yet; I usually come here first. *shrug*

[kendalyn]

[quote]it is only logical to try and make dogs that more people want and try to raise awareness of improper breeding practices and come down harder on heartless bastards that can't be bothered to care properly for their dogs.[/quote]

I sort of agree with you here. The only problem is that [i]people who don't know specific breed tendencies often want dogs they shouldn't have.[/i] How often does it happen that people bring home a cute boxer puppy only to find out it drools like crazy and is extremely active?

Mei-Mei made a good point a while ago when she said she once wanted an Afghan Hound. But after doing some research she realized the Afghan isn't a dog that would fit into her lifestyle. Not everybody is going to do this research as Mei-Mei did.

So reacting to supply and demand doesn't always work because if the dog isn't a good fit in a home, it has a higher chance of being dumped. But the long term results of that purchase don't factor into your high school economics course.

[quote]In addition, to those of you belly aching about how mixed or hybrid dogs are only going to have health problems and various weaknesses you can stick that right up your unaware backsides.[/quote]

When the cross breedings make sense, you're absolutely right. As most of us know, it was the way our "purebreds" were develped.

Not every cross breeding is a good one though, especially when people are breeding dogs who already have a lot of genetic problems. The people doing the cross breedings are quite often ill informed. [i]It is doubly bad when they are specifically breeding for conditions that are inherently unhealthy such as dogs with severe pushed in faces or are extremely tiny. [/i]

In a perfect world I would be very happy to see new breeds developed. But the reality is in today's world most dogs don't need to be developed to do jobs as they used to. So in effect all we're breeding for is pets. And that quite often translates into breeding for how a dog looks. As I said before those features which make a dog look distinctive are not always very healthy for the animal.

[courtnek]

****SIGH**** I think I already stated in my post, HAD YOU BOTHERED TO REALLY READ IT!! that the dog assistance societies ARE NOT IN IT FOR THE MONEY!!!

they have people with real needs. people who want to live reasonably independant lives, who rely on these dogs to be their eyes, their ears, their hands and feet.

should they be crossbred? YES!! if the eventual outcome is a dog who can service them better.

[Guest Anonymous]

BREEDING SHOULD ONLY BE DONE BY REPUTABLE RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED.. NOT JUST FOR THE MONEY. WHY DO YOU THINK THERE ARE NOW SO MANY HEALTH AND TEMPERMANT PROBLEMS IN "PUREBREDS"? SO MANY BACK YARD BREEDERS IMBREED AND LINE BREED.. ITS DISGUSTING. AND FOR BARKINGLOT.COM ARE YOU KIDDING ME? HYBRID DOGS? SHAME ON ALL OF YOU...THERE ARE ENOUGH UNWANTED MIX BREEDS IN THE WORLD ALREADY... WE DONT NEED ANYONE PURPOSLEY CREATING MORE AND THEN TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THEY DOING THE WORLD A SERVICE. TAKE IT FROM SOMEONE WHO WORKS IN AN ANIMAL SHELTER WITH A 30/70 PERCENT ADOPTION RATE.. UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.. LEAVE THE BREEDING TO THE PROS. PLEASE SPAY AND NEUTER!!! AND CONSIDER ADOPTING SHELTER PETS:)

[Guest Anonymous]

well said K! :) this topic is relly old anyways!

[Guest Anonymous]

12 pages...DEAR GAWD :o

.......ok I'm done.