Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='Pennynewf']i looked for a webpage in your profile before asking, thought you might have a website on your herding. :) BTW i mostly outcross.[/quote] I am working on a website now, it's not quite finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Encyclopedia Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Ok, I have to ask, Why do you inbreed? Does it help the dog in any way at all? If it does, can you tell me how it does? Even if inbreeding does cause just minor defects like and extra teat, why is it so important that it be done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='Poofy'] I test for PRA, luxating patellas, heart problems, thyroid and leg perthes... Only phenotypic problems but very genetic. [/quote] PHENOTYPE: This is the "outward, physical manifestation" of the organism. These are the physical parts, the sum of the atoms, molecules, macromolecules, cells, structures, metabolism, energy utilization, tissues, organs, reflexes and behaviors; anything that is part of the observable structure, function or behavior of a living organism. GENOTYPE: This is the "internally coded, inheritable information" carried by all living organisms. This stored information is used as a "blueprint" or set of instructions for building and maintaining a living creature. These instructions are found within almost all cells (the "internal" part), they are written in a coded language (the genetic code), they are copied at the time of cell division or reproduction and are passed from one generation to the next ("inheritable"). These instructions are intimately involved with all aspects of the life of a cell or an organism. They control everything from the formation of protein macromolecules, to the regulation of metabolism and synthesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 You asked: " One more question.....Do you or would you consider outcrossing you dog lines? That was really the point of this post originally and perhaps that is the way I should have started the post. Reading the articles that I posted lead me to believe that not many people are willing to outbreed dogs and this is bad." I do both. I out cross and I inbreed. I have not found any differences in reguards to health. I have been able to breed a genetically clear PRA line as well as a genetically clear heart (mitacardial valve) line. I say "clear" I am at least 90% that it is clear because of the particular breedings that have not produced any PRA or murmurs. I have brought in some stuff though that I will have to pay attention too. One is a swedish line, that has no known history for "scanning" for problems...the other line is a line where there are known affecteds in reguards to heart. However, I will not be line breeding on that area of the pedigree. When you are dealing with a breed that has a very limited gene pool, this can be tricky. I have gone to great lengths to obtain genetic out crosses....even purchasing a dog that is 9 years old, in hopes to revive a sound line that was lost, because it did not win. Now would I out cross to a different breed? There is not a breed, in my honest opinion that would be safe to out cross too. Chihuahua, have a complete different type, size and temperament, Shih-tzu are chrondrodysplastic, so are pekes, toy spaniel have a some sort of autosonomal recessive that leaves puppies blind and deaf (strangly enough seems to happen when you out cross particular lines) and cavalier king charlse have heart problems that I would not want to deal with. While they have gotten it undercontrol within the breed, there is no way to know that my breed would not carry modifiers that would cause the problem to escalate. There is not anything that is worth "risking" to out cross too and bring back in. I feel that I would be better off, out crossing, to a forgein line. Which I have done. Not looking at the area of irresponsible breeders, and looking only at the areas where a person would consider the breeder to be ethical...you have the problem of genetic bottle necking for one main reason. When you compete, be it comformation, field, herding, lure coursing, you find yourself relying on a small competative gene pool that is capable of success. Good breeders have painted themselves into a corner in respects to what makes a good breeder. Some one who competes, contributes, and succeeds in what they do. Well, because of this, some of the most popular and most plentiful breeds have suffered. Comformation, for example, is designed so that only a set number of dogs can finish a CH each year. The dogs compete against each other. They fight for a CH title. If a particualr "type" of dog is winning then people will seek out that type and breed to it. In breeds such as boxers, shelties, golden retrievers, and labs, you may have to beat out 50+ animals in order to obtain a particular point amount to build up a CH. While to the outsider this game seems nonsense...you have to understand that when you are*in* the dog world what you DO defines WHO you are. To many people in dogs cannot understand why a CH should *not hold so much value. In many breeds it can cost upwards of 20 thousand dollars to CH a dog. In the Japanese Chin it does not take as many to pick up majors to obtain a CH....however we have just the opposite problem..there are not enough dogs to breed too or compete against. Most breeders do not understand or have any knowledge about genetics on any level and often cannot understand the reprocussions of the choices they have made. Also, there are the secrets. You don't talk about your problems because if you do, your dogs are "bad"...if you don't talk about your problems...then how can you know what other people have? Lont time breeders have been crusified for speaking out against certian pedigrees. And those who refuse to breed to those pedigrees (even the healthy dogs of those lines) paint themselves into a corner in reguards to high COI. In the aspect of field work, where there are breeds that must compete for those titles, there are often a very few who succeed. Especially in the golden retriever. The golden, must compete with the labrador to obtain a field title. Labs, being historically tough more competative dogs are competing in tests designed for the Lab...the golden is having to work like a lab...very few goldens can accomplish an FC...and this rarity has in a sense "split" the breed into to distinct types. Almost all FC dogs today go back to two very well known dogs. The only way to truly "solve the problem" would be to allow dogs to breed uncontrolled and allow for survival of the fittest. I will take my genetic problems rather then that. A way to "maintain" the problem and reduce genetic bottle necking in the competative world would be to change the way dogs compete...then you have the argument that poor specimines will be winning.... I think the answer...in all honesty is for dog breeders to act like dog breeder and make the decisions that have to be made inorder to move a breed forward. Also, there are breeds and breed clubs who have attempted what you are suggesting...one that comes to mind is the dalmation...which was granted permission to out cross the pointer. The results were not at all good. Infact, from what I understand it was quite detrimental, and the lines were scrapped. Also, the seeing eye foundations, were for a while, doing hybrid crosses with labs to goldens, and even poodles...they are still not decreasing their probelms with PRA and dysplasia and have just as many affecteds with those hybrids as they did with the pure breds (plus several new problems)...that was also scrapped and I believe most are using goldens or labs now. The basengi people, in an attempt to gain control of some sort of genetic problem that was plaguing the breed ( I think it was kidney stones or something), was granted permission to take dogs directly out of Africa's jungle.....I think that they got the inital anomolie undercontrol, but wound up bringing in plasmatic enteritis...I am not 100% sure as I have not studied basengi pedigrees or history very much. Lastly, in the poodle. Back in the 70's the breed was plauged with PRA. By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. Some of the worst dogs I have ever seen in reguard to temperament and health have been mix breeds. Not because they were mixes...but because their origins were not from well bred and selected animals. What you base your breeding program at its foundation is what will make the biggest impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 you asked: Ok, I have to ask, Why do you inbreed? " Traditionally, breeders will tell you they inbreed to set "type"...to create preditability....and while there is some truth to that...it is not (75%) of the time, the out come that you get. Inbreeding can and will produce a vast diversity, because it pairs together many recessives. Selecting particular lines and inbreeding on them because of their history of production is a smarter way to inbreed. That is where you will reduce your variables and increase your homozygosity. Inbreeding can bring to the surface...good...giving you a leg up...or bad....putting you back at square one (or F1 in this case) Does it help the dog in any way at all? If it does, can you tell me how it does? I can produce a very potent producer, and it can produce a dog of better type. If the inbreeding is done on lines that are screened for a particular genetic disease it could produce a dog that is homozygous normal. It can also produce all the opposites. "Even if inbreeding does cause just minor defects like and extra teat, why is it so important that it be done?" People usually do it because they feel they have something they can predict. By using a particular line you kind of limit your potential problems. If you do get into trouble you can out cross (resubmerge the problem) and head a different way without having to start over. If you have a mish-mash pedigree...your chances of knowing where the problem is comming from and knowing where to go, is very slim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='Poofy'] The only way to truly "solve the problem" would be to allow dogs to breed uncontrolled and allow for survival of the fittest. I will take my genetic problems rather then that. [color=red][b]No so. Selective breeding....very strict breeding and a willingness to cull (severely, if needed)[/b][/color] By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. [color=darkred][b]You just contradicted the above statement.[/b][/color] [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote]I never claimed to be an expert on dog breeding in fact just the opposite, I stated that I have never and will never breed dogs. I can however make statements about the detrement of inbreeding on a gene pool. What I have not liked about your responses is that they could give the wrong idea to people who are unfamiliar with genetics. Take for example, Hmmmmm's response that he knows nothing about genetics (these are the authors words) but he thinks that inbreeding is a fantastic idea as long as he can't *see* anything wrong with his dogs. This is a dangerous practice. [/quote] Poofy has stated some valuable points and has quite an understanding in canine genetics. If people are unfamiliar with genetics then they should take it upon themselves to do some proper research to come to some understanding especially if they have intentions to breed. A lot worse comes out of breeders who don't care and breed, than by those having Poofy as a mentor. You may not want to breed but follow and study along side a knowledgeable breeder for the next 20 or 30 years and watch what happens, you may be surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote][b]Poofy wrote: No I do not have a deep understanding, [/b]I am only a student. My molecular genetics sucks. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Well i have been watching this one for sometime now :-? i think i have read this whole thread about 20 times :lol: I feel the need to ask a few people a few questions :o Ok to Doc :lol: What do you class as inbreeding? How close how far apart are you talking here? By keeping in the same breed, what do you class as outcrossing? And again how far apart are you talking about? To Hmmmm :lol: Ok you inbreed, how far in will you go before you go out? To Hobbit :lol: Same question as Docs, And also how big is your breeds gene pool? To Poofy :lol: Same questions as doc. I am asking these questions for a reason the way people use the inbreeding outcrossing words are often very mixed. Awaiting these replies with interest :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Hobbit: You wrote"No so. Selective breeding....very strict breeding and a willingness to cull (severely, if needed) " I think you are splitting hairs. I never said for people not to breed selectively. I also said "I think the answer...in all honesty is for dog breeders to act like dog breeder and make the decisions that have to be made inorder to move a breed forward. " My statement of "natural selection" was in reply to if you wanted total out crossing.....and the only way to achieve a truly very low COI and almost non exsistant genetic disease...would be to let dogs breed "as in nature". I am not willing to do that. I would rather have to face my genetic problems. I Stated: By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. You stated: You just contradicted the above statement. Yes I, was giving examples where inbreeding has proven to be a vaulable too...you also left out where I gave examples of out crossing helping the basengi breed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 And yes, I freely admit...I suck at molecular genetics. But then have you ever tried to read through topics like Mu DNA, Circularization of Infecting DNA, Mu encoded protiens, Ribosomomal frame shifting, Replicative Transposition, Mechanism of G inversion? and other such topics. Its enough to make your eyes glaze over. For example.... I am still trying to work out as to where TN3, TN7, TN1721 exactly are located (as in are they themselves gene sequencing or only a pritien within the gene?) and what they do, I understand they are some sort of family dealing with protien coding (GCAT)...I realize that they are gram positive transponsons...but understanding their use can make your eyes cross. So I applogize for my ignorance. If any one out there would like to help me understand and figure out some sort of system so that I can remember protien codes I am all for it. Also I would like to know how they decide the difference between a heptanucleotide and a nucleotide, as well as how they catagorize TN families? Is it location? or legth of code? Is it based on the 3' end or the 5' end or am I totally off on either of those assumptions? Or is it based on its positive or nagative charge? Reading books about the results of gene combinations is alot easier then reading books about the molecular aspects of protien sequencing..... Hey...at least ignorance is curable. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='roo']Well i have been watching this one for sometime now :-? i think i have read this whole thread about 20 times :lol: I feel the need to ask a few people a few questions :o Ok to Doc :lol: What do you class as inbreeding? How close how far apart are you talking here? By keeping in the same breed, what do you class as outcrossing? And again how far apart are you talking about? To Hmmmm :lol: Ok you inbreed, how far in will you go before you go out? To Hobbit :lol: Same question as Docs, [color=red][b]INBREEDING: the breeding of father to daughter, brother to sister, mother to son, 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. LINEBREEDING: Uncle to niece, Aunt to nephew. [/b][/color] And also how big is your breeds gene pool? [color=darkred][b]The breed was developed in the 1800's and has continued to improve. Some say "Scanlon's Dell" can be found in most pedigrees. I do have pedigrees on all of my Kelpies, some dating back to the very first foundation sires and bitches. I would never, ever breed brother to sister or 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister from the same litter --- that is asking for mental and physical problems from hidden genes. It's not that I want to "hide" those genes, I just don't want them coming to the surface unnecessarily. The recessive genes (genetic defects -- both mental and physical) CAN be diluted to a point that they will only crop up in a 1 to million chance. I can achieve what is needed by other means of breeding. OUTCROSSING: breeding to another bloodline, WITHIN the same breed. [/b][/color] To Poofy :lol: Same questions as doc. I am asking these questions for a reason the way people use the inbreeding outcrossing words are often very mixed. Awaiting these replies with interest :lol:[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='Poofy']Hobbit: You wrote"No so. Selective breeding....very strict breeding and a willingness to cull (severely, if needed) " I think you are splitting hairs. [color=red][b]Nope, not splitting hairs. [/b][/color] I never said for people not to breed selectively. [color=darkred][b]Didn't say you did.[/b][/color] I also said "I think the answer...in all honesty is for dog breeders to act like dog breeder and make the decisions that have to be made inorder to move a breed forward. " [b][color=red]Some breeders have different views as to how the breed needs to move forward and it ALL depends on what the judge likes. [/color][/b] My statement of "natural selection" was in reply to if you wanted total out crossing.....and the only way to achieve a truly very low COI and almost non exsistant genetic disease...would be to let dogs breed "as in nature". I am not willing to do that. I would rather have to face my genetic problems. [b][color=darkred]Maybe YOUR defination of "Outcrossing" is different than mine. Within the same line --- you can STILL achieve good genetic health without close inbreeding. We "Outcross" our cattle and goats to different breeds (Hereford to Angus and Boer to Myotonics, etc...) ---- we "outcross" our dogs within the same breed. [/color][/b] I Stated: By inbreeding, very heavily, in mutliple kennels, they were able to locate carriers, erradicate effecteds and reduce the problem....this same thing was done in collies in reguards to CEA. There are very few "debilitating" problems in reguards to collie eye. It still exsists, but mostly in a grade that does not impact the dog. You stated: You just contradicted the above statement. [color=red][b]You did contradict the statement --- but now I think that your defination of outcrossing is something different. [/b][/color] Yes I, was giving examples where inbreeding has proven to be a vaulable too...you also left out where I gave examples of out crossing helping the basengi breed here. [color=darkred][b]Yes, I did because it had nothing to do with the contradiction.[/b][/color] [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Inbreeding: Inbreeding is the breeding of relatives. People often label breeding of half cousins or breeding two with distant grand parents, as line breeding, but in reality it is all the same, just to a different degree. Inbreeding has a different effect on large non related populations in comparison to populations that have a higher level of homozygosity. This is why inbreeding in zoos can cause so much damage...where in domesticated plants and animals there is not that much of a loss of fitness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Out crossing: Out crossing can be breeding to the same breed with no common relatives...or breeding to a different breed...depending on how you use the word. Its usually means within the same breed and cross or hybrid for mixing of two breeds...but I have used it both ways and so have other breeders. In many breeds, out crossing within the same breed is nearly impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullygirl29532 Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 just a question: if a dog has the same sire or dam for grandparents or greatGparents would that be inbreeding? keep in ming that the parents were outcrossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I was using the word outcrossing, in reguards to if you bred to another breed...as the first post suggested. Sorry about that...I should have been more percise. I do agree with you...you can find health within the same breed, through out crossing, you need not "hybridize or cross breed" to achieve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='Poofy']Inbreeding: Inbreeding is the breeding of relatives. People often label breeding of half cousins or breeding two with distant grand parents, as line breeding, but in reality it is all the same, just to a different degree. Inbreeding has a different effect on large non related populations in comparison to populations that have a higher level of homozygosity. This is why inbreeding in zoos can cause so much damage...where in domesticated plants and animals there is not that much of a loss of fitness.[/quote] I'm not saying that you are wrong, .... only misinformed. Inbreeding CAN and DOES cause MUCH loss of fitness. Continual inbreeding, within the same lines, over and over using the same dogs --- DOES and WILL cause a loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='Poofy']Out crossing: Out crossing can be breeding to the same breed with no common relatives...or breeding to a different breed...depending on how you use the word. Its usually means within the same breed and cross or hybrid for mixing of two breeds...but I have used it both ways and so have other breeders. In many breeds, out crossing within the same breed is nearly impossible.[/quote] I think that is what I said also. Why do you consider outcrossing within the same breed nearly impossible, in many breeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='Poofy']I was using the word outcrossing, in reguards to if you bred to another breed...as the first post suggested. Sorry about that...I should have been more percise. I do agree with you...you can find health within the same breed, through out crossing, you need not "hybridize or cross breed" to achieve it.[/quote] Your defination of hybrid is different from many. Hybrid is when you cross two different species --- like a jack bred to a mare to produce a mule > the mule being a hybrid. Coyotes bred to wolves > produces a hybrid. Hybrids are usually sterile. It can be used to mean the same variety --- but usually, at least where I'm from, the circle of scientists I'm used to working with, do not use hybrid in that sense (either plant or animal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='bullygirl29532']just a question: if a dog has the same sire or dam for grandparents or greatGparents would that be inbreeding? keep in ming that the parents were outcrossed.[/quote] I would consider this line breeding. It depends on what circle of scientists you run with or what University you attended --- line breeding and inbreeding, where I'm from are not considered the same term......almost, because it still means "within the family". When someone here says, the dog, horse, cow, whatever is "inbred" --- everyone automatically knows it's from a brother to sister (same sibling) breeding, father to daughter, mother to son, 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. When someone here says, that particular animal is "Linebred", everyone knows it's aunt, uncle, etc.... Tightly linebred means up close family --- loosely linebred, means several generations off. Tightly inbred --- brother to sister same siblings. Loosely inbred -- brother to sister, not same litter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 There are certain lines that hold certain traits. Inbreeding makes those traits stronger. I will outcross when I feel the line needs another trait added. Inbreeding is important. so is linebreeding and outcrossing. I dont think you need to know all the genetic stuff in order to be a good breeder. I am know to be a great breeder and have great dogs. Experience has taught me what I need to know and that is more than what any book can tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Hmmmm -- you also have the chance of weakening those strong traits with continual inbreeding (because of gene drift). You can achieve the same results without breeding brother to sister. Tightly inbreeding WILL cause a lower mental intelligence. You may have those strong traits that you want, but you are sacrificing the mental intelligence of your dogs to achieve this (with continual inbreeding). Please understand that I am in no way saying your dogs are substandard. Since you admit that you have no working knowledge of genetics, you will never understand what you are doing to your dogs, their health and mental capacity. Just my opinion: a person that does not have a working knowledge of genetics is a dangerous person, when it comes to breeding --- no matter how much experience you have at breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Whatever Hobbit Obviously from Poof's posts the knowledge is there and by far has [b]more understanding[/b] in this area than [b]MANY [/b]of the breeders here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 [quote name='bullygirl29532']just a question: if a dog has the same sire or dam for grandparents or greatGparents would that be inbreeding? keep in ming that the parents were outcrossed.[/quote] Bullygirl, while eating my sandwich I thought about this some more. IF the parents are from different bloodlines, then they can't have the same grandparents. A dog's sire can't be HIS own sire. I think you're trying to say: the sire and dam have the same grandparents or greatgrand parents, right? They are in essence brother and sister. Am I understanding your question correctly? I'm a seeing person --- when it comes to pedigrees --- I must write them down in order to "see" them. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.