Humping issue

[luvmydog]

Hi...I have a young dog, 8 months. He's wonderful, but he has an *issue*. He's humping dogs in the water. He has learned not to hump them on land, but once another dog is in the water, my dog swims after he or she and tries to mount them. Then, of course the other dog is struggling to stay above water. I actually had to swim out and rescue a dog yesterday b/c my dog would not get off her. It's very embarrassing. I cannot think of any way to correct his behavior besides using an electronic collar. I have never used one of these and it's not my first choice, but I cannot think of any other way to stop his behavior as I cannot get ahold of him in the water and he's ignoring my commands. Anyone have any other suggestions?

Edited to add, he is not yet neutered but will be by 11 months.

[luvmydog]

No, he will be neutered at 11 months. The breeder suggest to wait until a year to allow proper growth, but I will be doing it at 11 months.

[luvmydog]

From what I understand, they make waterproof e-collars. I honestly don't want to use one, that's why I'm seeking opinions on other solutions.

[rotten_two]

intact until 11 months? :o what is his breed? i can only guess he is a larger breed if the breeder wants you to leave him intact for growth purposes! my feeling is he is way overdue for neutering. i think it will definitely curb his humping -- may not "cure" it. has he been to puppy class?

unless and until he learns good manners (what is acceptable water play) i would keep him out of the water with other dogs. and for pity's sake don't use a shock collar. if you need a step by step process using postive methods pm me and i will help.

[luvmydog]

He's off leash at a fenced in dog park that has a pond. This is where he gets most of his exercise

[luvmydog]

He's a golden retriever. He's been through 3 consecutive obedience classes...does wonderfully in them. Please, I would love to hear your positive methods of dealing with this issue...can you share them on this board?

[luvmydog]

I respect your reasons for keeping him on leash and I mostly agree. But, this guy needs to get out and run in some way. We live in a condo, therefore, no yard. We are not allowed to jog with him at this young of an age due to his growing joints. We saw the dog park as a good solution. Also, he LOVES swimming and I know that's a great form of exercise. Thanks for the suggestions...I'm going to have to think about all of this further.

[luvmydog]

"and how exactly can you tell your dog is humping if both the dogs are underwater?...sounds very odd behaviour"

It's very obvious he's trying to hump...I've seen the humping motion when he's in shallow water. It is odd. We may just have to restrict him from the pond all together when there are other dogs around.

[pollysmith]

[What breed is he? I have a Male Great Dane 4 months old. I intend to have him fixed at Six months. It won't interfere with his growing. Why would it? He humps a little. Mostly my foot. I sharply say No and move him. I think its dominence with him. I'm hoping that fixing will "fix" the problem :lol: but I always keep him on a leash when we are outside if there is anyone around.

[rotten_two]

ok just as you have taught him to mind his manners on land you have to respectfully teach him how to behave in water with other dogs. here is my plan . .

1) get him neutered asap -- a very positive thing to do for your dog

2) newfie hit it -- on leash in the water (preferably you should be in with him) until he learns acceptable play. they make leashes that are called long lines (15-30ft) these are cotton or nylon so they are fine in water. if you aren't going to go in with him you need a way to keep him under control besides shock therapy.

3) practice. if he is in the water and behaving nicely just romping around reward him (letting him stay in the water should do -- we call that a life reward). you could take a ball or toy and throw it for him too. he is a retriever afterall. remember to praise tho -- thell him he is a good boy when he plays fair.

4) when he gets out of line and humps call his name and give him the anti-hump command whatever you choose (off is a good one). if he obeys he stays in the water and if not you reel him in and he gets 1 minute time out of the water. try again. please also work on the anti-hump command you choose out of the water too. *in general this is a good dogpark rule anyway. while at the dogpark frequently ask your pup to come to you and take a break -- if they don't come go get them. just like with kids they can play and play and play and get super aroused and next thing you know someone is crying or biting or well you get it. good idea to call them to you get a treat and a drink of water then back to playing*

5) always end on a postive note. if everytime you call him you pack it up and go home he will associate coming when called with going home. so call him several times and let him go back to play. when it is time to go home call him and give treats for coming. play a bit with a ball or toy or practice obedience. then leave non-chalantly. make it a good thing.

the key here is that it is going to take some time and effort. you will get out what you put in. you could maybe practice with a baby pool and a doggie friend. same drill if play is nice it continues if not -- time out. i often find dogparks to be counter-productive in terms of puppies and manners they can pick up some really bad habits. if you need alternative suggestions for exercise . . .

he is a retriever -- play ball or frisbee. fetch is an awesome game to tire puppy.

find it another good game to work mind and body. we use it for rainy/ snowy days. teach him to find you or food. be progressive in how difficult the hiding places become (ie at first hide food in plain view in middle of floor and go from there)

set up some playdates with classmates or other friendly dogs you know.

walk your dog! you don't have to run. he could probably do a fair distance right now. enough to tire him at least.

etc etc there are plenty of non-dog park non hip stressing activities that will tire his puppy butt out. remember that working his mind is just as important as the physical stuff!

[luvmydog]

Thank you Rottentwo! Lots of helpful suggestions and I appreciate it. We actually already have a 20 ft cotton lead. He's generally VERY good at recalls when he's on the land...it's in the water that he becomes deaf. I can let him drag the lead into the water...the only thing I worry about is if he's trying to hump the dog on the way back to land, the lead would be trailing behind him so I wouldn't be able to grab a hold of the lead. I think I've learned to tell which dog he's going to attempt to hump before he does it, so I should be proactive and stop it before it actually occurs. I could grab the lead before he even hits the water when I think the situation is going to occur.

We do lots of walking...1.5 mile every morning, then a 20 min walk in the afternoon, the evenings are when we generally take him to the park. We also do lots of fetch in the house throughout the day and we bring tennis balls for fetching at the pond. He is a high energy guy, but I love it. I agree with you all, I will not even consider the e-collar. I will also talk with my breeder to see how much it will effect his growth if I neuter him now as opposed to 11 mos.

[rotten_two]

honestly i was thinking more you keep hold of the lead (at least at first) and his behavior predicts how much or how little freedom he gets. the proactive approach is a good one. call him if you see him think about humping another dog -- set him up for success :)

[DogPaddle]

Well you could let him play as normal and the second he tried that - take him home. If he wants to run and play and swim enough he may eventually leave off the humping.

[merickson1131]

I was having an issue on when I should fix my pup too and although I researched it I was coming up with different ages yet none really mentioned a reason to wait passed 4 months as a growing issue. My vet said 4 months is perfect if you want to keep a lot of their puppy qualities but you can wait until 6 months to make sure that they mature enough. I spoke with some guys on the forum and they agreed that I should follow what the vet said. I am just mentioning this because as your dog gets older and takes on qualities of an intact dog (like humping) those qualities will most likely stay once fixed. I suggest that instead of going back to the breeder you should get a second or third opinion from Vets in your area. It sounds as if the breeder has already made their mind up on the issue. By the way, Austin, my dog, is a Boxer and will grow much much more after being fixed.

[JackieMaya]

Great post from Rotten Two with some great suggestions.

My 14 month old Aussie mix comes pretty well in my backyard, but I'm sure he would get mommie-deaf if loose with a bunch of dogs at a dog park. I've only had him for one month, so I know that will improve, but I wouldn't be able to trust him off leash yet.

I bought (but haven't used yet) a "check cord" which is long (30 feet maybe?) poly rope that floats in water. I got it for my Golden/Husky mix so that I could take her swimming in the lake and not worry about her getting loose. I got it at Petsmart. That would be a good training tool for your puppy in the water. You would be able to correct him immediately if he starts humping, but you don't have to worry about the rope sinking and having dogs gets their legs caught in it.

I also think it would be very beneficial for you to get your puppy neutered now. I would ask your vet and take his recommendation over the breeder's as far as how long to wait to get him fixed.

Good luck with your puppy! I love Goldens! Do you have any pictures?

[Guest Anonymous]

Some great advice again!

One thing to think about too is that you have a puppy. He is used to being on "land." He is used to the level of excitement associated with most things on land. Being a retriever, however, he is VERY stimulated by the water. The humping may be a dominance thing (not very likely though in a Golden), but it is more likely a stimulation thing. Relate it to taking a 5 year old to a toy store or arcade or something.

Also, I would do what the breeder says, not a vet. Many vets have had "nueter, nueter, spay, spay" drummed into their heads so much that they don't know another answer. Larger breeds (yours included) benefit tremendously from not being neutered during growth. The resulting testosterone drops effect bone density and development and, obviously, muscular development. There is also little evidence to suggest that humping is fixed when your dog is fixed. Humping is a behavior that can, and should, be trained out of a dog. There is also evidence now that suggests that nuetering male dogs actually increases the risk of cancers.

Behaviors that seem to be linked to castration include decreased proclivity to wander, decreased aggression (should not be a problem with a golden), and decreased territorialism (also should not be a problem with a golden). All of these behaviors are completely trainable. Why put your friend through the risk of surgery if it is not necessay?

Joseph

[rotten_two]

jweissg i promise i am not picking on you but again i have to vehemently disagree with you about the spay neuter issue. i say spay/neuter as early as possible -- some people like to wait until after rabies at 16 wks or whenever but i think you can/should do it earlier -- pediatric spay/neuter. my aspen was neutered at 12 weeks and he still grew to be a huge boy, he doesn't miss man parts, and he is better off for it.

11months is just too long. just a little juicy tidbit for ya -- in our classes we see quite the number of aggressive goldens. lot of factors besides breed go into these aggression cases obviously but right now goldens are hot (in our part of the world) for behavior problems.

i am not exactly sure where you got the neutering info but i have some info of my own --

[url]http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedSNVetJournals%5B1%5D.pdf[/url]
this one is a summary of various studies and is very technical but you get the jist.

here is another rather technical article
[url]http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm[/url]

from [url]http://www.ddaf.org/spayday/why/spayneuterqa/[/url]

Q: Does spaying and neutering provide any other health benefits?
Yes. In both cats and dogs, spaying greatly reduces the risk of breast cancer and prevents various reproductive tract disorders. Neutering often resolves undesirable behaviors such as aggression, spraying, and roaming, and eliminates the risk of various testicular diseases.

now unless the breeder who tells me to wait 11 months to alter can 'greatly reduce the risk of cancer' then i don't buy it! just some food for thought. again not trying to be a burr in your butt jweissg!

[luvmydog]

I just want to clarify something. My concern has never been for my golden to grow large, rather to grow properly. Although I do not remember her exact words, and I may not have my medical terminology completely correct here but my breeder advised that with goldens who are neutered too early, their growth plates do not close. Thus, they get the very long, out of proportion legs. If I understand correctly, allowing the testosterone in their system (neuternig a bit later) causes the growth plates to close as they were intended. I was also advised that the testosterone will allow his head to get that teady bear male look, which he's developing nicely. My vet actually has never had a problem with me waiting until 11 months. My dog has no aggressive tendencies what-so-ever, unless you consider humping aggressive. By the way, he started humping when he was 3 months old. His favorite victim was his stuffed lobster.

[Guest Anonymous]

rott,

dont worry about disagreeing with me. i expected it from someone and i am glad it was you.

i need to find the research that i am citing, but I read several studies that discount the old thoughts that nuetering (desexxing a male) has health benefits. again, i am going off of memory, but I think the research was from Stanford. it cited abnormal development in that dogs did not develop deep enough chests and had bone density problems, especially in the long bones, which are very problematic for larger breeds.

you are right about the goldens being aggressive. i was assuming a sound genetic material. a well bred golden rarely exhibits territorial/aggressive tendencies. I have raised and lived with several well bred goldens and there was just about no way to illicit aggression from them if you wanted to. it was a generalization i guess.

spaying of a female has obvious health benefits if and only if you are not planning to breed. the increased incidence of cancer in a nonbreeding, unaltered female is due to the fact that the female goes through the ups and downs of her cycle but does not recieve the "cancer shield" of nursing pups.

think about it. for thousands of years, dogs of some sort have existed unaltered. if cancer was that much more prevalant in dogs that retain their sex, the species would not have lasted. the difference is that, in the wild, female dogs dont go through heat over and over again without being allowed to nurse their pups.

let me go drum up the research i have. this could be interesting to see several pieces of research that opose eachother.

rott, dont worry about "picking on me." i always appreciate another point of view and another opinion whenever they are presented respectfully. you have been nothing but respectful (and helpful) to me, so no harm whatsoever.

ill return shortly with the research!

Joseph

[JackieMaya]

There is a similar way of thinking as to castrating horses. People used to think that gelding stallions too young would stunt their growth. But in fact the opposite has been proven true.

I also agree with Rott as to spaying and neutering dogs early.

[luvmydog]

Exactly my point. I'm not worrying about stunting his growth, I'm well aware that dogs which are neutered early tend to be larger b/c the growth plates take longer to close.

[quote name='JackieMaya']There is a similar way of thinking as to castrating horses. People used to think that gelding stallions too young would stunt their growth. But in fact the opposite has been proven true.

[/quote]

[rotten_two]

ok assume for a minute i agree that waiting is ok (totally hypothetical here) let me weigh my options . . . .

testicular cancer vs. slightly taller dog. hmmm cancer or taller? i think i pick taller.

jweissg i would be interested to see the bone density study as i have not heard of that particular side effect.

also let me say a couple things about goldens and behavior problems (ps luvmydog i was in no way implying your dog is aggressive or will become so -- it was just an insight for jweissg). first while i do think breeding has quite a lot to do with temperament i don't think that is the only piece in the puzzle. there plenty of dogs that have been "poorly" bred that have great dispositions and likewise there are some "well bred" dogs that are true nutballs. with goldens here is what i perceive to be the problem (remember just my general hypothesis every dog is different). people adopt a golden (or lab or whatever really i am not picking on goldens) and they say to themselves -- hey this is a golden and they are great with kids, people, other dogs. then they fail to properly socialize them to kids people and other dogs. wuh oh. now we have a fear biter who hates the ups guy or a dog who doesn't play well with other dogs etc. so now they call a trainer/behaviorist when they should have called to take puppy kindergarten 6 months ago. i love goldens and there are plenty of really good goldens out there. i was merely stating the trend that i have seen personally -- which is people making the assumption that a golden will take care of itself or somehow requires less work because they are great dogs naturally.

i know i got a little off topic there -- i still recommend early spays because to me the benefits far outweigh the consequences.

[courtnek]

I had a purebred GR that was neutered at 3 months. nothing bad happened to him, he grew normally, he was larger that most but he was also a huge puppy.

I think I would get a second opinion on your breeders neutering idea's.

they soud kinda, well, archaic....

humping is not a sexual move, its a dominance one. and GR's are intelligent. he's already figured out you can stop him on land, but not in the water. keep the rope in your hand and pull him off if he starts up. he has to have time-out out of the water, and once he goes back in and stops this behavior, he gets a treat when he comes out.

good luck

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