The SARF Diet

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Yes, you heard me right. Its a [i][b]S[/b]ARF[/i] diet. And VERY intresting too! I first heard about the diet when I visited [url]www.bullovedbulldogs.com/sarf.htm[/url] (a link I found on another dog forum) and am almost convinced. The breeders mentioned add no veggies to their diet, and a type of silver is put into their water. Also, they get no vaccines or heart worm medicine. Its all completely natural! I just need a couple of books, and I think I'm actually going to make the switch. Just wanted to see your input...
Breeder who feeds SARF:
[url]sagaciousairedales.com/naturalrearing.htm[/url]
[url]www.daybreakaussies.com/about%20us.htm[/url]

Another link:
[url]www.geocities.com/aussieart80634/CouchPotatoes.html[/url]

[TDG]

ok, here goes :)

don't look at the name on the "package". catch phrases mean nothing. BARF, SARF, schmarf, whatever. the only thing they usually do is link the feeding program to one particular author of one book or another.

what is important is that the diet you choose works for [b]your[/b] individual dog. this is not necessarily an all-raw diet and not even always free of any sources of carbs, like for example moderate amounts of grains and starchy veggies, like potatoes or sweet potatoes.

i know people feeding a wide range of diets, from those who feed only strictly muscle and organ meats and bones ([url]http://www.rawdogranch.com[/url] is a nice resource for that) to those who do not want to deal with raw meats and feed home cooked.

it doesn't only depend on the dog tho, but also on what resources you have available at what prices. home cooked food that incorporates carbohydrates is more affordable than feeding a strictly animal based raw diet unless you can buy in bulk at greatly reduced prices or team up with other raw feeders. meat, scraps and bones are generally less expensive in rural areas.

personally i feed a mix of both raw and cooked foods mainly because my dog prefers cooked meat meals over raw ones, but he does adore his raw meaty bone meals. plus the cooked stuff is very convenient for me to feed in the mornings.

another thing many people get very confused about are the supplements needed for feeding home prepared food, regardless if raw or cooked. there are many things you [b]can[/b] give, but very few you [b]have[/b] to. the colloidal silver you mentioned is one of the optional ones.

once you read a few books on the topic, you will see that different people advocate adding different supplements, some have a more complicated schedule than others. some actually have a purpose, others people vehemently disagree upon as either absolutely necessary or absolutely useless.

there's also a lot of hype about certain things out there. keep that in mind when reading. here are some recommendations for you:

[b][url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875962432/qid=1101513023/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-1988352-0344927?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats[/url][/b]
* [url=http://www.drpitcairn.com]Dr. Pitcairn's website[/url]

i really, really like this book and recommend it to anyone who wants to move away from commercial pet food. some people disagree on the composition of the recipes (which you [b]can[/b] tweak to suit your specific needs), but it is an easy read and doesn't over-complicate things and scare away people from trying. required supplements are explained in detail and i'm a huge fan of the "healthy powder" which i have customized a little bit for my own animals.

[b][url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0646396242/qid=1101513434/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-1988352-0344927?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health[/url][/b] by Tom Lonsdale
* [url=http://www.rawmeatybones.com]Dr. Lonesdale's website[/url]

he's a vet who actually has a PhD in canines and not just a lot of "book knowledge", unlike many other authors.

[b][url=http://www.sitstay.com/store/books/diet1.shtml]K9 Kitchen Your Dogs' Diet: The Truth Behind The Hype[/url][/b] by Monica Segal
* [url=http://www.monicasegal.com]Monica's Website[/url] and *[url=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kitchen/]Yahoo Group[/url]

monica is great because she is not biased towards any particular way of feeding and acknowledges that each dog's needs are different. if you have a limited budget for your research, do make sure you definitely get this book. her yahoo group is also a great place to learn about dog nutrition. even if you don't want to participate, reading the archives provides a lot of excellent information.

[b][url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561706361/qid=1101514604/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-1988352-0344927?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats: The Ultimate Pet Diet[/url][/b] by Kymythy Schultze

i don't agree with everything she says and she makes a number of unsubstantiated claims, but if you take what she says with a grain of salt and do some critical reading, it's still a decent reference book on raw feeding and it's fairly inexpensive.

[Aroura]

Firstly I'd like to point out a mistake in the web page. Dogs are not true carnivores, they can live quite a healthy, long life with no meat what so ever, cats on the other hand are true carnivores, without meat they would die.

For a long time I fed Lily on a SARF diet, having not ever heard the word before! I haven't read the whole page, but I get the feeling it is the same principals as Dr Tom Lonsdale advocates. I've got his book "Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health" and for a long time I fed all the dogs on the ideas that he goes by in his book. They did thrive on it, unfortunately Lily is no longer with me, so I don't know how she would have done with the change of diet, but since Lily's time was over I have been adding a lot more veggies and supplements etc to the dogs diets and Montie is a lot healthier than he ever was before. So personally, I am going to stick with the veggies, yoghurt, oils and supplements, because its working for my dogs. Who knows, when I get my next Boxer he may thrive on a meat and organ meat only diet better than what the dogs are getting now. I haven't experimented with Diego, his fur is amazingly thick for a whippet, and softer than any other dog I've ever patted, extremely shiny too, plus his muscles are developing beautifully, his bones are strong etc, I'm not going to tamper with his diet until he has finished growing, he's thriving now so no point fixing what isn't broke! A big reason why I feed the veggies is for cancer and aging prevention. Since I got Cassie, the fur on her head has gone from silver to black, so I must be doing something right! I add the fish oils for omega 3, and evening primrose oil for omega 6, the thing you've gotta remember before putting your dog on a strickly meat bone and offal diet is that vitamins and minerals aren't as plentiful as they used to be, so meats may be lacking in things. Our soils aren't as rich in iodine as they used to be, hence the kelp I add. If you want to switch over to a SARF diet, one thing you must be able to get (which I can't find anywhere here!) is unbleached, green tripe. This has enzymes and other goodies in it. In nature, dogs do get some amount of fruit and vegetables, they eat the stomachs of their prey, and pick fruits from trees when in season. I've seen this with Lily, it was quite amusing to watch her walk around on her back legs, picking apricots, only the ripe ones mind you, gobbling them up and spitting out the seed! Another funny habit of her was to break into the veggie patch, pick a few ripe tomatos and leave them in her food bowl by the back door :lol:

The other difference they mentioned between BARF and SARF, is that SARF doesn't alternate between meaty bone meals and ground meat meals. Personally, I find it extremely difficult to come across truely MEATY bones, therefore they need the extra muscle meat in another meal. Unless they are getting rabbit that has been shot for them, then they need something to add more muscle meat to their diet. Also, I don't like feeding beef bones, as they are too hard and can break teeth. Beef is a good type of meat for them, so I'd hate to leave it out of their diet. It is hard to find roo bones, another type of meat that I wouldn't like to leave out of their diet. Variety is the key to any good home prepared diet, weather it be raw or otherwise.

To sum it up, in my oppinion, the difference between BARF and SARF is that A) BARF contains anti oxidants, which prevent ageing, cancers and other degenerative diseases, B) BARF contains added essential fatty acids, which are otherwise lacking from grain fed animals C) BARF contains other addatives, such as kelp and brewers yeast, to make up for not only what is lacking from grain fed animals, but to make up for what is lost during freezing and yoghurt that contains probiotics (although tripe would be preferable to feed over yoghurt!) and D) Because of the nature of BARF, it is easier to establish variety in the diet.

Just my thoughts :wink:

[Aroura]

Oh, and I forgot to mention...

All these hippies going around saying not to vaccinate etc are the reason that all these health risks are still around! DO vaccinate your dog!!! Though the current research has said vaccinations cover for a minimum of 3, and up to 7 years. I think there are blood tests you can get done to see if your dog is still immune? Immunisations can take a lot out of your dog, but certainly not as much as if your dog were to become infected with the disease and die!

As for worming, any dog fed raw meat, any dog at all for that matter, should be wormed regularly. I worm my guys every 1-2 months, as opposed to the 3 months that is recomended. That is BECAUSE they are fed raw meat and offal, and because we live on a farm and they will occasionally find and eat a dead lamb!

Oh, and my recomendation for a book? Either Dr Billinghurts "Give your dog a bone" or "The BARF diet". Tom Lonsdales book is also good, full of reasons WHY to switch to a natural diet, but it seems like you don't need any more convincing :wink:

[mouseatthebusstop]

I am not sure I would trust NO VACZINES It's too late when something bad happens

[TDG]

[quote]All these hippies going around saying not to vaccinate etc are the reason that all these health risks are still around![/quote]

sorry, but that's a pretty ignorant statement. the reason why most diseases are still around is because they propagate in animal populations you can't reach with vaccinations on a broad enough scale (if at all) to eradicate them completely. don't you think that otherwise they would indeed be eradicated already, like so many human diseases that became extinct after vaccinations were widely available?

i quote from IVIS (International Veterinary Information Service):
[i]If the changing patterns of disease in dogs are to be understood, it is necessary to recognize that this re-emerging infection is influenced by the cycles of infection in wildlife, where the infection may spill over into domestic animal populations.[/i]

[quote]DO vaccinate your dog!!! Though the current research has said vaccinations cover for a minimum of 3, and up to 7 years.[/quote]

[quote]Immunisations can take a lot out of your dog, but certainly not as much as if your dog were to become infected with the disease and die![/quote]

actually the current impression is that the core vaccines are effective for 7+ years, possibly for the entire lifetime of the dog. after the puppy series (8, 12 and 16 weeks) and the first annual booster with a modified live vaccine a dog has lifetime protection from distemper and parvovirus. the rabies vaccine may be effective just as long but is required by law in most countries and the compromise is to vaccinate every 3 years.

non-core vaccinations are only recommended when there is a significant risk of exposure. where this is unlikely, treating the actual disease if it does in fact occur is the less risky alternative.
* corona only affects puppies under 6 weeks of age, so vaccination is entirely pointless.
* efficacy of giardia vaccination has been proven unsubstantiated by independent studies.
* lepto is only recommended in high-risk areas, since side effects of the vaccine are very
common and the risks outweigh the benefits in most cases, that aside the most commonly
used vaccine for dogs doesn't cover all strains.
* lyme is also only recommended in high risk areas, since a possible side effect is polyarthritis.
in the U.S. 85% of all lyme infections occur in the 9 new england states and wisconsin.
* parainfluenza vaccine only protects from one of over 8 possible causes of kennel cough. immunity lasts about a year.
* bordetella only protects from two of over 8 possible causes of kennel cough. immunity lasts about 6 months.

of course many veterinarians really don't want to acknowledge this because it means a huge loss of income for them and the 3-year interval is a compromise mainly in their interest.

[quote]I think there are blood tests you can get done to see if your dog is still immune?[/quote]

yes, it's called a titer test, and a dog can even be immune to a disease even if it wasn't vaccinated. natural exposure in the environment also causes production of antibodies. the most protected dogs are those who are regularly exposed to the environment and many other dogs. those who spend most of their time indoors and barely ever get taken for walks and never meet other dogs are at a much higher risk because their immune system never receives the triggers to produce antibodies.

rabies shots aside (since they are required by law in many countries and titers are not routinely accepted in place of actual vaccination), it is much more prudent to do a titer [b]before[/b] vaccinating, since if the antibody counts are above a certain level, the vaccination won't do anything at all to increase them, so it's pointless. this is what many people don't understand. another thing is that it's totally useless when puppies are vaccinated too early, since the antibodies they received with the mother's milk will make the vaccine ineffective and you risk adverse reactions for nothing at all.

[quote]As for worming, any dog fed raw meat, any dog at all for that matter, should be wormed regularly. I worm my guys every 1-2 months, as opposed to the 3 months that is recomended. That is BECAUSE they are fed raw meat and offal, and because we live on a farm and they will occasionally find and eat a dead lamb![/quote]

as with vaccinations, worming should only be done if necessary. if someone for example gives heartworm preventives already, they cover most if not all worm infestations as well.

even for worming there are better, non-chemical alternatives. food grade diatomaceous earth for example is effective against all intestinal worms except strongyles, plus it contains 14 trace minerals and aids in transporting toxins out of the body.

whew, long post, but it's a topic that is not as cut and dry as many people see it. commercial dog food has been around for about 100 years, routine yearly vaccinations for about 50, but many people don't seem to notice how both have cut down on their wellbeing and life span quite a lot. do you really believe it when a pet food company tells you in its ads that at 6 or 7 years of age your dog is a "senior"? unless it's a giant breed with a short lifespan to begin with, i hardly think so. :)

[Horsefeathers!]

For what it's worth, when I stopped annual vaccinations of one of my allergy dogs, most of her allergy symptoms disappeared. This dog stayed sickly, itchy and sore for most of her life. We'd spent a fortune in allergy testing, shots, shampoos, even raw natural dieted her (this is the dog that got ill from salmonella several years ago) and nothing seemed to help. We haven't vaccinated her in years and most of her allergy symptoms have subsided. There is still some occasional foot licking, but none of the clawing, gnawing and misery there used to be. She's healthy as can be and, as a matter of fact, is one of the ONLY dogs that didn't succumb to the recent outbreak of e coli in our household. I don't know the particulars, but I do know that yearly vaccines - sickly dog, no yearly vaccines - healthy dog. I am positive overvaccinating was suppressing her immune system.

Most of my dogs (all but one are over five years old) will probably never be vaccinated again except rabies as required by law. Even my vet respects my decision in regard to boarding requirements (assuming I ever get a vacation). I never would have imagined it, but I am fully convinced that overvaccinating is doing more harm on a large scale than any benefit.

[Aroura]

I apologise, I didn't mean to come across so bluntly! It just gets me going when (in my oppinion) idiots, say NOT to vaccinate at all. Fine if they chose not to vaccinate their own animals and they die, thats their problem, but as soon as they start telling other people not to vaccinate, that is SO wrong! :evil:

[Horsefeathers!]

Why is it wrong to share information that is correct? Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Do you mean never vaccinate as in people who don't even give the puppy series, or people who go through the puppy series and one adult set and then no more?

I quite honestly believe my dog would have died way earlier from vaccine overexposure than she will otherwise since she spent her first few years as a weak, sickly dog.

Aurora, I guess it's just surprising to see you take this stance when you are otherwise such a staunch "naturalist" and there are so many sources that address the issue of vaccine related problems. It would seem to me to kind of defeat the purpose to try so hard to keep your dogs as healthy as possible through natural dieting and then not even consider information that addresses the problems associated with overvaccination. I'm not being a smart*ss at all. I'm just kind of surprised.

[Aroura]

I mean never by a mother dog who has never been vaccinated giving birth to a litter of pups that are never vaccinated. I may feed my dogs a healthy diet, but I would never endorse something that can so easily lead to the deaths of many puppies. I know of several puppies that weren't vaccinated and died of parvo, hardly the thing I would want to see a family have to deal with. I may advocate a natural diet, but I'm not stupid!

[Horsefeathers!]

Ooooooooohhhhh, you mean puppies. Well, then we agree. I don't reckon I would ever NOT vaccinate a puppy. I just won't be vaccinating any of my older dogs again. 8)

[Aroura]

Glad we agree then 8)

I also agree about the not over vaccinating adult dogs too. I do know the harm that it can do to some dogs, especially if they react badly. I always worry when vaccinating an animal when I get it, even just to finnish the baby shots. My kitten needs to have her final round of baby vaccinations soon and I'll worry about her as much as I do for the dogs. Personally though, I chose to vaccinate about every 5 or so years after the initial shots, I just feel safer that way :wink:

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Thanks, everyone.
My post sounded like I was intrested in SARF because of the name, but it was reading further into the subject that really got me intrested (Species Appropriate Raw Foods). I don't think I'll skip Rowie's vaccs, as their required by law here (I think, I'll have to make sure), and I decided not to take a risk with the whole not-giving-the-heartworm thing. Better safe than sorry! :wink:

Thanks again for the input, I've been researching for quiet a while now. I've decided to order the books, and judging by some reviews on other websites they're supposed to be really helpful. Who knew dog food would take so much time researching? For now, Rowie's on as good a diet as I can give her until I've researched enough. She's pretty healthy, actually. Pink gums, white teeth, clear eyes and ears. Her fur is nice and thick, with no evidence of rashes or allergies (she used to have skin irritations, plus ear infections...once I took her off Eukanuba and fed her a better diet of kibble, yogurt, egg...etc. she was much better). I've heard rice is also healthy for our lovely babies? Rowie will have some with her kibble about 2-3 times a week. Also, Rowie gets Brewer's Yeast tablets everyday.

[TDG]

since kibble has already a minimum of 50% grains, i wouldn't dilute that more by adding [i]just[/i] rice.

if you substitute a meal of kibble with rice and scrambled egg or a bit of meat now and then, that would be fine tho. as long as you don't add more than about 20% meat to the diet, the kibble will have enough spare calcium to make up for the phosphorus introduced by boneless meat.

and if you can find nutritional yeast (or torula yeast) instead of brewer's yeast, that would be even better. :)

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='TDG']since kibble has already a minimum of 50% grains, i wouldn't dilute that more by adding [i]just[/i] rice.

if you substitute a meal of kibble with rice and scrambled egg or a bit of meat now and then, that would be fine tho. as long as you don't add more than about 20% meat to the diet, the kibble will have enough spare calcium to make up for the phosphorus introduced by boneless meat.

and if you can find nutritional yeast (or torula yeast) instead of brewer's yeast, that would be even better. :)[/quote]
Thanks, thats helped a [i]lot[/i]! :D I think I'm starting to get the whole phosphorus and calcium thing. So I should include a bit of raw meat now and then? What do you suggest? Lamb/chicken/pork? And the organs/legs/necks...etc?
I'll try to find the torula yeast, but unfortunately I doubt I will find any where I live (yep, middle of nowhere, how did you guess? :lol: ). If not, should I go on with the Brewer's?
Thanks again, you've been a great help! :D

[TDG]

[quote]Thanks, thats helped a lot! I think I'm starting to get the whole phosphorus and calcium thing.[/quote]

great :) it's really not all that complicated. as you go along it will get easier and easier.

[quote] So I should include a bit of raw meat now and then? What do you suggest? Lamb/chicken/pork? And the organs/legs/necks...etc?[/quote]

yes, raw meat, or even cooked if you feel more comfortable about it, is a great addition. as much variety as you can possibly offer. eggs are also great! go easy on organ meat, it's very rich and likely to cause the runs if you aren't careful.

if you check in the "care" forum, i posted some veterinary designed recipes for kibble supplements there a while ago. they are taken from dr. pitcairn's book that i mentioned earlier in this thread somewhere. if you can't find them, or can't get the book, PM me and i'll send you the stuff.

[quote]I'll try to find the torula yeast, but unfortunately I doubt I will find any where I live (yep, middle of nowhere, how did you guess?). If not, should I go on with the Brewer's?[/quote]

yes, do stick with the brewer's yeast if you have to, it's still a great source of nutrients. the difference is that brewer's yeast is a byproduct from the brewing industry and nutritional/torula yeast is grown specifically for nutritional supplementation, nourished by a specific nutrient-rich substrate. this brings more nutrients into the yeast itself.

[quote]Thanks again, you've been a great help![/quote]

you are absolutely welcome. :)