Taurus and Jada Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 When you look at litters on the net, or inquire about them. they are grouped into " show quality" and "pet quailty". My question is, at such a young age how do you know? What do you look for at that age ? Just curious because I know colouring can often change as a pup ages, and a dog who has eyes a bit too light for the standard may have standard eye colour when they mature. Also, I dont understand how someone can know if the dog can have the correct tempermant at 8 weeks old? What sorts of characteristics do you look for at such a young age? I realize this will change depending on the breed, but I am just curious as to how the pups are divivded into "show" and "pet" qualities... Thanks, Kara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Ok... Can I give my oppinion? I'm having (hopefully if everything goes ok) my first litter next summer after Bella's eye- and knee examination. My breeder name application is pending in the Finnish Kennel Club and I've gone the first breeder course (and planning on going to the second one too when the course comes closer then 120km that I had to travel for the last one). I personally wouldn't classify any pup as show dog and pet dog. I think it's really weird that some people do. I'm going to breed Chinese Cresteds and they have some teeth problems (the genes for teeth are combined with the hairless gene so usually the more hairless the dog is - the less teeth it has (this is [i]very, very, [u]very[/u][/i] simplified!!!).) And some Cresties might have perfect teeth as a puppy but they turn into something really weird when they have changed into the adult teeth. So in my eyes it's just luck if a show quality pup actually becomes show quality as an adult. I think breeders classify pups on the way they look at [u][i]that[/i][/u] moment. They can't say for sure that the pup will actually be show quality as an adult. This is exacly the reason why I will not breed dogs for show only. I will try and make show quality pups ofcourse but I will not start putting labels on dogs unless they have some fault at birth that makes it impossible for them to go on shows (blue eye, overbite...). I would be thrilled if the owners of the pups would go on shows but that is not a must. I know so many people who have bought a show dog (puppy) that has never lived up to those expectations. So they have either abandoned him/her or given him/her back to the breeder. And now the dog is facing yet another home. So what I've been thinking is that I'm going to do my best to make show quality dogs but I'm not sure if I will sell a pup to a home where he/she wouldn't be accepted if as an adult he/she would have a fault. And I'm not thinking of me on this one or my wallet. I'm thinking of the pup. But I guess I will be labeld as a BYB. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Crested!! Congrats on becoming a breeder and getting your kennel name.. it does not sound like you are a BYB to me, you are goign to the classes, getting a kennel name, having the proper checks done on the dogs and i'm sure you'll get htem all health tested when they are pups as well.. Congrats ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Some of it comes from experience, some comes from knowing your dogs and some of it is just luck. I used to breed Shelties which has a very specific size standard, they had to be 13"-16" ATW anything larger or smaller is a DQ. That is a very small margin for error, and with a breed with so many backgrounds in larger and smaller dogs, it's very easy for a puppy to go over or undersized. A lot of breeders keep their choice puppies to grow out until they are about 6 months. A sheltie friend of mine kept her entire litter. One puppy had a difficult labour and was born with poor motor skills, so she kept her as a pet. The other two, she is growing out. It was a lovely litter and this is only her second breeding, so she's uncertain of who will turn out. Chances are, If I know her, she'll keep them all. :) This isn't all breed universal, just in the breeds I've been exposed to. You can tell some features are going to be solid on puppies when they are 8 weeks old. A good structure and angulation, it will go all wonky while they mature, but in my experience, if a puppy is of good structure when they're 7-9 weeks old, they'll go back after adolesence (keeping in mind the puppy has proper nutrition for the breed). You can usually get a good ideal of face structure at that age, again it will go all wonky while they are teens, but it usually comes back. Eye shape will usually keep. Eye colour might go, but I've never had that happen to me. I have this picture of my Newfoundland at 3 months, he's directly facing the camera, and another at 5, 7, 9, 15, 18 months. All of them look different. Then I have a picture of him at 2 1/2 years, and he looks like that 3 month old puppy, except a heck of a lot bigger and hairier. Temperament, I've found that I can tell whether a puppy has a good temperament at 8 weeks. Responsible breeders imo should be breeding for correct temperament as much as they should be breeding for healthy dogs. Ideally the pick puppy with all the wonderful physical attributes will have a great temperament, and for the lucky show person, even a showy personality (think of Josh at Westminster). And it's not just positive traits you can learn, but faults. You'll be able to see if puppies have bad fronts, toplines, heads, ear sets, tailsets, angulation or backs, if they are large, coarse, fine, doggy or bitchy and obviously colour. Those pups go straight into pet homes. Thankfully with the breeds I've been involved in, a lot of the faults are very specific and can be pinpointed from birth. More often than not, if a breeder fumbles with the pick puppy, it's usually themselves they are messing out of the pick, since most responsible breeders I know usually keep the pick puppy. And in the end, sometimes luck just throws a curve ball and that pick puppy falls apart and stays apart, or worse still, you raise one for 24 months, do some showing and they turn out dysplasic even though both parents are cleared. But usually, you can make some fairly good guestimates. Nothing in life is 100% and this is one of those fine examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 [quote name='DeafAussieLover']Crested!! Congrats on becoming a breeder and getting your kennel name.. it does not sound like you are a BYB to me, you are goign to the classes, getting a kennel name, having the proper checks done on the dogs and i'm sure you'll get htem all health tested when they are pups as well.. Congrats ;)[/quote] Thanks! :D I'm going to check both Ben's and Bella's knees and eyes (with Chinese Cresteds over here - no tests are nessecary and many think they are no good, but I still want to check both). Ben's especially for one reason - to know what to expect in the future. I will allso not use a dog as stud that hasn't had his eyes and knees examined. Plus that he has to be healthy otherwise. I allso want that he's gone to a few shows atleast so I know what diffirent professional people think of him (doing the same with Bella). The stud dog has to allso have good personality and look good in my eyes. I've got a couple that I'm interested in, but nothings sure yet. I want to wait and see what Bella's tests show first. There aren't many tests done on pups here either. But I'll do my best... It might require me to go several houndred km's but that will be worth it. I have even one more thing that I will not do. I will not take more dogs then I can care for. At this point I think I could mabye take one more but that's it. I can't take like 10 dogs that I can't take care of the proper way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 [quote]I will not take more dogs then I can care for. At this point I think I could mabye take one more but that's it. I can't take like 10 dogs that I can't take care of the proper way.[/quote] This statement is a little confusing. Don't you have to be prepared to take on more dogs in case any of yours get returned or aren't sold? If you're going to breed I'd think you would be prepared to keep more than one extra dog at least for a while and maybe some permanently in case of an emergency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 kendalyn: Oh, I didn't mean in that way. I ment that I will not BUY more dogs then I can care for. You know - several diffirent dogs from several diffirent breeders [b]+ my own pups[/b]. Ofcourse I will keep the pups as long untill I can find good homes for them or if they are returned. If you only browse through several breedes homepages you can see that many have +10-20 dogs plus their puppies (perhaps 2-3 litters at the same time). I ment that I will not do this, because how can I assure that every dog and pup gets all the attention and care that they desurve? That's why I've decided to only have a couple dogs and a maximum of 1-2 litters/year (by diffirent bitches ofcourse in the future - not immediately when I only have Bella). I hope this cleared things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 All of my friends who breed can spot their champion pup at about 6 weeks of age. Although its not that difficult to get a championship title on any dog, it depends greatly on who is handling the dog. All of my friends get their Canadian/American and Bermuda Championship titles on all of the dogs they keep or farm out...it doesnt take long at all for them. [quote]Ideally the pick puppy with all the wonderful physical attributes will have a great temperament, and for the lucky show person, even a showy personality (think of Josh at Westminster). [/quote] I have one of Josh's pups. Shenanigans, have you noticed that the Newf's being shown are not what the breed standard calls for? Breeders are looking for the next beautiful dog which catches the judges eye in a flashy manner. For my Newf's, they are not typical of what the breed should look like (years ago I had proper Newf's) and my Newf's are placed before the proper Newf's. I think in the Province of Newfoundland the have the right approach to a perfect Newfoundland dog...a Newf in that province is any thing which is black. Better genetics that way :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Oh Cassie, you don't want to get me started on what is happening to Newfoundlands. LOL What galls me the most is dogs being bred without the proper health titles. It simply drives me mad, and it seems that every second Newfoundland breeder couldn't care a less. I remember a breeder on Newf tech bragging that if such and such a dog were to show up at his door with flowers and an overnight bag for his girl, he wouldn't even check for healthy hips. What a travesty! I don't care how nice a dog (in any breed) is, if the health is not good, then the dog is not bred. Would you believe that I had a much harder time finding a Newfoundland breeder who routinely bred OVC cleared dogs than I would a GSD? That said, I'm not a fan of the floopy loose dogs that are being shown and doing the winning. I wouldn't want a dog that gaits like a 160lb puppy with no rear drive to pull a heavy load or attempt to save me from some nasty water. I want a dog that looks [i]square[/i], like the standard says not a long one. I don't need a 150lb dachshund! I want good angulation, the dog's hips shouldn't be higher than it's topline. But I don't want a Newf who's rear looks like a GSD because their stifles are so bent. A Newfoundland shouldn't have to be stretched like it's on the rack out to have four square on the floor. And the coats on some of these dogs, mind you, they're so scissored and sculpted it would be hard to tell if the coat was healthy. I don't want an open coat either, which a good number of dogs I've seen have, but again, they're so scissored. They're not meant to be big puffballs! I certainly wouldn't throw one of those dogs in the water, half of their overcoat is gone or open, they'd sink! I don't want [i]wrinkles[/i] on my dog, I'd get a Shar-pei if I wanted that, I don't want to see [i]haw[/i], it's a fault. Half of these dogs don't have a sweet expression, which to me is sooo important to this breed. A [i]clean[/i] muzzle, not a Mastiff, St. Bernard, Berner muzzle or head. A head is such an important crowing piece. One thing I have always admire about people on the east coast and Newfoundland is their good common sense and practicality. Many of the Newfoundlands out there do no justice to the design of that way of life or the purpose of this dog. Pant, pant, I think I ought to stop this rant short, I'm out of breath and my keyboard is crying out in pain. LOL Wouldn't you know I forgot something. I did mention Josh a couple of posts ago, but I just wanted to clarify that I was just specifically commenting on the showy dog in personality he exudes, he loved to be out there and it showed. On his other attributes, I'm afraid to say that he's not my cup of tea. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 with the shar-pei you have to wait untill the adult teeth come in the inside the mouth is the right colour (black or dark blue) about 5 months. If the parents have good tempament the puppies will have too hopefully I am hopeing to show the puppy I am getting but the breeder has told me she cannot not guarantee it..... By past litters she should be ok she is almost 5 weeks now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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