Kaleb124 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 On another dog forum there has been an ongoing conversation/debate about whether to rehabilitate a biting (one incident) newfie or to put the dog to sleep. I would love to hear your opinions and resoning behind those opinions. ----------------------------- The dog in question is 14 months old, 160 pound Male, and neutered 6 weeks ago. The dog has been through puppy kindergarden and .... (quoting from original post) "has some obedience for the average dog. He became testy ( would not come when called, drop- it type issues ) had him e-collar conditioned, but the trainer was not able to commit to weekly training with me and our dog.. If I could not be trained professionally, I wanted no part of it...so, I have an expensive e-collar collecting dust. He became testy ( would not come when called, drop- it type issues ) had him e-collar conditioned, but the trainer was not able to commit to weekly training with me and our dog.. If I could not be trained professionally, I wanted no part of it...so, I have an expensive e-collar collecting dust.. Our Newf now weighs 160 Lbs., willingly obeys basic commands, sits before eating, going out doors, down-stay, does them ALL well, has a beautiful, gentle personality with us, children, strangers, surroundings, etc. BUT, he has never would "drop-IT", if we wanted to take a bone from him, it would be a growl, sometimes he would snap at the air near our hands, then he would get sprayed with Bitter Apple, and he would drop-it... Bitter Apple became our crutch... he knows that I am not alfa, he knows hubby is... I never take things from the dog, I am the giver, hubby is the taker... A couple of nights ago, in the living room I witnessed the horror of my life... normal day, nothing unusual, dog was happy..Ted was eating cookies on the couch, dog goes and sits next to him, got no cokkies, went to go lay on the floor, but swiped a klennex of the table first, laid on the floor with his face on it.. Ted got up, stood in front of the dog and said leave-it, dog growled, Ted stepped back to get the bitter apple, and the dog LUNGED at Ted, biting his forearm, when Ted started to kick the dog, the dog LUNGED again and his sheer weight knocked Ted to the floor, and the dog was very focused in an attack mode... all that I could do was scream at the dog ""OFF"" and a lot of bitter apple... was over in 15 seconds, and the dog felt terrible and KNEW it had done something very wrong... Ted went to the hospital, got stitches in one of the bites, ER found 3 bites.... We are still in "SHOCK" to what happen.. the dog is in good health, well taken care of, and 95% a great companion that we thought we trusted well...as long as we didn't take a bone from him.. The reason the dog is still alive is because I beleive it is not a genetic problem, it is our lack of training, and making him know he is not ALFA in our house... I treat the dog like a human child, and realize now, how very wrong that is.. Three days have passed and the dog acts very withdrawn from us, he lays on the floor like he is totally worn out from the event, we are almost afraid to do anything other than feed him, and take him in the back yard. We have made an appointment with a renoun dog behaviorist in Boston to evaluate the dog in 2 days... if this is genetic, there is no hope for him... but I feel we made terrible mistakes, in allowing so many "Cute" things happen and in the dogs mind he was chalking it up to be ALFA.. We LOVE our dog more than words can say. I don't trust him now, but just hope that it can be corrected, I will do what-ever it takes... I just can not euthenize my dog.... he did something unexcuseable, but it may have been our lack of training him... I will have an expert tell us, we created the problem, or it was going to happen anyway, and if it is correctable... any thoughts would be greatly appreciated..." -------------------------- So my thoughts are that this dog can be rehabilitated....It the dog was (basically/acidentally) trained to act this way, it can be untrained. And the dog is only 14 months old. However, I do understand that this dog is a whopping 160 pounds and that is a huge issue. If you are interested in reading the complete post you can go to: [url]http://www.dogtraining.westhost.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4491&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 They feed a complete raw (barf) diet since he was 3 months old. They did have a vet check done (he is healthy), but a thyriod panel was not completed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyHoffman Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 The BARF diet actually slows down the growth of a dog. At full mature age, the dog will be what it should be, it just makes the growth plates grow stronger and slower. The BARF diet would not make this dog grow to a whopping 160# at 14 months. If this is not genetic, my feeling is that the dog can be rehabilitated. If it is, then maybe not! I hate to say "no way" based on the internet story. I'm curious tho, did they get this dog from a reputable breeder or from a pet store? That also can make a world of difference in the temperments/genetics of this dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 They did not get it from a pet store, but they did say that the breeder was a "BYB" after all. They did not know it when the dog was purchased. I have seen a Newfandland for sale at a petstore in Nashville....She was approx 3 months old and attacked the glass partition she was behind everytime someone walked up. VERY SCARY. Of course the hick-a-billies and their kids throught it was funny and kept harrassing her. :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyHoffman Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 What a shame Kaleb. A BYB ..... the pups may have gotten very little socialization or anything it needs in that critical 6 - 12 week period. I suppose it all depends on how hard they want to work with the dog, the money they want to spend and of course the tremendous time commitment this is going to take to fix ..... not just now, but for the lifetime of the dog. This is a sorry situation ....... :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjeffrock Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I would start out with checking thyroid levels. No doubt, behavioral training is a must. Since the dog has already bitten someone, it knows that it got a response from its action (even if its a negative response.) I was thrown into somewhat of a similar situation when my APBT bit one of my neighbors. I would try to find a certified behaviorist in the area, and work with him/her. If the behaviorist tells you that the problem can be completely solved, I would search for another trainer. As mentioned previously, this will take lots of time, money and effort. In my case, I decided that I was going to do absolutely everything possible before even considering putting my dog to sleep. Dex has progressed nicely since he started training. I wish them the best of luck! Kaleb- It's nice to see someone else on the board with a keeter. I was starting to feel a little lonely :oops: LOL, I am just kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote name='drjeffrock']Kaleb- It's nice to see someone else on the board with a keeter. I was starting to feel a little lonely :oops: LOL, I am just kidding.[/quote] WOW what a beaut!!! In the face it (he/she?) looks like my first Akita. She was solid white but had a black hood. Welcome. FYI -- I lurk a lot, but post a little. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 It sends shivers up and down my spine when I hear people using "pinch collars"...most times the collars are used incorrectly even by some "experts"...the poor Newf. I feel so bad for it...I started reading the other posts...and I gave up after reading a few...the dog sounds very confused. My own male Newf Dilon was also "dominant" and I was advised he was "untrainable" and stubborn...he also guarded resources (living in a kennel made him very food aggressive)...I used the "nothing is free" policy...and I use only "positive training" for this dog and my 5 other dogs...he responds very well considering the breeder my breeder bought him off could not control him without the use of a prong collar! :o Dilon is now competing in obedience trials and I am currently working on getting my CD on him...all it took for him was positive training...nothing is free policy and teaching off and take it...my other dogs now can even take a bone out of him mouth and there is not one of my dogs which guards at meal time. Perhaps the dog needs a better home which can provide structure...some people end up confusing a dog so much...and confusion can cause many many behavior problems. Just my opinion...also with the growth rate of that poor pup I would have its hips checked for HD...a large breed which grows too quickly can be prone to joint problems which can cause pain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I seriously doubt that the whole story is being told here. First she says that the dog's genetics shouldn't be questioned, then she says it came from a BYB, then she says they didn't know it when they got the dog??? Were they present at the time of purchase and pick up? What vet would neglect to do a thyroid panel? That doesn't make sense. [quote]sometimes he would snap at the air near our hands, then he would get sprayed with Bitter Apple, and he would drop-it... Bitter Apple became our crutch[/quote] Is spraying bitter apple at a dog whenever it shows aggression a good way to go about treating the problem? I've never rehabilitated an aggressive dog, but this just seems to me like it could exacerbate the problem. I thought this stuff was supposed to keep dogs from chewing on things. If it's getting in the dog's eyes could it be causing damage and therefore pain (which could make the dog irritable anyway)? [quote]Ted stepped back to get the bitter apple, and the dog LUNGED at Ted, biting his forearm[/quote] I think these 2 events are highly correlated. He knew what was coming. They need to quit it with the bitter apple, I really think it's making things worse. It's good that she has admitted that they have created a monster here and it is their fault, but they really haven't done much to correct the problem yet. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they need a new trainer/behaviorist. They should try a new vet also, or at the very least request a thyroid panel from the old one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 [quote]It sends shivers up and down my spine when I hear people using "pinch collars"...most times the collars are used incorrectly even by some "experts"...[/quote] I meant to say e-collars! :oops: but, I also think that alot of harsh training methods are unnecessary for getting a good dog. A dog can learn to avoid doing certain bad things with harsh training...but, it only represses the behavior...it does nothing to show the dog appropriate behavior. I praise the good behavior and redirect the bad behavior into good behavior. I think people get a little caught up in the wrong actions for bad behavior... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mutts4Me Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I definitely think that the dog was defending himself in a way, because he knew that the guy was reaching for the Bitter Apple, which the dog obviously would not appreciate. So the dog shouldn't be put to sleep, IMO, but he probably needs a different kind of training that doesn't put him on edge like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 If you read the original posts made by the owner, you will see that she mentions noticing a lot of dried blood in the dog's ear which is probably a result of her husband kicking the dog in the head after he bit him. There was no mention of taking the dog to the vet. That is neglect in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarFox Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Sounds to me like this dog is a product of bad training or no training at all. Actually this dog sounds a heck of allot like my dog. Zebra did the exact same thing, steal klenex, paper towels, or anything that he sholdn't have and when we would try to take it away from him he would growel, snap at our hands. But after TONS of training, he is fine with me taking things away from him. But in this case it dosn't seem that these people want to invest alot of time or energy on training him. [b]"If I could not be trained professionally, I wanted no part of it..."[/b] It also sounds like the wife is almost scared of this dog. And another problem is that this dog wants to be alpha all the time. And she even said that the dog dosn't see her as alpha. And that is a BIG no no! Both of them have to be alpha all the time. [b]"he knows that I am not alfa, he knows hubby is... I never take things from the dog, I am the giver, hubby is the taker... "[/b] And I agree with the previous posts that people wrote, that the dog was protecting himself because he knew that he was going to get sprayed in the face with bitter apple. In my opinion these people have 2 choices; rehome the dog with someone who has experience with alpha/agressive dogs or, they can take the time themselves and not only train there dog how to behave but train themselves so that the dog will respect them. I think the owners have allot more to learn then the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 I agree completely with what everyone has said. The dog was definitely defending itself. This attack was provoked in the worst way! That is what angers me so much when some say to put the dog to sleep! Rehome possibly, PTS no, not yet anyway. I feel super bad for the dog. I cannot imagine it's confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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