Clicker training?

[Nancy B]

I'm gonna answer several posts at once. :)

Ive read several very good books on clicker training but, if you were to buy only one book, I'd recommend "Clicker Training For Obedience" by Morgan Spector. You can get it at Dogwise, here [url]http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB606[/url] It's one of the first books I bought and I still use that book all the time!

That book does go into some of the fundamentals of operant conditioning but, what's really helpful to a novice clicker trainer is that it also breaks all the formal obedience exercises into tiny portions and tells you exactly how to train them.

There are a few clicker classes in my area now. When I started with the clicker there were none. I taught myself using books and later on was able to go to some seminars. It's not difficult to teach yourself clicker training from books, you just need to be very careful of the timing of the click. The click "marks" the desired behavior and most folks tend to click far too late. One exercise to help you learn to click at the correct time is the tennis ball one. Get a friend to help you. The friend tosses a tennis ball straight up in the air for 8 feet or so. You have to click when the tennis ball has reach the apex. If you click when it's just starting to come down, you're too late. If you click when it's still going up, you're too ealry. The friend will be able to tell you how your click was timed. I've seen this done with a whole calss of new clicker trainers. Sounds very funny. They start out and you hear clicks all over the place. After a while you start hearing all the clicks happening at the same point and that's what you're after!

Some of the classes I've attended allow clickers in the class even though they are not clicker classes, some don't. Usually the ones that do allow clickers in class are run by folks who are a bit knowledgable about clickers and understand that dogs will quickly understand that only their owner's click will get them a treat. The classes that don't allow clickers usually don't for two reasons. Either they insist on you training your dog "their way" or, because they don't really understand clicker training, they fear you clicking may be a problem with other dogs.

If you want to use a clicker in a non-clicker class you need to check with the instructors before class to see if it's OK.

Quite honesly, I don't usually take a clicker to class even when it's allowed. I teach the behavior at home before we're ever in a class and while it may not be "solid" enought for me to discontinue using teh clicker at home, I regard class as sorta a "match" atmosphere. You can't take a clicker into a ring with you so, not using it in class is good practice for the dog.....as long as you are doing the training at home!

As far as the dog not performing if you cease to use the clicker, then the dog was not entirely trained and proofed on the behaviors. The clicker is for training! It makes it very clear to the dog what behavior will be rewarded. Once that is clear you need to do proofing...set up circumstances where you will be asking for a certain behavior that is contratry to the dog's natural tendancies. For example, my dogs are incredibly food driven. When i'm proofing a down I may put my dog in a down and then proceed to drop treats in a circle all around him/her. Now, theyr'e gonna want those treats very badly but, at that point, they also know that mom has told them to down and that they'd better stay where they are or there will be consequences. (Some folks do physical corrections at that point if/when the dog breaks, I don't. My "consequences" are for the dog to get a reproachful look with an Uh Oh, and have to do the exercise again.)

If you are sure that your dog knows the required behavior, proof it. If your dog doesn't hold during proofing, go back and reinforce the desired behavior. If you've done that and your dog is still breaking you may have to "raise" the level of consequences above what I do. Dogs are usually very willing to please and, once they understand without a doubt what behavior you're looking for, will turn themselves inside out to do it.

[Bubblezzz]

Thanks Nancy B! ... but I have one more question... :oops: :oops:

Does this mean we will still be dependent on treats anyway? I've tried reinforcing using praise, or play, but I can tell Cosmic still expects a treat and isn't happy when he doesn't get one!!

This means that he sometimes won't perform tricks, unless he sees me holding the treat, or standing near food. :P

I will look up the book you recommended and browse around the dog training section at our bookstores. :)

[Aroura]

Bublezzz, its a good idea to fade out the treats gradually, dropping out a treat every now and again and gradually working to only rewarding every now and again. Dogs are more likely to remember and respond to training if treats are faded out - its more like a game where they think "when am I gonna get the treat???". In studys it has been proven that if you use variable reinforcement rather than reinforcing every time it is more likely the command will be preformed and less likely that it will be forgotten.

[Marble]

Hey Nancy- Thank you SO much for this information! I've been thinking about it more and more and I am going to try clicker training with Dresden. She's been horrible to train because she is very very intelligent ( you probably already know but she's a Dobie/ACD mix, insane ) and learns everything but won't do it most of the time unless I'm standing right next to her breathing down her neck. Sometimes I'll tell her to do something I did not think she learned and she'll do it perfectly and I'll of course be stunned. I've been thinking and thinking about how there must be some effective way to train her and I just feel like there is some key that is missing, and if I could find it she would do really well and be more motivated......... I keep thinking that because of her combination of breeds that there is something different I need to be doing that I don't know about.

I do have a question though, what clicker do you think is best? I saw the redi-clicker with the finger loop which sounded like the one you recommended......... Anyway, thank you so much.

[courtnek]

I have always trained with praise and play, EXCEPT for recall, which is too important. And she still wont recall consistently, so maybe I did it wrong.....


:oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

Courtnek, I'd say maybe your reward (for coming when called) isn't enough of a motivator, and you need to either find something different that she wants more, or increase her drive to get the object you're using. Or, if you use a correction for not coming when first called, maybe try a different correction.

With Annie, who has a great recall, I made sure at first that I always had something she LOVED with me any time I had to call her in for something. (She's got really high prey drive, so I can turn almost anything into a "toy" for her, and there's been a couple times when I've pulled out a glove, or grabbed a stick off the ground to use for her reward if I didn't have anything else.) She never got to see the reward until she got to me, so she never got into the "show me first!" habit. For her, toys were a much bigger motivator than food, praise, or anything else; so that's what we used. Once she was coming back every time, I started only producing the toy on especially fast or tough recalls, and only praising the "ok" ones. Eventually, the "ok" ones didn't even get any praise, but the "good" (fast, but not especially difficult for her to choose to do) ones still still did, and the "great" ones got a ton of praise and a toy reward. Now, she rarely has "ok" recalls, and I've even been able to call her out of chasing cats and other small furries (those were "great" recalls :lol: ).

In what situations do you have the most trouble getting her to come back to you? And what do you do when she doesn't, but you don't have her on-leash to pull her in anyway?

[Nancy B]

[quote name='Bubblezzz']Thanks Nancy B! ... but I have one more question... :oops: :oops:

Does this mean we will still be dependent on treats anyway? I've tried reinforcing using praise, or play, but I can tell Cosmic still expects a treat and isn't happy when he doesn't get one!!

This means that he sometimes won't perform tricks, unless he sees me holding the treat, or standing near food. :P

I will look up the book you recommended and browse around the dog training section at our bookstores. :)[/quote]

No, you shouldn't be dependent on treats past the training stage. Once your dog is trained and proofed, he should perform consistently. Of course, even if he does it's not a bad idea to treat very occasionally to reinforce a well known behavior.

I will sometimes treat Whit or Mason for very simple behaviors....sit, down, stuff like that. They have no idea a treat may be coming, I've concealed it in my pocket ahead of time. (Sometimes many hours ahead of time!) I know that they would still do the behavior I ask but, since they know that sometimes a treat may be offered, they perform the requested behavior very quickly and with enthuasim.

When you start off clicker training you click/treat for all correct behaviors. After the dog is solid on that you'll switch to a variable reinforcement schedule. After you've been in this stage for a while you'll need to do the proofing that I mentioned in a previous post. when your dog is solid with proofing you don't need to use treats at all anymore if you don't wish to. I personally continue to use them sparingly and on no schedule just so that I maintain the dog's enthuasim at a high level.

[Nancy B]

[quote name='Marble']I do have a question though, what clicker do you think is best? I saw the redi-clicker with the finger loop which sounded like the one you recommended......... Anyway, thank you so much.[/quote]

Any clicker will work just fine. I do prefer the ones with loops just because with everything a trainer has to juggle, it's a big plus not to have to worry about holding onto the clicker. I have clickers without loops, a clicker on a key chain and a clicker on a retractable "string" that clips to your pants at the waist. They all work just fine but the looped ones are my favorite.

I have a LOT of clickers. I leave cllickers and large containers of "charlie bear" treats in different locations around the house. Near the computer, in the bedroom, kitchen, family room.....Ilike to have impromptu training sessions whenever i feel like it. :) I've gottta say that Whit perfected her "stays" while I was brushing my teeth in the morning and evening. Started off doing it with her in the same room and she "graduated" to out of sight stays in the bedroom. I do lots of training like that!

[Nancy B]

[quote name='courtnek']I have always trained with praise and play, EXCEPT for recall, which is too important. And she still wont recall consistently, so maybe I did it wrong.....


:oops:[/quote]

I don't understand. A recall is very important so, why would you choose to train it without treats? I'm not at all saying that it can't be done but, what you're shooting for is a dog that, when called, turns and drives back to you as quickly as possible. To get that speed and desire to return, it's a natural to use either treats or a toy in training for motivational reasons.

I'm only talking the training phase. I do not believe in having to "bribe" a dog to command a behavior once the training and proofing is done!

[Bubblezzz]

[quote]Once she was coming back every time, I started only producing the toy on especially fast or tough recalls, and only praising the "ok" ones. Eventually, the "ok" ones didn't even get any praise, but the "good" (fast, but not especially difficult for her to choose to do) ones still still did, and the "great" ones got a ton of praise and a toy reward. Now, she rarely has "ok" recalls, and I've even been able to call her out of chasing cats and other small furries (those were "great" recalls ).

[/quote]

WOW! That's great! :angel:

[quote]They have no idea a treat may be coming, I've concealed it in my pocket ahead of time. (Sometimes many hours ahead of time!)[/quote]

Cosmic has a REALLY good nose and usually won't stop sniffing & sticking his nose in my pockets when he knows there're treats in there! I've just bought us a proper treat pouch (the drawstring kind) and it seems to work better. :) We brought Floppy and Cosmic for long walks on the weekend and I practiced recalls (Cosmic on leash) sometimes with praise and with treats when they came immediately. They did pretty well! :P

We can't afford training sessions right now so I'm planning to clicker-train them on my own. :o :lol: Hope I don't make irreversible mistakes and screw them up!! I haven't started yet as I'm still reading up (currently "Culture Clash" and "The Everything Dog training and tricks book").

Nancy B, I can't find clickers for sale ANYWHERE :o , so I'll be using a cheap party noise maker that makes a loud click. That should do right? Plus they're really cheap, so getting lots to leave around the house won't cost us much at all. :D Haven't found "Clicker training for obedience" yet!
[/quote]

[Nancy B]

[quote name='Bubblezzz'][quote]
Nancy B, I can't find clickers for sale ANYWHERE :o , so I'll be using a cheap party noise maker that makes a loud click. That should do right? Plus they're really cheap, so getting lots to leave around the house won't cost us much at all. :D Haven't found "Clicker training for obedience" yet!
[/quote][/quote]

Sure, the party noise maker will work just fine! If those don't hold up and you want a "real" clicker, I ususally buy my clickers from J and J but, I've bought from all three of theses sites.
[url]http://www.jjdog.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=1CATCLICKERTRAINING[/url]
[url]http://store.yahoo.com/clickerpets/traininggear.html[/url]
[url]https://secure.dv1.net/clicker/[/url]


"Clicker Training for Obedience" is at Dogwise here: [url]http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB606[/url] I've ordered dozens of books from Dogwise and never had a problem. Amazon also has it at [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962401781/qid=1055124996/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4744458-8392635?v=glance&s=books&n=507846[/url]

Karen Pryor has also written several very good books on clicker training. If you can get a hold of one good clicker book, it should make your training go much easier.

Clicker training really is a lot of fun for you and your dog! Go to the clicker links on my kid's obedience page. some of those links offer free online subscriptions to clicker training articles. They can be a big help when you're starting out.

Good luck and have fun!

[Bubblezzz]

Many thanks Nancy B!

The links were really useful, esp. clickerlessons. :) I've printed out the beginning lessons and will start associating "click = treat" once I get home today. :)

I'm so excited about this, hopefully Cosmic will catch on and then we'll have so much fun!! :D :D I've been trying to teach him 'nose' (touch your nose) for AGES :o just by using the word, showing him (moving his paw to touch his nose) and treating... but he doesn't get it on his own. :o He'd look at me quizzically and offer a sit or a down or anything else that might get him a treat!! :lol: :roll:

Once this new language works with my baby, I can start Floppy on it too and we'll have 2 OBEDIANT dogs!!! :o :o :angel:

Thanks everyone!! :D[/b]

[Nancy B]

[quote name='Bubblezzz']
I'm so excited about this, hopefully Cosmic will catch on and then we'll have so much fun!! :D :D I've been trying to teach him 'nose' (touch your nose) for AGES :o just by using the word, showing him (moving his paw to touch his nose) and treating... but he doesn't get it on his own. :o He'd look at me quizzically and offer a sit or a down or anything else that might get him a treat!! :lol: :roll:
[/b][/quote]

Wow, you've picked a very hard trick to train! OK, with clicker training you don't manipulate the dog's body at all. I've never trained my kids to touch their nose with their paw but, if I were to do so, here's how I think you'd do it with a clicker.

Using a clicker, you "shape" behavior. Once you've "loaded the clicker" or in other words, just gone through a couple of dozen click/treats, the dog should understand that when it hears a click it will get a treat.

To shape paw touching nose you need to shape the dog moving it's paw. Sit down on the floor near the dog, get comfortable and wait. If the dog sees the clicker, chances are that it's gonna start offering behavior in order to earn a treat. (If your dog does not know enough about clickers in order to start offering behavior, clicking/treating for a few simple things like "sit" and "down" may help it get the idea.) Pay close attention and click when some movement moves a paw closer to your hand or you could use a target stick. Keep clicking and treating behavior that moves a paw near your hand or target stick. when it's gotten the hang of that, raise the level so that you're clicking /treating for a paw touching the hand/target stick.

Start to shape the paw on nose by putting your hand or target stick on the dogs nose and click/treat if the dog moves it's paw up toward your hand/iits nose. When it's consistently doint that, raise the level to requiring a touch to your hand/target stick. When the dog is solid on that try to place your hand on the side of the dog's muzzle opposite the side of the paw the dog is using....so that it's still on the muzzle but, when the dog goes to touch it with his paw, it will either miss it or not hit much of your hand....mostly hit it's own nose. Do that a lot and reinforce heavily. Gradually move your hand a bit farther so that the dog is never touching your hand, only it's own muzzle/nose. Reinforce this behavior heavily with clicks/treats. At this point you can attach the command "nose" to the behavior you've shaped. Keep reinforcing and over time, once your dog is solid, you may switch to a variable reinforcement. IOW, say "nose" and when your dog does it tell him good boy but, don't click/treat. Maybe require him to do two "nose" commands to earn a click/treat. Gradually you may require three "nose" commands to earn that click/treat and so on. Now, you have to be careful about the variable reinforcement. Don't give two commands right after each other or you will start training the dog to touch it's nose twice in a row in order to earn a click/treat. When you switch to variable it's best to require the command, praise the dog if it does it and move away a bit to a different position before asking for another "nose".

As I said, paw touching nose is a tough one. Training a dog to touch its nose to its paw would be much easier!!!! If i ever trained that I might wind up breaking it down even more.

[Bubblezzz]

:o :lol:

whoo-hoo... I guess we moved to a toughie BEFORE really learning about HOW dogs learn... :P We got lucky with several other commands, teaching him stuff like SIT, DOWN, PAW (he places his paw wherever we indicate), STAY, HIGH-FIVE etc. :) I will lay off NOSE for a while, until he understands the clicker fully!

Oh, Nancy, for the commands he already knows, is it good to command, click and treat? I haven't been clicking (command, treat) since he already responds to the command cue. But I was wondering if it might be good to use the clicker with commands he already knows to reinforce what the click means?

We started last night with me just clicking and treating. I think he couldn't believe his luck!! :P He is learning to associate the click with a treat, looking up at me when he heard it even when bf was playing with him! :) But when I tried clicking this morning, it didn't really work. :-? Guess it would take us a few days. We'll keep at it (he's definitely having fun) and hopefully can report a new learned trick soon!! :D

[Nancy B]

[quote name='Bubblezzz']:o :lol:

whoo-hoo... I guess we moved to a toughie BEFORE really learning about HOW dogs learn... :P We got lucky with several other commands, teaching him stuff like SIT, DOWN, PAW (he places his paw wherever we indicate), STAY, HIGH-FIVE etc. :) I will lay off NOSE for a while, until he understands the clicker fully!

Oh, Nancy, for the commands he already knows, is it good to command, click and treat? I haven't been clicking (command, treat) since he already responds to the command cue. But I was wondering if it might be good to use the clicker with commands he already knows to reinforce what the click means?

We started last night with me just clicking and treating. I think he couldn't believe his luck!! :P He is learning to associate the click with a treat, looking up at me when he heard it even when bf was playing with him! :) But when I tried clicking this morning, it didn't really work. :-? Guess it would take us a few days. We'll keep at it (he's definitely having fun) and hopefully can report a new learned trick soon!! :D[/quote]

Well, the reason the trick is hard is simply because a dog touching it's nose with it's paw isn't really a natural behavior. Yes, occasionally a dog will bow down and sorta "rub" it's muzzle with one or two paws but, they don't usually just lift a paw up and touch their nose.

If you wanted to clicker train your dog to touch his paw with his nose, it would be much easier! :D Any behavior a dog naturally does (sit, down, bow, shake, whatever) is easier to train than an "unnatural" behavior.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to go back and reinforce commands that he already knows using your clicker. It would serve a dual purpose....help reinforce the use of a clicker and also reinforce the behavior (sit, down, etc).

One behavior that I train very early is "touch". To my kids, touch means touch their nose to either my hand, a target stick (if I'm holding one) or whatever I'm indicating. "Touch", as a command by itself, isn't really that useful but, you can incorporate it into many other behaviors later on. Whitney learned heeling by keeping her nose in the "touch" position on a target stick. Agility contacts were easy to train once I taught them they needed to "touch" the target with theri noses.

Touch also comes in handy for getting a dog to offer behavior. I was playing around one day with the clicker and a basket. I wanted to see how long it would take Whit to "understand" that I wanted her to pick up the basket. At first I clicked/treated if she just looked in the general direction of the basket. Then, after a while, I didn't reward a general look, she had to look AT the basket. We did that for a while. Then I stopped clicking for that and waited. Whit got very wound up. She knew that I still had the clicker and treats and she was beside herself trying to figure out what I wanted. She offered sits, downs, bows....all kinds of stuff, just about every behavior she knew. Finally she tried "touching"the basket. Click and JACKPOT! (A jackpot is an extra special treat or a larger amount of treats.) She offered a "touch" because she'd alread been trained to "touch" stuff. She understood immediatly that she needed to touch the basket. OK, she started off touching on the side and I did reward for that for a while but, when I ceased rewarding that behavior, she started to "touch" the basket all over the place. Eventually she "touched" the handle and earned a c/t. I rewarded touching the handle quite a bit and then stopped again. Once again she was beside herself trying to earn a treat. Yes, eventually she did grab the handle and earned another jackpot. I reinforced that heavily and finally attached a command, "get it".

Start to finish it took less than an hour for Whit to learn to pick up the basket. BUT, don't expect that speed from your dog. Whit's been working with a clicker for years and understands quite well that when the click/treat stops I'm looking for a slightly different behavior and she's very creative about offering it. You have to work with a clicker for quite a while (or with a very young pup) in order for the dog to understand that, when the clicks stop, they need to start offering behavior.

Oh yeah, the "get it" is actually a very practical command. I can point to anything that I think Whit is physically able to pick up and say "get it" and she will. At this point, I've also trained a retrieve to go with the "get it" so, she gets whatever I point at and brings it to me! Retrieveing her dumbell in obedience is a "get it" and so is being sent into the backyard to get a towel I forgot! :D

[Bubblezzz]

Thanks Nancy B!!! :angel:

It's been slightly more than a week since I started clicker training and we have results!!! :D :D :D When Cosmic sees me take out the clicker (cheap party noisemaker type) he hurries up to me and sits in anticipation. :angel:

I've taught him how to STAND (up on hind legs) and we're practicing LICK (lick lips), TOUCH (touch nose to my hand), TWIRL (stand on hind legs and circle) and HOP (little hops on hind legs). :D :D :D I haven't added any command words for these actions yet as they're not near 100% proofed. But I know he has fun - his wags gives him away. :) Or it could be the ultra yummy sausage & liver bits he knows I have...lol! :roll: Right now when we practice, I show him a motion cue and he'd either get it straight away or offer actions till I C&T.

Our sessions last anywhere between 2-8mins each time and it's amazing how he already understands the clicker despite the short duration!!! :D I read that optimally training sessions should last about 10 mins, but I shortened that as he's still a puppy (6mths). It's SO hard to stop when the going is good though!! :D

Cosmic will also follow my hand, walking or running, as an extension of TOUCH! :) Heehee... just had to brag a little... :roll: :oops: :wink:

[Nancy B]

It sounds like Cosmic is taking to clicker training like a duck to water! :D Amazing isn't it? Once your dog knows what the clicker means, they really do turn themselves "inside out" to earn that click/treat. A wonderful and powerful tool!

Doing multiple short training sessions each day is best. You don't have to do 10 minutes so, don't worry about it. Sometimes when I'm polishing a particular behavior I may only do a few minutes at each session....but I may do ten sessions a day! :)

Congrats on your success and I wish you many years of happy training with Cosmic!

[Sparks mom]

I have done some clicker training in the passed...I like it myself...
I need to get on Spark with it...

^Mulligan & Tucker^ trained very easy...
but then they were Goldens :)

[Marble]

i just wrote a whiny post about how long it is taking dresden and how i still have to keep the clicker in my pocket......and i now have to edit it because i just worked with her for a few minutes and saw some real progress. first, i had the clicker out of my pocket and she barely even jumped the first time i clicked it. second, she was watching the clicker and even was touching it to try to get me to click it so she could get her treat!!! third, i am teaching her sit, up and down, and also to show me her teeth and i think she's catching on!!!!!!!! she doesn't like to show me her teeth but i think she'll get it if i'm patient enough :) oh how sweet it is to be making some progress.

[Bubblezzz]

Thanks Nancy B! :)

Yay Marble!! :D I know exactly how you feel!! :) Cosmic is understanding stuff a lot faster with the clicker - like Nancy B said, it's such an amazing tool! Almost like a communication/translator device! Good luck with your training Dresden too! :)

[Marble]

thanks for the encouragement bubblezzz- i was working with dresden again last night on coming from a down up into a sit, she did really well the first several times but then she got lazy and just laid there. i was like "oh no, now what do i do??", then i thought i'd just ignore her and see what happened. a minute or two later she (she'd been staring at me the whole time) sat up and as soon as she did i c+t'd. she did the same thing a total of two more times (being lazy) but each time she sat back up like she was supposed to faster and faster, the last time she was up almost right when i lifted the treat up (to get her back into a sitting position! it was awesome! let me know how it goes with cosmic too! :) and that nancy b, she's a smart one :)

[Nancy B]

Aw shucks...thanks Marble!

Sounds like you and Dresden are doing very well with the clicker! I just love it when the dogs understand that they need to start offering various behaviors to earn that click/treat! It makes them such very willing workers and training sessions are so much fun!

[Bubblezzz]

Yay! Go Dresden!! Go Marble!! :B-fly: :banan: :banan: :jumpie:

Yes, Nancy B is great!! :thumbs:

Thanks Nancy B! :D

[Nancy B]

Just posting to this thread to bump it up so yellowlabs rule can find it! :)