Kiger Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Argh! Won't this stupid "fact" die? Die! Die! Die! And check out the guy who says you should stay away from breeders unless you want a show dog: [url]http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180562[/url] And may I also suggest the "Pit Bulls should be outlawed" thread: [url]http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180566[/url] BTW, keep it civil or they will ban you although they do have a forum called The BBQ Pit if you must flame someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
science_doc Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 I don't think "hybrid vigor" is a myth...... :wink: Want me to come and "help" the other side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
science_doc Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 For those of you who missed it(LOL), check this out: [url]http://www.discover.com/apr_03/featscienceof.html[/url] At the very least this is an interesting article in a fairly good science magazine (note, not a peer reviwed journal) I would love to debate this topic again :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Mama Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 [quote]And check out the guy who says you should stay away from breeders unless you want a show dog[/quote] I read this thinking from your statement he was going to talk about pet stores or some other unfortunate method of procurement. However, he was simply saying that if you just want a pet to adopt one that needs a home. What is wrong with that? Did I miss something? IMHO, there are other ways to get good pets than buying from show breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 :wink: I don't have a problem with someone wanting to adopt/rescue a pup from a shelter. IMO, if someone wants a average dog, no pedigree required then the local animal shelter or rescue is a perfect place to adopt a family companion. These pups can make excellent companions and are not always ridden with health issues or temperment problems, and can often be more loyal than a pure-breed. However if someone has a need, whatever it may be, to own a full-blooded pedigreed dog then they definately should look for a reputable breeder and make sure that their are no health issues and quarantees, you get it the whole works. If your going to buy from a breeder make sure that they are in it for the love of the breed and not anything else; otherwise you may have been better off buying that puppy in the window. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 There is a certain amount of scientific fact supporting the fact that mixed breeds are healthier - it's not completely a myth. The reason is that when man decided to create breeds for specific reasons/looks/responses, (the golden is an excellent example) they bred out some attributes that didnt fit their wants. Not intentionally, but it still happened. Nature has an odd way of giving you so many things you CAN have, and no more.....When the "wild" was bred out of wolves, I believe some of the stamina was too. Without intending to, we bred dogs with bad hips, eye problems, temperament problems, even from dedicated, loyal and good breeders. The "bad" breeders only made it worse, because they took dogs with genetically potential problems and bred them anyway. Those dogs became "problem children" and were labled. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Pit Bulls; they have all fallen under the knife because of bad breeding or intentional "mis"breeding (for instance, to make them more aggressive). I had a purebred Golden Retriever, sweetest animal on earth, but had typical genetic health problems. I am also concerned (as you all know) with people buying certain breeds of dogs because "they are SOOOO good with kids!!" - They're NOT, unless trained properly and dominated properly. I sent a message to that guy about wanting a Golden with just that warning. People buy labs for the same reason, and then cant understand why the dog bit their kid when it slept on the beds, everyone waited on it hand and foot and it was never made to understand that it was not the Alpha in the household. Dogs are ANIMALS! As much as we love them, we have to understand that. Most of us do, but the novice dog owner is in for a shock if he buys a dog according to "Breed Standards" and it attacks his kid..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullygirl29532 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I like the tread for ban the Pitbulls. It's great to see that for every idiot that wants to ban a breed there is 100 plus who know where the real problem lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marble Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 all i have to say is that my eight year old mutt is the healthiest dog we've ever owned and we've had our share, mostly labs, on GSD and one wiemeraner. i'm not a scientist so i'm not going to get all riled up and argumentative but from what i've seen there are a whole lot of mutts out there that seem to be very healthy and i know a lot of purebreds with crazy health problems. i would never condone breeding mutts on purpose but i would also probably (i can't say definitly never, you never know) never own another purebred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I CAN NOT GET INTO THE SITE--GETTING A MESSAGE TECNICAL PROBLEMS I WILL TRY AGAIN LATER THE BEST SHOW DOG BREEDERS GET PUPPIES "FOR PET HOMES ONLY" WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THESE IF ONLY PEOPLE WANTING A SHOW DOG APPROCHED BREEDERS :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 [quote=Mary's Mama]I read this thinking from your statement he was going to talk about pet stores or some other unfortunate method of procurement. However, he was simply saying that if you just want a pet to adopt one that needs a home. What is wrong with that? Did I miss something? IMHO, there are other ways to get good pets than buying from show breeders.[/quote] No one ever said there wasn't, but he specifically told him to stay away from breeders period because they have all kinds of health issues - that was my beef, not that he recommended a shelter dog. It seems like nowadays most people think breeder = miller, so I was trying to put out the message about responsible breeders and how to find one if he decided to take that route. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about hybrid vigor. I sure saw a ton of unhealthy mutts when I worked at the vet - mostly "poo-dogs". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 [quote name='science_doc']For those of you who missed it(LOL), check this out: [url]http://www.discover.com/apr_03/featscienceof.html[/url] At the very least this is an interesting article in a fairly good science magazine (note, not a peer reviwed journal) I would love to debate this topic again :P[/quote] Interesting article which I agree with. Surprised? I really don't think there is much to debate though. I agree that there is such a thing as hybrid vigor - but not in most dogs. The reason [i]I[/i] think is because most mixed breed dogs are still the creation of humans and not natural selection which would weed out the unhealthy specimens. Just look at all the crosses popping up all over now that are the work of backyard breeders and millers. They aren't using healthy stock and mixing them isn't creating dogs that are any better off then their purebred parents. What I do agree with is that some of the purebreds could use a little refreshing of the gene pool (not gonna happen though), and I'd love to see show breeders stop going for the extreme. I think my main issue with hybrid vigor (and I probably won't explain this right again) is that the average person thinks it means mutt=healthy, purebred=bad. You can't really continue to think that way in light of all the irresponsible people purposely breeding mixes. I mean check out this site where they are selling all kinds of mutts for $500 and up: [url]http://www.pups4kids.com/pups_available.htm[/url] I don't think hybrid vigor is really going to save the unsuspecting public from getting an unhealthy dog from these kind of places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 And slight hijack, but does anyone else think "Puggles" are the ugliest new mix? If you scroll down the page on the site I linked to in my above post, you can see the adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
science_doc Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Hooray Kiger, I agree 100% with your statement that pure=sick/mutt=healthy is believed incorrectly by many average people. I also agree that many dog breeders do strive to imporve the breed and are doing the best they can with the rules currently in place. I will even agree that the average mutt that has had poor nutrition/care it's whole life is likely to be a sick dog too. However, I am so happy that people out there see the problems with the closed gene pools of some show dogs. I haven't ever said that fixing the problems would be easy, but if we don't start to think about this now, it could get to be too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Yes i also agree, some breeders just dont care, they go in and in and in But not all breeders are like that. One of the biggest problems in pedigree dogs is the lack of honesty, the brushing things under the carpet :o How can anyone improve and better a breed with all the dishonesty that happens. It takes time research and MORALS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullygirl29532 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Call me crazy but I think the Puggle is cute,so is the boston beagle but WE ALL know i'm biased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 The Boston Beagle looks a bit like RNP's Drey. but Dreydin is heaps cuter. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 :-? [quote]I am also concerned (as you all know) with people buying certain breeds of dogs because "they are SOOOO good with kids!!" - They're NOT, unless trained properly and dominated properly. I sent a message to that guy about wanting a Golden with just that warning. People buy labs for the same reason, and then cant understand why the dog bit their kid when it slept on the beds, everyone waited on it hand and foot and it was never made to understand that it was not the Alpha in the household. Dogs are ANIMALS! As much as we love them, we have to understand that. Most of us do, but the novice dog owner is in for a shock if he buys a dog according to "Breed Standards" and it attacks his kid.....[/quote] I agree with this, RR's are one of those breeds, absolutely great with children, [b]IF[/b] they are trained properly, you can not allow any dog regardless of their ancestry to believe that it is Alpha. However, talking to a responsible breeder first will educate the buyer about the pro's/con's of owning a dog, any dog. A truly responsible breeder will be able to help the buyer decide if a pure-bred is what they really want or would they be just as happy with a rescue or shelter pup. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 Did you like the guy with the Ridgeback who's "idiosyncracies" included unprovoked biting? Same dog jumps up on grandma and knocks her down - a known problem but hasn't dealt with it. :o That thread is here: [url]http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180554[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 :wink: Kiger - I thought the thread was pretty good for a thread on RR's. Somebody already had told that person to have that dog checked out so I didn't feel the need to jump on them again. I did post to the topic since even the RR owners didn't really have the facts completely, although I ended up posting it twice and I can't edit the second one to say opps. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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