My local dog park is being overrun!

[Mary's Mama]

Sorry that was me, guess I got kicked out and didnt know it.

[bullygirl29532]

They go from waggin tail to malice in an instant. I believe they dont really even know what they are doing.[color=red] most go into attack mode with a wagging tail. Their tail is the rudder it is always moving. Any person who knows their dog knows the sign of aggression. For lecter it's the fur around his neck and along his spine that gets bristly. he'll stop jumping around and square off against the other dog. very rarely will he give a warning growl before he strikes, so I have to be attentive. I treat him like I treat my toddler. I know where they are, what they are doing and what they are about to do next. All these reaons given by other people are the reason I keep my dog with others like him. If my dog wrestles with another APBT the owner knows APBT will be what they are. If it were a Lab or GSD dog/owner I'd have to hear all about my out of control dog and what a threat we are to society. Even if it was a harmless encounter that happens between all breeds all the time.[/color]

[Guest Anonymous]

Marysmama- i know you never SAID they were monsters but it was implied. Its like they are all on the edge of zoning out and ripping apart any breathing animal. with that mode of thought then no dog should be in a dog park, ALL dogs have the ability and propensity to bite. just because a dog has the ability to be a formidable fighter doesnt mean it will be. what you are saying sounds like BSL to me, pit bulls shouldnt be allowed in dog park, that is what you said. and then said it is irresponsible to take on there. until a dog shows aggression to other dogs there is no reason to not take it to a dog park. now once that slightest bit of aggression is show by all means find a new place to go, but its not fair to have to seperate your dog because of its breed. Now Drey plays fine will all sizes and breeds of dog, he romps with the little dogs and he wrestles with the big ones the other owners there aactually compliment me on his behavior and how playful he is. Now that is attributed to him being socialized with other dogs, we always start on lead and if he reacts well to the dogs i let him off. most people walk in a dn just release thier dog, i need to see my dog meet every other dog there to see not only his reaction to them but their reaction to him. I wish more owners practiced this as it would definately cut down on fights.

[Mary's Mama]

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]Marysmama- i know you never SAID they were monsters but it was implied.

[color=blue]>This is my point exactly. We all know that all dogs can fight, however, it is fact that a pit is more inclined to fight another dog due to their breeding. You automatically assume I mean something I dont. Please listen to what I say, not what you think you hear.[/color]

just because a dog has the ability to be a formidable fighter doesnt mean it will be.

[color=blue]>Correct. But why should my dog be your test case?[/color]

what you are saying sounds like BSL to me, pit bulls shouldnt be allowed in dog park, that is what you said.

[color=blue]>I said that we do not have BSL, and I do not think we should. There are quite a few am staffs that come to the park that are not a problem. Pits from fighting lines are though. I am not making it up, I am telling you exaclty what has happened. Each dog is evaluated individually. No pit has been able to behave appropriately to stay.[/color]

and then said it is irresponsible to take on there.

[color=blue]>I understand you feel that you have every right to take your dog to the park, which I agree you do. My question to you is, when does the right of one outweight the right of the many? Just because you can go doesn't always mean you should. I believe it is irresponsible to take your dog there until he attacks because another dog/family will be hurt just so you can find out that your dog finally has started to show aggression. Potentially dangerous dogs of any breed should not be at the park.[/color]

until a dog shows aggression to other dogs there is no reason to not take it to a dog park. now once that slightest bit of aggression is show by all means find a new place to go, but its not fair to have to seperate your dog because of its breed.

[color=blue]>Its not fair to learn this at another dog/families expense. You chose your breed of dog. You must accept what comes with it. I dont have a pit because I want a dog that can socialize and not be a potential threat.[/color]

Now Drey plays fine will all sizes and breeds of dog, he romps with the little dogs and he wrestles with the big ones the other owners there aactually compliment me on his behavior and how playful he is. Now that is attributed to him being socialized with other dogs,

[color=blue]>For now, yes he probably will. But one day you go to the park, all seems fine, you follow all the standard precautions. Drey and another dog are running and playing and near by another group of dogs starts to get to rough and the potential for a fight occurs. Because Drey was running you are not immediately next to him and within seconds your never aggressive dog jumps in the potential fight and before you can get to him he has injured another dog. I have seen this exact event happen on more than one occasion. I am not making up stories for my enjoyment. It is not fair for you to learn a lesson you already know about at someone else's expense. Please think about the other park goers rights before exclaiming your rights.[/color]

we always start on lead and if he reacts well to the dogs i let him off. most people walk in a dn just release thier dog, i need to see my dog meet every other dog there to see not only his reaction to them but their reaction to him. I wish more owners practiced this as it would definately cut down on fights.

[color=blue]>As an FYI - In my role as a paws patrol volunteer I have had to attend behavior classes and have been taught how to recognize signs early. One thing we learn is to never have a dog on leash in the off leash park. Leash aggression on both sides, off leash dogs sees an easy target, on leash dog feel trapped and afraid, can lead to serious issues. I have witnessed fights started due to a leashed dog feeling trapped and threatened. If the dog had been off leash, the dogs could have proceeded with proper greeting by canine ettiquette and no fight would have ensued. You might want to do some more research about proper dog park ettiquette.[/color]
[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

Moat Apbt's over the age of eight months should not be taken to dog parks. They will be blamed for anything and everything that may happen.
There are some Apbt's that could be taken and would be fine with other dogs but why chance it? Why risk your dog getting blamed for something and then having to be put down?
Also the owner of the Apbt's in questions sounds like an idiot to me . If you are going to take your dog to the dog park Any dog (not just an Apbt)you need to be extremely watchfull that they are all getting along because if your dog gets into it with another dog(I am not reffering to Apbt's here as they are unlikely to bite in this situation) they may snap or lash at the other dogs owner as well and you could be blamed for having an aggressive dog! Dog or Human aggressive dogs of any breed should not be taken to dog parks.

[gooeydog]

Not all pit bulls DO give signs before they get into a fight with another dog... they may be playing happily, then within (literally) 1/2 a second, they'll be going at it. The play doesn't even have to be rough, and there may not be a visible trigger. Even if there is, the two seconds of warning you may have aren't usually enough to get your dog out of that situation. Or if another dog should run up and jump on them (like the boxer and pit in RnP's story, though maybe not aggressively, just in play), you probably wouldn't have time to stop your dog from reacting if it was going to. You would only be able to break up the fight once it was started, and by then the damage (to both the dog(s) and the breed's rep) is already done.

[Guest Anonymous]

your mind set is astounding! your saying that its better to have the dog off lead? but hes vicious remember, and i would much rather have the ability to pull my dog away from a potential fight then to have to run into the jaws of a strange dog to try to stop one. i know my boy and he doesnt bite but any other dog of the street may. Congradulations on taking a class by the way, its great that you care enough to learn more. I still prefer my way of bringing a dog into the park, I would still prefer to be able to pull my dog away from an aggressive dog as opposed to just letting him runup to any dog and get bit. A little insight into my dog Drey is a very active puppy particularly with big dogs as he has always been around big dogs he plays rough. he jumps up on them and runs and wrestles hard so smaller dogs dont interest him much. But when he gets to a bigger dog they usually want to do the whole sniff and greet but he want to play NOW!!! so he jumps up on them before they are ready, that can lead to a fight as the other dog could take it as a challenge of sorts by holding him back and letting the dogs sniff and greet first they meet on a good note and the rough play doesnt get misunderstood. He is about 5 months now and growing like a weed so he is full of energy and play. i want him to be as socialized as possible we go places that are populated by people and dogs for that reason. im sorry that the area where you live is populated by bad owners, dont pigeon hole me based on them. im sure they dont spend the time learning and talking about their breed of choice as the people in this forum do. lets not forget who is brining the bred down and who is trying to uplift it and change public perception, okay? i consider Drey and myself to be ambassadors to the breed, we have changed many people minds about pit bulls and will continue to do so as long as we can. even after he gets dog aggressive we will still meet people and and show them the gentle side the breed posseses.

i would hope that the people here could appreciate that bullygirl, goo you know what i mean. its something bully owners know well, the out and out fear people have of your dog, based solely on looking at it. It sucks.

[slim86]

Okay, I must apologize.

I should have said, "My dog park is being overrun by APBT's and there ignorant owners that only have them as a status symbol".

The people in question are the ones who let there dog off leash and go sit down on a bench and start chating or get on there cell phones.

The owner of these two particular Pit Bulls was a 110lb girl who was on her cell phone most of the time. Even if she wanted to do something about her dogs I seriously doubt that she could have.

Now in contrast to these other owners, there was a guy who never let his APBT out of his sight and if it was wrestling with another dog he stood over his dog and kept a hand on each hip just in case anything happened. The Pit Bull played so cute with this Jack Russel that I found myself giggling as I was watching. I thought to myself, it's sad that a dog who could play so well with another small dog had to be supervised so closely. I thought, this owner knows exactly what his dog is capable of, he knows axactly what comes with the breed and he has accepted the responsibility.

Before I bought my GSD, I read about how to properly socialize them and found out all about the breed. I think the owner that followed his dog around and never let it out of his sight did the same thing. On the other hand, the majority of the pit bull owners that come to my dog park and could care less what there dog is doing did not know much about the breed and had their Pit Bull only as a status symbol. I think this is a very dangerous situation.

It's the ignorant owners that are creating the situation and not the dogs. I should have thought about that more before I wrote my original post. Verry sorry.

Slim

[Guest Anonymous]

First, I would like to know how you know these dogs are APBTs. Do you know they are full-bred or are you just assuming. If you are assuming, use pit mix or something, not APBT. This is where so many statistics get messed up.
Shar-Pei's were never used for fighting. They were brought to the US under the MISCONCEPTION they were fighting dogs. They soon found out they were wrong.
APBTs cannot be trusted around any other dog, again, REGARDLESS of socialization or training. Unfortunately people think they can take the dog aggression out of the dog and that will never happen. They end up learning the hard way.

[Guest Anonymous]

No diagreements with that, dogs are pack animals they thrive on contact. and even pit bulls like to with other dogs as puppies. NOONE is going to change my thinking on that puppies like to play. Now once a dog matures things change i will be the first to admit that Daz hasnt been to a dog park in years because he matured to be dog aggressive so we dont go anymore. Drey isnt he loves dogs he whines with anticipation and loves to play and until he gives me reason to doubt that we will continue to go. now im not saying that it will be asquabble at the dog park. if we are going for a walk and he growls and get aggressive with a dog in our neighborhood thats good enough for me to know its starting. im a realist i dont have mixe dup notions about my dog or his heritage. his heritage is why i got him, i know what a pit bull is and what a pit bull is not. Most people that get them want a dog that is mean and want a dog that tries to fight, sad but true. you dont see many pit bull or pit mix owners out doing positive things with their dogs. I am really surprised at some of the responses i am reading. a puppy is just that a puppy, no matter what it may or may not do as an adult that is no reason to treat it badly as a baby. I say be ready for the worst case scenario that way your never surprised by your dogs actions. If you have the slightest inkling that your dog my fight or be aggressive you have no business with it being in a dog park leashed or not. But until you have reason to think that i say let a puppy be a puppy.

[bullygirl29532]

its something bully owners know well, the out and out fear people have of your dog, based solely on looking at it. It sucks
[color=blue]Now Rott it doesn't suck all the time. like when i take him for his nightly walk. to walk around my "block" is 3 miles, alot of that is not very well lit with a couple of liquor stores and open fields in the area. people hang out in them and get drunk. Have I ever been messed with? not once. do I need my dog to defend me? NOT at ALL. I can take very good care of myself but people see me and a pit they leave us alone. if they say anything it's usually "nice dog". when lecter see's people or dogs he wants to approach he starts to wimper and pull in that direction. some think it's a sign of aggression, i know he wants to say hi or sniff some tail but I just shorten his lead tell him easy and keep moving. I use every chance I can to show openminded people that APBT should NOT be HUMAN aggressive. We go to the neighborhood kids baseball games, civil war reenactments, and outdoor festivals to change the sterotype. Some people will not accept what they didn't learn from the t.v, no matter how incorrect it is.[/color]

[pei obssessed]

[quote name='Hmmmm']Shar-Pei's were never used for fighting. They were brought to the US under the MISCONCEPTION they were fighting dogs. They soon found out they were wrong.[/quote]

Just to set things right here and tell you that I do know what I was saying about Shar-pei (although I agree I was probably off with the APBt and their owners--as I said, I don't own one, so I'm ready to admit that you, owners, know better about their instincts and the way they can come up no matter what you do)... Not that I care that much, but the Pei were shortly used for fighting in Hong Kong and China (true, not in the States), although, granted, not with much success :D

"Beginning in the late 1950's, the center of the Chinese Fighting Dog history moved, or rather was driven, in to Hong Kong by the Chinese Communist. Prior to this time, Chinese Fighting Dogs were found exclusively in Macau (Macao). Even as late as 1974 clandestine dog fighting involving Chinese Fighting Dogs could still be found in this region." (from [url]http://www.drjwv.com/newsletter/?view=5-1.php[/url] )

"Contrary to popular belief the Shar-pei WAS NOT BRED FOR FIGHTING, although they were used for fighting for a short period of time they had to be drugged or given wine to make them aggressive. Their original purpose was for Hunting,Herding and companionship for the Peasant Farmers of China." (from [url]http://www.geocities.com/nswsharpeiclub/history.htm[/url])

[bullygirl29532]

Now that is just what any house hold needs a drunk dog you are trying to piss off. What were they thinking? :drinking:

[Mary's Mama]

Why are you avoiding my very important questions?

No one has responded to why instead of "crying poor me, the pit is the victim" you aren't out educating the bad owners to help improve your breeds reputation. Become active, make a difference, otherwise stop complaining.

Can you guarantee that Drey's first act of aggression will not be a squabble at the park? Is it "right" to use someone elses beloved pet as your test case? What are you gonna do in the situation I described? You can't believe that would never happen right?

When do the rights of the other dog owners to be safe outweight your right to simply go to the park?

If he has never shown signs of aggression, how will you know the signs to stop an attack? If you know the signs, you know he's aggressive, why are you at the park? And as goo said, the chances you can actually prevent it are extremely small.

You can think my comments about the leash are crazy. But...it is proven fact. Have you read anything about leash aggression? How are you gonna pull him away from a dog that is unleashed? You have him trapped. The unleashed dog is only going to move with you. Whether or not you think it is crazy, it is a proven fact that leashed dogs in off leash areas are at a higher risk of attack. And especially because of his puppy play you should have him off leash. You want him socialized right? Then he needs to learn that that behavior is unacceptable and they only way he can learn it is from another dog.

You have given me no compelling reason as to why or how it is safe to take him to the park knowing that at any minute his true colors could shine through.

[meehs]

I haven't read all of the posts on this topic because there as so many of them but I wanted to put in my two cents worth based on the ones that I did read because I am an owner and afficianado of the bully breeds.

I have a 50 pound male Staffy Bull, Max, and a 117 pound (he keeps getting bigger) male Olde English Bulldogge, Titan (pictured by my name). I used to take them both to the local dog park. I believe that with any of the bully breeds you have to be VERY vigilant when you take them into a park with other dogs off-leash. No, these dogs aren't monsters but they do have a greater inclination to fight than a lot of other dogs, simply because at one time, that's what they were bred to do. Combine that with the tremendous amount of damage they are capable of doing in a very short period of time and as an owner of these breeds you MUST pay close attention to your dogs at all times.

Anyway, after a few intitial trips to the dog park that went very smoothly, Titan began to get into fights with other dogs. In each case (this happened three times on two separate visits to the park) I got Titan off the other dog immediately and apologized profusely to the other dog's owner. In one case Max, seeming to follow Titan's lead, jumped in and joined the fray. I don't take Titan to the dog park at all any more. I think it would be very irresponsible to do so. Max on the other hand has proven that he can do just fine there if Titan stays at home. Any owner that has a dog that has shown aggression towards other dogs and an inclination for fighting shouldn't even consider taking their dog to a public dog park. It's obviously very poor judgement and irresponsible ownership to think otherwise. That's not to say that ALL pitbulls (and the like) shouldn't be allowed in dog parks. Some of them, like Max, can do just fine there.

I love the bully breeds and I'll always jump to their defense if it makes sense. I do however think that Slim is 100% right in his concern with the APBTs at his dog park. Those dogs simply should NOT be there! I would say the same thing if the dogs doing the attacking were Rotts, Dobermans, Mastiffs or Chihuahuas or Dachshunds!!! The fact of the matter is that they were pitbulls and yes, they do tend to display these behaviors more often than most other breeds. I know this from being around a LOT of bully breeds throughout my life.

I just can't believe that anyone would jump to the defense of these dogs and call Slim a "breed racist" or whatever just because APBTs are their breed of choice! No it's not the dog's fault, the owner shouldn't have them there but to point fingers at Slim and accuse him of pandering to the media's protrait of what a pitbull is etc, etc? PUH-LEEZE!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

no the way for him to learn his behavior is unacceptable is for me to corect it. I definately do not want some other dog trying to dominate my dog, listen to yourself in one breath you say how dangerous they are but the very next post now they should be loose. stick with JRTs okay because i have a flawless record at our dog run three over the course of 4 dogs a rottweiler, 2 dobermans and now a pit bull and not a single incident. im sure your books tell you one thing but life experience and hands on knowledge are what i go by. Andif you read my posts i never avoided a single question you have asked i told you we are ambassadors of the breed because people often have an instant kinship when they have dogs of the same breed it gives you a way to talk to them without coming on like a jerk. We talk to everyone we meet i make an extra effort to speak to people with pit bulls. we meet outside of the park without the dogs just to hangout and tlak at times. I am a very proud that the owners in my area dont seem to be as irresponsible as the people in yours. there are the occasional nitwits but then agian there always is. I do my best o take a positive light wherever i go. Noone can make that guarentee about any dog. YOur JRT may have never gotten into a fight but that is not to sya taht one day it wont, if your dog has teeth and a mouth it can bite.

I can totally believe that one day Drey might get into a fight, hes a pit bull, Look i am not one of these owners that your talking about, okay so dont belittle me and my intelligence on the breed. talk to me as an equal i know as much about these dogs as anyone in the forum. Now that that has benn taken care of lets get back to the discussion.

As far as the rights of other dog owners to go to a safe park i am totally there i agree 100% but until my dog shows that he is a threat to that right i am not going to treat him as such. YOU are avoiding this: can you tell me tat iron cladd, without question, 100% honestly that any other dog in the dog park will NOT bite? No, no matter what breed this is an issue of aggression, Drey IS NOT aggressive. Drey has shown no sign of aggression if anything he is overly submissive to other dogs. Licking thier muzzles, tail tucked and rolling on his back. Now i know what aggression is THAT AINT IT. He is a puppy. I am listening to you Marys mama I hear your plight and agree that some dogs that enter a dog park probably shouldnt be there, but they are not just the pit bulls and mixes.

Of course i know what an aggressive dog looks like I have one. i know Dreys demeanor, if he ever seems to be not quite himself around dogs then its over there are plenty of other activities for us to do. the dog park is a place he enjoys as of right now.

[bullygirl29532]

[color=red]where oh where to start this might take awhile.[/color]
Why I think slim was overreacting this is to meehs

"All three dogs were chewing on my dog."
drama. chewing implys eating.

"The owners of the boxer just stood there and called his name. The girl with the 2 APBT's did nothing to stop it."
[color=blue]please notice both owners were idiots but the first line expressly says APBT.[/color]

"I grabed my dog and as I was trying to put his leash on one of the APBT's and the boxer came back at my dog. "
>once again the main point of this whole thing is THE PARK IS OVER RUN W/ APBT.

"screamed at the top of my lungs at the APBT's. It was all I needed to do to get them off." AND "Very angry now, I screamed at the top of my lungs at the dogs and they left."
if they were mauling the puppy do ya think this would really call off 3 dogs that weren't your own? just my point.

"As I left the dog park, I screamed at the girl with the APBT's (foul language included)" very civil ain't it. drama.

"Something funny happened after I screamed at the girl with the Pit Bulls. The guy getting ready to enter the park with his pit bull put him back in his car and left." someone please explain how this is funny...oh maybe slim sees it as a VICTORY. JMO

"I know the boxer was involved too but I don't think I would have had a problem with the boxer had the Pit Bulls not started the fight in the first place." BUT "The boxer had been showing dominance on my GSD for a while." do we see what i'm getting at?

Now Mary to this
"you aren't out educating the bad owners to help improve your breeds reputation."
just how would we go out to find bad owners and BYB of our beloved breeds? This goes out to everyone. Should we take out an ad? would it read something like- Calling all irresponsible, unethical dog owning idiots- yeah that would work.

"If you know the signs, you know he's aggressive, why are you at the park?" you mean to tell me that if a dog has EVER growled (which is a sign of aggression) it should NEVER be allowed to a dog park. do you mean human/dog/stuffed animal aggression. please be more specific next time.

"You have given me no compelling reason as to why or how it is safe to take him to the park knowing that at any minute his true colors could shine through." NOR does anyone have to. free will it's a b*tch. what is right for one is not okay for another. every rat terrier i've every met (4- small number of rats in the world) have tried to bite my dog. the jack/rat and chi next door come into my yard and bother my boy through the fence. do i hold all of these dogs in the world responsible for the actions of a few? NO. I accept the Dog agression on it's own terms. it is not the whole APBT but only a small part of the whole dog. IMHO the APBT is more good than BAD as a breed. Saying you won't allow or don't approve of an APBT in a social setting is Your OPINION period. I don't tell people how to raise their children be it human or animal. I'll be d*mned if anyone will give me unwanted advice or talk/type to me in a condesending manner.

" that's all I have to say about that." and you can quote me.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]no the way for him to learn his behavior is unacceptable is for me to corect it. I definately do not want some other dog trying to dominate my dog, listen to yourself in one breath you say how dangerous they are but the very next post now they should be loose.

[color=blue]* This is perfect example of you taking my words out of context. I have never said all pits are dangerous or vicious, I have explicitly stated otherwise. I know that you will continue to take your dog to the park until that fateful day, so I thought I would give you some kind advice to make your visits more peaceful. Unless you know "canine" language, you can't teach him that. He has no idea why you have him on the leash and the others get to run free. And it is not another dog dominating, it is normal canine behavior and ettiquette. A warning growl or snap is not dominating, it is teaching a pup respect, an extremely important part of socialization. And not all of this comes from books, I spent multiple hours at the park observing and experiencing. My job is doubly hard b/c I must watch all the dogs not just my own.[/color]

stick with JRTs

[color=indigo]*What does that have to do with anything. They all aren't sunshine and roses you know. I might not be able to handle a pit but I know you couldn't handle a JRT either, so we're even[/color]

okay because i have a flawless record at our dog run three over the course of 4 dogs a rottweiler, 2 dobermans and now a pit bull and not a single incident.

[color=blue]*you are a very lucky man, I hope for others sake your luck doesn't run out too soon[/color]

im sure your books tell you one thing but life experience and hands on knowledge are what i go by. Andif you read my posts i never avoided a single question you have asked

[color=indigo]*You haven't answered a single one. Sayin you do a good job and talk to others is not educating current irresponsible owners[/color]

i told you we are ambassadors of the breed because people often have an instant kinship when they have dogs of the same breed it gives you a way to talk to them without coming on like a jerk. We talk to everyone we meet i make an extra effort to speak to people with pit bulls. we meet outside of the park without the dogs just to hangout and tlak at times.

[color=blue]*But you don't go to the areas of town where pits are kept in cars and so thin they can barely stand up. You dont reach out to the owners that are not like you[/color]

I am a very proud that the owners in my area dont seem to be as irresponsible as the people in yours. there are the occasional nitwits but then agian there always is. I do my best o take a positive light wherever i go. Noone can make that guarentee about any dog. YOur JRT may have never gotten into a fight but that is not to sya taht one day it wont, if your dog has teeth and a mouth it can bite.

[color=indigo]*Of course all dogs can bite, we have been over this a thousand times. You can not deny that pits will fight quicker and cause more damage than most other breeds.[/color]

I can totally believe that one day Drey might get into a fight, hes a pit bull, Look i am not one of these owners that your talking about, okay so dont belittle me and my intelligence on the breed. talk to me as an equal i know as much about these dogs as anyone in the forum. Now that that has benn taken care of lets get back to the discussion.

[color=blue]*I am not belittling you or your intelligence. It is just that his propensity to fight and his ability to cause serious damage is much higher than most other breeds. This increases the risk of the situation. IMO, it is too high of a risk, much higher than most other breeds.[/color]

As far as the rights of other dog owners to go to a safe park i am totally there i agree 100% but until my dog shows that he is a threat to that right i am not going to treat him as such.

[color=indigo]*That is just it. Because it is definite that some day he will be a threat means he is a threat, and should be treated as such. You know that he very well could show his first signs at the park and it could cause serious damage to another dog that someone else loves very much. How are you gonna feel when that happens. You'll be the guy on the 6 oclock news "I am shocked, he has never been aggressive before" so why is it pits have a bad rep?[/color]

YOU are avoiding this: can you tell me tat iron cladd, without question, 100% honestly that any other dog in the dog park will NOT bite? No, no matter what breed this is an issue of aggression, Drey IS NOT aggressive. Drey has shown no sign of aggression if anything he is overly submissive to other dogs. Licking thier muzzles, tail tucked and rolling on his back. Now i know what aggression is THAT AINT IT. He is a puppy. I am listening to you Marys mama I hear your plight and agree that some dogs that enter a dog park probably shouldnt be there, but they are not just the pit bulls and mixes.

[color=blue]*I have already addressed this I believe.[/color]

Of course i know what an aggressive dog looks like I have one. i know Dreys demeanor, if he ever seems to be not quite himself around dogs then its over there are plenty of other activities for us to do. the dog park is a place he enjoys as of right now.

[color=indigo]*Many pit owners have said that you have to learn each dogs triggers and signs. I took this to mean that there is not a universal code and therefore you would need to witness an episode before being able to know the triggers/signs.

At least you are willing to stop taking him after he becomes aggressive. That is more than most. I just know that if my dog gets hurt because an owner of a pit puppy has to learn the hard way, I will have that dog put down! I think it is the "wait and see" approach that gets most into trouble and causes the bad rep of the breed.[/color][/quote]

[meehs]

After reading your last post I have to admit that I do see your point Bullygirl. Slim may have been overreacting and placing an undue amount of emphasis on the fact that two of the dogs were APBTs. Especially considering the fact that the boxer seems to have been the instigator!

I also [i]definitely[/i] agree that an owner shouldn't keep their bully breed at home under the assumption that it "might" be aggressive towards other dogs "someday". There are dogs of all breeds that have the potential to be aggressive. It's just that our bully breeds have the potential to do a lot more damage. As owners of these breeds I think we just have to be extra vigilant. Unforutnately our dogs are subject to enough bad press as it is without more irresponsible owners adding to the problem.

[slim86]

Okay bullygirl,

I was lying about the whole thing. I hate all Pit Bulls, I think they should be banned everywhere. I'm totaly ignorant. There has never been any incident with a pit bull at the dog park I go to and I'm just trying to upset all pit bull owners.

Happy now, bullygirl?

Slim

[bullygirl29532]

ya know what Slim i wsan't happy the first time you made a snide, condesending post to me and it ain't much better now. i'm not saying your a liar just a Drama Queen. this ain't about you anymore. my post about you was to someone else EXPLAINING why I felt the way I felt.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='bullygirl29532']
Now Mary to this
"you aren't out educating the bad owners to help improve your breeds reputation."
just how would we go out to find bad owners and BYB of our beloved breeds? This goes out to everyone. Should we take out an ad? would it read something like- Calling all irresponsible, unethical dog owning idiots- yeah that would work.

[color=indigo]*So you are completely clueless as to where these owners are hiding? Do you have a breed club in your area? Can you go to the areas of town where pit ownership is high and pass out flyers on the street? Do you go to the shelters and give potential adopters information? They are out there!! Why is it every good pit owner has never met a bad pit owner but the rest of us meet bad pit owners everywhere we go?[/color]

"If you know the signs, you know he's aggressive, why are you at the park?" you mean to tell me that if a dog has EVER growled (which is a sign of aggression) it should NEVER be allowed to a dog park. do you mean human/dog/stuffed animal aggression. please be more specific next time.

[color=blue]*No, you know as well as I do that every dog is different and their signs of starting a fight are different, their triggers are different. Each owner must know their own dog. To know your own dog you will have had to see it in that situation. So change my statement to say "if you know his signs,..." Same difference.[/color]

"You have given me no compelling reason as to why or how it is safe to take him to the park knowing that at any minute his true colors could shine through." NOR does anyone have to. free will it's a b*tch. what is right for one is not okay for another. every rat terrier i've every met (4- small number of rats in the world) have tried to bite my dog. the jack/rat and chi next door come into my yard and bother my boy through the fence. do i hold all of these dogs in the world responsible for the actions of a few? NO. I accept the Dog agression on it's own terms. it is not the whole APBT but only a small part of the whole dog. IMHO the APBT is more good than BAD as a breed. Saying you won't allow or don't approve of an APBT in a social setting is Your OPINION period. I don't tell people how to raise their children be it human or animal. I'll be d*mned if anyone will give me unwanted advice or talk/type to me in a condesending manner.

[color=red]*I understand this which is why when someone says, my dog got attacked by a jack, I say "Yeah that sucks some of them are aggressive" I dont automatically refuse to believe that a jack could do anything wrong and continue to blame the victim for over reacting. That is my biggest issue with pit owners, I understand they have a bad reputation but refusing to admit their tendencies and abilities will not fix it. Take responsibility and do something rather than harp on us! How does blaming the victim for being upset about an incident solve anything. You can't make us change our perceptions without making an effort to change the root problem first.[/color]

" that's all I have to say about that." and you can quote me.

[color=indigo]I only do this as a tool to make sure I touch on each and every word, instead of selectively choosing what I would like to respond to and leaving the rest out. It is easier for the others to follow this way too![/color]
[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

I do what is possible i spend time with owners good and bad talking and teaching as well as learning, something that you need to be a little more llwilliing to do it seems. Okay now a wrning growl or snap may be to keep a puppy in line but when that puppy is a pit bull it can also be a trigger to aggression, so lets not go there. My comment about you sticking to JRTs is meaning that your dog would be one of those unsocialized leash lunging snarling dogs that i hate to see. so stick to JRTs because at thier size its less of a liability.

and i dont think its luck i dont leave the well fare of my dogs to luck i leave it to training, socialization, and vigilance on my part to keep them out of bad situations.

I make it a point to talk to owners that are not like me, they are the ones that need the help. why would i spend time preaching to the choir? (Which you seem to be enjoying right now) I like to talk to like minded people but when it comes to educating people i talk to young people and the people that i see doing it wrong. Those are the people that matter and those are the people that are damaging the breed.

OKay let get this said so we can not hide behind the statement:
PIT BULLS CAN BITE, IF GIVEN THE CHANCE THEY ARE EVEN MORE LIKEY THEN MOST DOGS TO DO SO. PIT BULLS CAN DO LOTS OF DAMAGE IN A SHORT TIME, HIGH JAW STRENGTH, IMEASURABLE PAIN TOLERANCE, AND THE GRIT TO NOT LET GO MAKE THEM A FORMIDABLE DOG. PIT BULLS ALSO HAVE A HIGH DEGREE OF DOG AGRESSION. okay now that you have heard it from me you can stop saying it to me, i know this already. what i am telling you is that not all pit bulls are vicious and pit bulls are not dog agressive from birth, there are pit bulls that never get aggressive, there are dogs that turn on at a weeks of age and dogs that turn on at years. its about the idividual dog that you are dealing with, a good owner knows thier dog. now you may not be able to look at Drey and know what he is thinking , just likke i could never tell what your dog is thinking. BUt we know our own dogs. YOu know yur dogs triggers and signs, if someone wants to pet your dog you can look at your dog and tell weather or not its a good idea. If you cant then you shouldnt have your dog in public.

you are right every dog has different trigger as of now Drey has none has has never showed a sign of aggression, does that mean i breath easy at the dog park? NO it means i watch him twice as hard because i dont know what could be trigger. I dont know if some dog tugging on a stick will set him off or some dog "yelling" at him or any thing else so i am at no time far from my dog.
Its nice to know that you would have a dog put down for the first incident. I know how i would feel if my dog did bite someones dog but to think that that person would be so mad as to wish my dog were dead actually makes me mad so i am going to leave that subjest alone for right now, take a couple breaths and then address it.

[meehs]

I don't like posts like that because it's too confusing and you end up rereading a lot of what has already been read. So I won't do it.

I just have to point out that the question that was asked: [quote]Why is it every good pit owner has never met a bad pit owner but the rest of us meet bad pit owners everywhere we go? [/quote]
is 100% completely ridiculous! Where'd you come up with that???

I've owned pit bulls and other bully breeds my whole life and I've met [b]PLENTY[/b] of bad pitbull owners! Unfotunately our breeds are the breed of choice for gang members, drug dealers and other assorted punks of all kinds! I can't even beleive someone would make that statement! Absurd! I'd like to point out that it's also true that there are irresponsible owners of ALL breeds of dogs.

I notice that there are a lot of instnaces here where people make broad sweeping statements without any facts to back them up here. I bet if you went and talked to ten "good" pitbull owners, at least nine of them would tell you that they've met [i]way too many[/i] "bad" pitbull owners. C'mon!!!

[bullygirl29532]

Mary if i go to those area's even to pass out flyers. I will be arrested for attempting to by drugs. any white person found in those area w/o ID saying you live there is buying crack. that is how the police see it. or better yet the dealers think i'm a narc and shoot me. either way i'm SOL.
most shelter around here kill pits no question asked. mine was smuggled out by a volunteer, who paid his bail and slipped him out to a friend of mine the day before he was suppose to die. the papers said his original owner picked him up. I as well as any other pit owner has never said "oh the breed is dog friendly". we due know the truth. I understand that MOST incidents concerning the breed can be avoided but in this case I still believe to be a whole different thing. All of my comments are for this case I was presented. Not a general discussion but someones one perspective, someone I know NOTHING about who opens a thread in such a manner and than proceeds to treat me like an idiot. Some one who couldn't even have a civil discussion among his/hers own peers, by their own admission, concerning the actions of the offending dogs. I met bad dog owners every day, around here though the dogs are labs, on very short chains, left in the yard like the abandoned childrens toys they were bought to be. Maybe i just live in pitbull shangrala. in past places i have seen many terrible things, dogs , and owners but i still say there are more good ones than bad on average.