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help me with my new dog


Luka-pop

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Hi! I just adopted a new dog and I'm also a new member. You may already know about me because of my friend cheetah. This is very long, just cuz there is so much to explain about my dog. Well, my dog is a male red and white lab cross named Luka. He's one years old. :D He was given up by his previous owners because he had separation anxiety that they couldn't deal with. As a first time dog owner, I need some major help with this dog. We can't even leave him alone for a minute yet. He will start barking and will be self-destructive in his crate. Every where I research says the same thing - leave him alone for a while, come right back, and repeat it with a longer abscence each time. Does anybody have any tips besides this one? At this rate, it would take an year! IMy mom can't even leave the dog alone to go grocery shopping! And for some reason, he's so attached to me that he will follow me around everywhere and will not leave my side. He growled and barked at some alcoholics at the shelter and to my dad, so I think he was abused by the owner's husband, who may have been an alcoholic abuser. :x Other than his separation anxiety problem, he's great! He know sit, down, wait (for food and toys), and paw (kinda). He knows not to jump up on counters or tables, and he won't jump up on the dining room table while we're eating. He's a great dog, but if he still can't be left alone in two weeks, my mom wants to return him to the shelter, at which point he will probably be euthanized. :cry: She says that she wants some freedom outside of the house, and that we can't chenge our lifestyles to accomodate that of the dog's. So basically, if anybody could be generous enough to give me some good advice, I would really appreciate it. His problem needs to improve ASAP, before he gets put down. :o [/b]

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Please understand i am not condemming, but I must ask..why, being a first time dog owner, would you take on such a difficult if not impossible task??? All you have done is set yourself up for failure? Did this dog come from an individual or a shelter? Sometimes training does not help with these type of behaviors, sometimes the problem is chemical. You need to inlist the help of a professional dog psychiatrist. You can find one by contacting a local veterinary university. This type of care will cost lots of money...and there may not be any way to "fix" the problem. If you don't think you can handle it, my suggestion would be to take it back to whomever you got it from. I know thats probably not what you want to hear...and I do hope something can be done (if not training, perhaps drug therapy)....but if it can't I also don't want you to think that you failed in some way. Dogs can have mental disease like people...and sometimes you just can't fix the problem.

Good Luck

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Guest Anonymous

Have you tried putting a T-shirt you have worn in the crate with Luka? If he is not clostrophobic (sp) how about placing a towel over the front of the crate to make his den more like a cave? Some dogs need to feel "safe".

Some dogs who spend a lot of time in enclosed areas protest being left alone. Is it necessary to crate Luka? If he has his own bed or is allowed to be on yours, he may behave better. If this does not work, he may need to be placed in another home with another canine friend that you select. Possibly an elderly alone person who does not work and has dog experience. Maybe even a nursing home would take him as an "on grounds pet" for therapy purposes.

Whatever you do [b]DO NOT[/do not take him back to the shelter. If he's lucky enough to find another home from there, he will be even worse with the new owner. Sounds like he has some psychological problems in feeling "left" or "forgotten". I do not recommend drugs as the dog will not learn to be a good dog in your absence.

I have a dog that does not like being alone and another one that hates being crated because the crate is away from everyone except at night. With a towel over the front of it, he is not happy but he is quiet.

Tell Luka to "go to bed" when you leave and be sure that you release him the moment you return. Put the worn T-shirt in with him (old shoes are better as chewing on them provides comfort. Licking them releases endorfins that make him happy. Shoes are a natural relaxing chewy.) Place the towel over the crate when you leave. Other times when you are home, take out the shoe(s) and leave off the towel. He will soon realize the differences, so your mom can leave when she wants. Luka is waiting for you anyway. Lemme know how it works for you, okay?

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Thanks for your replies! Poofy, we did adopt him from a shelter. We passed several screening processes and was then selected, but no one knew the extremity of this problem. He wasn't this way at the shelter, prolly cuz he had no one to really become attached to. Although we may have to rreturn him, he will never get adopted. With every unsuccessful owner, it will get worse, and who could stay home 24/7? By the way, we would take him with us to places, but he gets very car sick. Mickey, I totally agree with you. He will willingly enter his crate when it's time for bed. however, the first night, even though I had the crate in my room with me, he would not stop barking. Even now, he has to be right next to my bed. We are moving him away farther nightly, and we are at about four feet now. The previous owner slep with him in her bed, but I heard that this only strenghthens the bond between dog and human, making it harder for the dog while separation. he is becoming a lot more mischievous and playful, so I think he's getting used to us. He will wander off from my side now, which is an improvement. He's fine when I'm at school and when he's with my mom, but when he was alone with my dad, he soiled the house. He was prolly nervous cuz of his "alcoholic man" trauma. But I guess he didn't barn or anything. The nursing home is a good idea. I would never use drugs on him, because there has to be some hidden problem with it that would throw of his chemical balance, like all drugs do. Our training is progressing from ten seconds the first day, to 30, to 45 yesterday. he must have had a very traumatic experience about being left alone in his past. And to think, that this happened just during his first year in life :( . We wouldn't mind leaving him alone, except for the fact that he may break his teeth or get injured in some other way!!! :cry:

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Try allowing him to get used to the crate with you there as well as the other things you are already doing. (Keep up the work and remanin consistant) Both Kavik and Zaphod would fuss when we first started crating them. We did what you are doing - leaving them in the crate for longer and longer periods starting with very short periods. We also made sure that we let them out only when they were quiet even if this meant standing by the crate so we could open the door in that split second they were quiet. We also would sometimes put the crate in the living room while we were watching tv and put the dog in for a few minutes. With Zaphod the cage had to be no more than 2 cm from us but it does allow them to get used to the crate without fear of being left. Kavik and Zaphod will go into their crate to nap all on their own now and willing go to the crate when we say crate - granted it took Kavik nearly a year and Zaphod may just be following Kavik but its still improvement. Good luck.

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You said

"Whatever you do [b]DO NOT[/do not take him back to the shelter. If he's lucky enough to find another home from there, he will be even worse with the new owner. Sounds like he has some psychological problems in feeling "left" or "forgotten". I do not recommend drugs as the dog will not learn to be a good dog in your absence. "


When I mentioned drugs, I did not recommend as the choice of treatment. I am sorry, but there are some dogs that have chemical embalances that make them like this. Dogs that mutilate themselves and go into sever distress are usually *far* beyond NORMAL training methods. This situation needs a professional, not a T-shirt, and home course training methods. He DEFINATELY has psychological problems...which is why he needs help. Drugs will not "keep him" from learning how to "be good"..so to speak...they will however calm the anxiety so that the dog will have a chance to REALIZE that the world is not comming to an end when their person leaves. A dog psychiatrist will be the best choice...they will be able to combine training and medication to get a grip on the situation.
Taking this dog back to the shelter is THE ONLY OPTION this person should even consider if they are NOT going to be able to finacially care for this dog and get it the help it needs. Giving it away would be totally irresponsible or trying to live with this behavior is only self destructive. Eventually you would begin to hate the dog because of the problems and destruction it *will* cause. Serious, professional help should be the first choice.
When severe enough, this type of anxiety can be a serious problem...dogs will do what ever they can to get to their people, out of a crate, etc, this includes going through windows, steel doors, impailing themselves on broken crate wire, chewing off their limbs and tails, pulling out their hair, barking themselves into unconsciousness etc...and in my experience, it DOES NOT get better only WORSE with age...unless properly treated...

Please contact an expert in this field so that you can get the advise that you need and a treatment protocol that would be best for the dog.

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Try to find something that really gets him tired... and use that to get him really tired before you have to crate him. That way he'll be tired, and will sleep/relax for at least a while after he's crated. It might mean you have to get up an hour early to go run with him, or eat breakfast as you throw tennis balls through the hallway, but if it helps to keep him quiet/content, it'll be worth it :lol: . Also, try crating him for short times (they may at first need to be very short) throughout the day while you're home. You need the crate as "nice" and "fun" to him as being out with you. You can do this several ways (or a combination of any of them)...
1) Get a safe toy that he [b]really[/b] likes... that will be his "crate toy". He only gets it when he's in the crate. When you want him to go in, show him the toy, say in, and when he goes in, give him the toy and shut the door.
2) Feed him in the crate. Put him in there a few minutes before he gets fed, and when he's quiet, give him his food. He'll learn to associate the crate with food, and will get to be pretty eager to get in there.
3)You "take over" his crate... put some of his "favorite things" in there, and shut the door. Then you get in the crate, sit down, and watch tv or read, or whatever you want, but he's not allowed in (door closed). This is best done when you are the only one home, so he can't follow anyone else. He should start to show some interest in the crate, because "if you think it's great, it must be". (I've never actually tried this one, only heard of it.)
You can do both 1 & 2 in one toy... just fill a Kong with tasty food he'd never get otherwise, and give it to him only when he's in the crate. You can also try using "tie-downs" when you're home, secure a 6ft leash somewhere where he can't get tangled, and won't be in the way, but is still "in the center of things". Put him on it for a few minutes (5-10 at first) a few times a day. He won't be able to follow you, but won't be as "confined". It's best to do this while you're walking through the house doing things, that way you can check on him often. Let him have his crate toy/treat/food while he's there, and when you walk by, praise if he's paying attention to it or otherwise occupying himself, ignore if he's whining for you, or "pouting" because he can't follow you.
I can't guarantee any of this will work, but it's worth trying. You also might want to check into getting him into "doggy daycare", or maybe getting him into adog playgroup so that he can build some confidence. There's also a chance that no training,etc will "fix" his problem, and in that case, meds might help.

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Those are great advice everyone! Thanks! Gooeydog, have you had a dog with separation anxiety before, because it sounds like you know quite about the problem. Poofy, do you have a dog with separation anxiety. Your reply was quite intimidating, about all the destruction he could do and how he prolly won't get better. Although we really are concerned with his issue, we don't want to keep piling up the cons about it, and we definitely don't want to add on to the ideas of why we should return him to the shelter. We're trying to look in to the possibilities of trying to get him out of the behavior, and thinking about the worst is a good warning, but worrying about it won't help. I'd like to hold on to even the slightest chance that he has. We're going to the vet's for advice on motion sickness, valium, doggie daycare, training sessions, a therapist, or a behaviorist. Although this problem could be related to his personality, no dog is born with such bad separation anxiety. The people had to have something to contribute to it, not to mention that he may have been abused by an alcoholic man! You don't understand how sweet this dog is. I can't explain it. It may be easy for other people to say to return him to th shelter, even if he gets put down, but I've actually lived with this dog for four days now, and I've known him since December. Plus, how can you give up a dog that trusts you and follows you around everywhere? Does anybody know whether his problem is more of a personality thing, or his past trauma? And does anybody know whether valium is something a dog needs to be on constantly for the rest of his life, or just when he's alone, or what? :-?

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By the way, it's me again, but do you think that it was our fault for bringing home a dog with such separation anxiety as first time dog owners? I think it's a lot better than getting an untrained dog that's all over the place, but the first thing a couple of people said was "Why did you get a dog like that if you have no experience with dogs?!" Having not owning a dog definitely doesn't mean that I don't have experience with them. I've seriously been working with dogs for the past 1.5 years at a shelter. It makes me feel as though adopting Luka (saving Luka from euthanasia) was a bad choice. I need some cheering up. :cry: Plus, how can anyone guarantee that he won't be a good dog for first time owners? All it takes is time, patience, and support, right?
I'll try to put some pics of him up soon, as soon as I learn how to on this site. Somebody help me!!! :o I'm such a computer klutz.

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You asked:
"By the way, it's me again, but do you think that it was our fault for bringing home a dog with such separation anxiety as first time dog owners? "

No, it is not your "fault" per say. This was the "fault" of the animal shelter. You took the dog out of ignorance....you took them for what they said and did not quesiton it. I have found, more times then not, that shelters can be so deperate to get dogs new homes, they "accidently" sugar coat some problems. Also...when I say "ignorance" I do not say that in a bad way...you simply didn't know better.

You said: "I think it's a lot better than getting an untrained dog that's all over the place, but the first thing a couple of people said was "Why did you get a dog like that if you have no experience with dogs?!" Having not owning a dog definitely doesn't mean that I don't have experience with them. "

Well...what you have is more difficult then an untrained dog. An untrained dog can be trained...its just "ignorant" ;) a dog with a severe behavior disorder cannot always be helped. It would be kinda like adopting a dog with a medical problem, like epilepsy or diabetes....you will have a long bumpy road, even if you can get it undercontrol.


You said:
"Having not owning a dog definitely doesn't mean that I don't have experience with them. I've seriously been working with dogs for the past 1.5 years at a shelter."

Working with dogs, even living with dogs, teaches you someting...BUT its not the same. When I say experienced, I mean some one who has some sort of back gorund in behavior problems and an understanding of dog behavior and modification of behavior. and yes...sometimes that experience comes from a situation like yours.


You said "It makes me feel as though adopting Luka (saving Luka from euthanasia) was a bad choice. I need some cheering up. Plus, how can anyone guarantee that he won't be a good dog for first time owners? All it takes is time, patience, and support, right? "

No it was not a "bad choice." Trying and making an effort is NEVER a bad choice. And there is no guarantee that, with proper help, he won't become a good dog, but the problem will never completely go away. I am not going to lie to you, if the worlds problems could be fixed with time, patience and support, then there would be no homeless dogs or dogs who have behavior problems. I am not trying to pee in your cheerios...but I am also being realistic and I don't want to make you think that tomarrow everything will be a-ok. Thats why you have to decide...are you ready for the job? Are you ready to try your best? And are you ready to possibly fail? Failure does not mean you are less or that the dog did not deserve another chance...it simply means you are only human and only capable of human things.
I will say this...i think that if you can get professional help, you will make a difference in this dog...how much? I can't say...will your family put up with the set backs? I have no idea....but I think if you can do it...the rewards might be worth it all.

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[quote name='Luka-pop']We're going to the vet's for advice on motion sickness, valium, doggie daycare, training sessions, a therapist, or a behaviorist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Plus, how can you give up a dog that trusts you and follows you around everywhere? Does anybody know whether his problem is more of a personality thing, or his past trauma? And does anybody know whether valium is something a dog needs to be on constantly for the rest of his life, or just when he's alone, or what? :-?[/quote]
The vet is a good place to start, but remember that they "specialize" in medicine, not necessarily behavior. Of course some are [i]extremely[/i] knowledgeable about dog behavior/nutrition/whatever, but others may not know (not saying not to believe the vet, but at the same time, follow what [i]you[/i] think too). It might be a good idea to also contact a behaviorist, and see about just getting him evaluated. Then you can decide where to go from there.
The following is probably because he's still feeling pretty insecure right now, or he could just naturally lack in confidence. Using the "tie-downs" I mentioned above should help a little with that, because he'll start to realize that he [i]can[/i] do his "own thing" while you're busy. His problem could be caused by just his upbringing, or just his "natural attitude", or a combination of both, you may never know.

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Luka-pop - for info on posting pics, go to the Pictures form, then click on "Sticky: Tutorial from Sasha" Actually...here's a link to it to make it easier [url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=1643[/url]
If you have further questions about how to post a pic, I'll talk to you tomorrow or email you!

Also, the people here (although some might sound a little negative), are only trying to give you their honest opinion on what they think would be best to do with Luka based on the info you gave them. I don't think that they mean it would be better for you to just flat out ditch him back at the shelter - but they all have varied opinions on dealing with this; some think drugs would be best, others recommend different training methods, and others recommend professional help.
From what I've gathered (from different sites and people's opinions), I think that you should keep working with him on slowly leaving for longer and longer time periods possibly combined with valium or some other drug to keep him calmer during training. Also, valium is not a permanent thing, you only use it while Luka is being trained to make it easier for him to deal with the stress of you being gone. I think that you'll have a much better idea of how you're going to deal with this (medication wise) after you talk over the pro's and cons of different medications with the vet. A professional trainer might eventually be needed if Luka doesn't improve...I agree with gooeydog - at least a consultation would be a good idea, so that at least you might have a better idea of what you're dealing with, if you can even afford a behaviorist, and how likely it is a behaviorist can actually help Luka. It might actually be a better idea to contact one or several behaviorists before you decide whether or not to use drugs.

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luka....ok. rather than condemning you for taking on such a challenge, i'm going to say thank you for getting another dog out of a shelter. i am currently dealing with being unable to adopt a dog i feel really needs someone. you should go to cheetah's previous post about doggy valium. yes, it is a drastic move, but sometimes its necessary. i do believe that seeing a dog therapist is the best course of action. i've done it myself, and had great results, as the therapist was able to help me in planning several training routines and interventions to curb my old shepherd's separation anxiety. however, as with MANY severe behavioral problems that are psychological in nature, sometimes behavior therapy cannot have the desired effect until you can control the big issues with medicines. i know this sounds backwards, but i'm speaking from an extensive background in psychology....i'm getting my specialist degree this year, which is 33 hours beyond a masters degree, so NO, i'm not just blowing :lol: if your dog has a severe anxiety issue, medication may be necessary to calm her down enough to be able to PAY ATTENTION to the behavior modifications you are trying to teach. If her mind is going a million, she won't be able to focus on the new routines, behavior modifications, and interventions you are trying to teach her. it's just like someone with severe depression. you have to get them regulated with medication before they can focus on therapy. so while therapy IS most important, you don't want to discount medications all together. so, welcome to the forum, keep us posted, keep working with her, and don't get discouraged!!

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Luka-pop-
i don't know much about dog behavior, have one now and thats why i am here, but in a time where most people with pets, people on my Air Force base, don't even bother to give their dogs the basic neccesities, you seem to be doing all you can to make this work. I aplaude your hard work and don't think your sweet heart of a dog could have found a better home. I can't give you advise but if you ever need a verbal high five, you can get one here. Keep trying, it only takes thirty seconds to fall in love with an animal and the love never stops growing. Good luck.

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My sister adopted a Coonhound/Lab mix that turned out to have severe separation anxiety. It's definitely not an easy thing to deal with. There are a few things that she tried:

1. There is a new medication on the market that your vet can prescribe to help curb this behavior. Some people don't like to resort to medication for behavioral problems but this can be such a difficult problem to overcome that you may want to consider it.

2. Leaving your t-shirt (or something) with your scent on it in the dog's crate with them might help them feel more secure when you're not there.

3. Leaving a radio on playing CLASSICAL MUSIC has been proven to have a calming effect on dogs! It sounds weird but I just read an articla on this in a magazine.

Ultimately what my sister ended up doing is getting a second dog to keep Augie company. This had the most positive effect on his separation behavior. Now he has a friend to keep him company. I'm not really recommending that you get a second dog because I can't guarantee that it would work with your dog and obviously it's a big responsibilty that shouldn't be done on a whim. Just sharing what worked for her.

Good luck with your dog! Oh yeah and I agree with many of the others that responded. Taking him back to the shelter would be awful for him!

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Thanks for everthing everybody! And definitely thanks for cheering me up. It deffo helped after a stressful and depressing week at school. Hey mcobbin, that sux for being unable to adopt a dog that needds you. What's up with the dog and situation? I really felt like I needed to give Luka a home, because the longer a dog stays at a shelter, the more unpleasant they become, most likely cuz of all the stress on them. That's how a lot of the dogs I REALLY became attached to got put down - Joplin, Nick, Dennis, Fletcher... just to name a few, just in about 10 mos! It really sux, cuz it's not their fault. Hey Poofy, I don't think that this was entirely the shelter or our fault. I have pretty good hunch (even though I'm not positive), that the surrendering owners didn't tell the whole truth about Luka. They didn't mention why he dislikes alcoholic men, whether this dog was a first for them, whether the dog was born with severe SA, or if they even did anything about the SA. This dog was a very shallow historical record. Oh, and I'm pretty sure they said that they adopted Luka from a shelter at the age of 4 mos, so who knows where this dog was before then? Times like this, I really wish there was a time machine to go back into time... to Luka's puppyhood... :-? Oh, and I deffo don't think that he's more difficult than un untrained puppy. Maybe not easier, but definitely not more difficult. It just takes time and patience, and a lot of advice. *(Thanks y'all)* :D By the way Poofy, what kind of dog do you own? I can't really see in the picture (It's not your fault, I just have pretty bad eyes). Hey Meehs, so did your sister's dog get better with the SA? Thanks again for all your replies, and I'd definitely appreciate more! :P

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Guest Anonymous

My sister's dog seemed to improve a little bit when the vet perscribed the medication that I mentioned but he was still pretty bad. She lost a lot of furniture, shoes, misc. knick-knacks, etc. due to his chewing them up when she left the house. She couldn't kennel him because he would hurt himself trying to get out of the kennel (he actually wore permanent grooves into his canines trying to chew his way out of a heavy-duty wire crate)! She just had to try to puppy-proof the house as best she could before she left.

He really seems to have improved since she got her second dog because there's always someone home with him now (the other dog). The second dog does get kenneled when she leaves but they play so much when they're out together (when she's home) that when she leaves, I think he's too tired to be anxious! So overall he has improved, yes!

I think you'll find that over time, as your new dog becomes used to your routine and starts to become more comfortable, he might start to improve on his own too.

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A new dog for a playmate would be great :P , except I don't think my family would be willing to get another dog, a week after our first-ever dog. Maybe doggie daycare or a friend's dog would help. That's the exact problem I have! I don't wanna crate him cuz he'll prolly commit suicide or something! :o That's how bad he is. Would bitter stray work on the crate bars maybe? We have a pretty big furnished basement we use as a playroom, where we could dog proof and keep him there, if worse comes to worst. The only problem with that, is that we don't train him in there, so it would be a totally new surrounding that he knows that that isnt where everybody hangs out. I'm going to try to tire him out with execise before we leave, throw a kong and my socks and lots of toys in his crate, spray the crate bars with bitter spray, and turn on some classical music (and put him on valium if the vet recommends it) :) Do you think that would be the best solution for him right now? I mean, he has gotten better, from 10 seconds, to 30, to 45, to 60 minutes right now, but he's far from the time it takes my mom to do the grocery shopping. We can't stay home all the time, so besides the training, he's going to have to learn from experience that we're not gonna abandon him. Some people may think that this is irresponsible as a pet owner, but what would you do? At least I saved him from euthanasia in the nick of time. :cry:

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Anxiety caused by abuse is not uncommon in a dog. Have you taken him
to a vet, or a dog specialist? There are certain herbal medications you can
get for anxiety problems. Kinda like doggie-downers, without drugs.
You will still have to continue the leave-the-room-and-return training
however. That's the only thing that will eventually break the cycle, but
in the meantime the herbals can help keep him calmer while you are training him. Wherever you take him, make sure you tell them his prior
experiences and your suspicions of what has been done to him.

Hope that helps!

Katy

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It's me again.

I forgot to add that another good way to handle this would be to have him
professionally trained, by a dog school that doesnt use negative punishment to train. I know some people say when they get older they cant be trained, but tha's definitely NOT TRUE. It takes alittle longer, yes, but a dog that's been trained and feels like it's under control is more relaxed. Obedience training would be a good step towards relaxing his
anxiety. Also, as he is being trained, take him out regulalry and practice the training. Make him sit on command (the first time), come, heel
and then praise him lavishly when he succeeds. This will make him
feel useful, and has the additonal benefit of tiring him out so he rests more easily.

Good luck - It's hard to raise a rescue - I have two of them. But with
time and patience they can be the best of dogs.

Katy

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