wildbunch Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 The mantle is well received here in the U.S. but most find Merles to be a defect. Again thick head is on Alot of people in the U.S. think that a Merle dane is not a dane but a basically a reject. I think I'll stop here but all in all she is a beauty no I won't show her but she is a wonderful companion. The whole point to this was that I am frustrated that people are willing to accept a Merle in alot of other breeds but not the dane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Here is an interesting website of Danes. [url]http://www.greatdanes.net/colors.htm[/url] [url]http://home.flash.net/~dby/chlinx.htm[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Someone said you have to breed a merle to get merle. Not true. Merle can result from Harl/harl, black/harl and Mantle/harl also. I have never bred a merle or saw one bred (my friend and I bred show dogs) but have seen many of them born to these color parents. Also, harl is a pattern, not a color. That is to say that it is a pattern with a white base and another color patches. You can have brindle, blue, and fawn patches as well as black. These are very undesirable and are thought to be assosiated with health risks (again, I think due to poor breeding practises). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous']Someone said you have to breed a merle to get merle. Not true. Merle can result from Harl/harl, black/harl and Mantle/harl also. I have never bred a merle or saw one bred (my friend and I bred show dogs) but have seen many of them born to these color parents. Also, harl is a pattern, not a color. That is to say that it is a pattern with a white base and another color patches. You can have brindle, blue, and fawn patches as well as black. These are very undesirable and are thought to be assosiated with health risks (again, I think due to poor breeding practises).[/quote] This is from a genetics site: [i][b]Merle is a part of the pattern of ragged black spots seen in the harlequin Great Dane. [/b]There appears to be an additional gene which removes the dilute pigment, leaving the "blue" area clear white. The fact that harlequins continue to produce merles argues that animals pure for this proposed extra factor may not exist, and one possibility is that a homozygote for this whitening factor is an embryonic lethal. Interestingly, there are recent reports of Shelties born with a harlequin pattern, but in this case the "blue" area actually develops color with time, winding up a light silvery blue. These dogs appear to have larger than normal black areas, at the extreme being so-called cryptic merles, that is, no blue is visible without an extensive search. Other shelties born harlequin or "domino" retain the white body color. Although Danes are usually solid color, the harlequin color description includes a preference for a white neck and front. Since the black patching is as apt to be on neck and front as anywhere else, this requires incorporation of a gene for white spotting (probably irish spotting, si si). Given that SS double merles seem to fare better than their si si counterparts, I would expect that double merles from harlequin Danes with patched fronts and necks might be healthier than from those that fit the standard better. The harlequin description also faults black hairs in the white area. The harlequin - silver blue pattern in Shelties could be an extreme case of black hairs in the white area. Both harlequins and the silver-blue merle Shelties have occasional patches of gray (merle?) as well as black, though this is not considered desirable.[/i] Therefore; in order to have a merle or a broken pattern --- one parent MUST be dominant for that gene. Two solid colored dogs can not produce a merle, or broken patterned color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadyLady Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Hobbit got a question as you know my breed is predominately merle coloring and about 6months ago I aquired a black and white female who is from a red merle father and a blue merle mother. The mother is from a blue merle to blue merle mating and the father is from a red merle to solid red mating. How did two pups in this litter end up solid here is a photo [img]http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/koolie/kooliedogs/franc.jpg[/img] :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous']Someone said you have to breed a merle to get merle. Not true. Merle can result from Harl/harl, black/harl and Mantle/harl also. I have never bred a merle or saw one bred (my friend and I bred show dogs) but have seen many of them born to these color parents. Also, harl is a pattern, not a color. That is to say that it is a pattern with a white base and another color patches. You can have brindle, blue, and fawn patches as well as black. These are very undesirable and are thought to be assosiated with health risks (again, I think due to poor breeding practises).[/quote] I said that you can breed boston to boston and get boston(aka mantle) Harlie may be the pattern, but, it is called a colour(check breed standards) That is the same as saying brindle is a pattern not a colour :wink: In the uk blue harlies are allowed in the harlie standard, though i think it is the only country that they are :lol: Although you do not see many in the show ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 [quote name='working koolie']Hobbit got a question as you know my breed is predominately merle coloring and about 6months ago I aquired a black and white female who is from a red merle father and a blue merle mother. The mother is from a blue merle to blue merle mating and the father is from a red merle to solid red mating. How did two pups in this litter end up solid here is a photo [img]http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/koolie/kooliedogs/franc.jpg[/img] :roll:[/quote] Koolie: Are you sure the sire is her sire (and not another dog)? Are you sure she isn't a phantom/cryptic merle? How many pups in the litter were lethal (blind, deaf, or other health problems)? How much white does the father, mother and thier pups have on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Koolie -- she reminds me of a NcNabb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadyLady Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Hobbit sire was definately not another dog each time he breeds these two there are one or two solids .Here is a picture of the pups except for mine [img]http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/koolie/frankiepups.jpg[/img] The one on the far right was the lightest one and he had one blue eye ,the black and white one has more white than my little bitch . The father had small white star covering chest , mother has white chest and thin blaze only , with two blue eyes .This guy is the only person on record having breed a full litter of blue merles (7 of them) and he is very anti white I have pictures of parents but Im having trouble posting them so Ill email them to you . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 [quote name='working koolie']Hobbit sire was definately not another dog each time he breeds these two there are one or two solids .Here is a picture of the pups except for mine [img]http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/koolie/frankiepups.jpg[/img] The one on the far right was the lightest one and he had one blue eye ,the black and white one has more white than my little bitch . The father had small white star covering chest , mother has white chest and thin blaze only , with two blue eyes .This guy is the only person on record having breed a full litter of blue merles (7 of them) and he is very anti white I have pictures of parents but Im having trouble posting them so Ill email them to you .[/quote] Koolie, I answered you by email before I looked at the pictures. My answer would have been the same, anyway. Personally, he is playing with fire (genetics hell) by breeding merle to merle. He has been lucky, I hope for the dogs sake that HIS luck holds out. At least the sire and dam aren't white factored. He could still achieve the same goal (I'm assuming he wants merles) by breeding merle to a solid and not have to contend with the possibility of incorporating deaf, blindness into his bloodlines. My opinion only --- because it's been my findings that people are going to do what they want to anyway regardless of what anyone else says. The lightest colored one on the end --- did he have his eyes checked? If not, he definately should before he's bred to anything and should definately NOT be bred to another merle. Again, my opinion. Not meant to offend just cringing at the fact that someone would actually throw caution to the wind with abviously no respect for genetics and breed this away. Maybe his luck is way better than the average person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 ...and an all merle litter is possible even with the parents of your bitch. Also, a double merle bred to a black will produce all merles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted November 25, 2002 Author Share Posted November 25, 2002 Koolie... she is very pretty! :D Hobbit- I am so confused by genetics and even more now. Please don't try and explain it to me... cos I will never get it... :drinking: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 :o Okay, ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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