ACD's

[usmcbyrd]

my wife and i have 2 australian cattle dogs, one red and one blue. we have been looking at all of their history and i am curious about the two colors. it always seems to me that the blue ones seem thicker than the red ones. if this is true then wouldnt that make them different breeds? i know absolutely nothing about breeding, but it kind of makes sense to me. if someone could give me some opinion about this i would appreciate it.

thanks

[Guest Anonymous]

I have an australian shepherd and have noticed this as well... I have also been told that blue merels have thicker coats... don't know if this is true, but Hazel's dad had a pretty impressive coat, and he was a black tri... of course her mom had just blown her coat, but the other three females were all blues and thier coats were still not as full as Toby's... they were younger... so I don't know. Hazel also has a heavier build then her mother, with feet not so petit.
It could also be the breeder. I don't know about cattle dogs, but aussies come in two types, show standard and working standard. Shows are bigger with heavier coats, while working dogs are smaller, more active, with a shorter curly coat...

[Aroura]

They are the same breed, but have different backgrounds. They can be bred together and still create red or blue cattle dogs, but in their history the red cattle dogs had more dingo bred into them, so its like they are kindof a different breed but not, if you get what I mean.
Red cattle dogs are more likely to go crazy too, probably due to the higher rate of dingo in them.

[bk_blue]

The blue merles are pretty crazy too! :lol:
[url]http://www.cattledog.com/misc/history.html[/url]
A fantastic ACD site which offers a good history of the dog.
I have a book titled "The Complete History of Australian Dogs" by Angela Sanderson (avail. at Amazon!) which is also good. The info this book has reports that the ACD, both red and blue, were derived from the same crossing, although breeders bred deliberately for the different colours and so a difference in coat type is entirely feasible, if you're only mating blue with blue and red with red etc.
In the Australian standard of 1963 it does not have a different description of coat type for either colour. But that could be outdated, and the dogs in Australia are slightly different from the US ACDs.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura']They are the same breed, but have different backgrounds. They can be bred together and still create red or blue cattle dogs, but in their history the red cattle dogs had more dingo bred into them, so its like they are kindof a different breed but not, if you get what I mean.
Red cattle dogs are more likely to go crazy too, probably due to the higher rate of dingo in them.[/quote]


This is totally not true about the "reds more likely to go crazy". I'm not being hateful to you, but this aggravates me. It's comments like this that is just so uncalled for.

I have raised and loved the ACD for about 25 years. I have had many of them as we use them on a working ranch. I have been around them, worked them, trained them, loved them. I know their personality, their attitude, their quirks, their likes and dislikes. For you to make this comment really hurts my heart. They are very good dogs. I am not an advocate at a pet family owning this breed of dog. Especially if they don't know the breed.

The red and blue are not different breeds. They have the same genetics, lineage and background as the blue. Red and blue are simply COLORS, not a different breed.

As to the difference in coat quality --- comes from unselective breeding, mutation in the gene that codes for coat, inbreeding/linebreeding, not being a fullblood etc....

The body style, again, comes from genetics, bloodlines, and the selectiveness of the breeder.

I veiwed the website and there still is a hugh controversary as to if there is actually any bull terrier in the breed. The bull terrier controversary was started years ago when someone mentioned that the Heeler looked like a Pit Bull ---- this comment stuck and people starting believing it. Knowing the characteristics of the Pit Bull and the ACD, it is unlikely, in my opinion and several others, that the ACD's carry any of the Pit Bull genetics. Or any of the Bull Terrier characteristics, for the matter.

People are going to have their owns views and think what they want too. I have been around this breed my entire life and know them for what they really are ---- good dogs and a good breed that is not for everyone, especially people who live in town, in an apartment, or know nothing about the breed.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='usmcbyrd']my wife and i have 2 australian cattle dogs, one red and one blue. we have been looking at all of their history and i am curious about the two colors. it always seems to me that the blue ones seem thicker than the red ones. if this is true then wouldnt that make them different breeds? i know absolutely nothing about breeding, but it kind of makes sense to me. if someone could give me some opinion about this i would appreciate it.

thanks[/quote]


Are they registered by any chance? I would be interested in knowing who their breeders were.

Red and blue are simply colors of the Australian Cattle Dogs, not different breeds. This has been a misnomer for so long. Red and blue are just colors, like the black, yellow and chocolate Labs. The red and blue are dictated by genetics and the gene code that is carried by that the dog. Saying that a red colored Heeler has more Dingo is not true, either. It just means that the gene coded for red instead of blue (and one or both are carriers of the red gene or are the color of red).

The body style differences are in the way some people breed. Genetics dictate the phenotype (look) as well as the genotype (genes) of the animal. Body style has nothing to do with whether they are red or blue. We have some blues that are more petite than the reds and vice versa --- it all has to do with the way they are bred.

I have been around this breed for a long time. I've seen good bred ones, poorly bred ones, ones that were supposed to be fullblood -- but were not.

Red and blue are the same breed, just different colors. To say that they are different breeds is like saying that the black, yellow and chocolate Labs are all 3 different breeds.

The way they look or their phenotype all depends on how they are bred, how selectively or unselectively they are bred, how much they are in-bred or line bred, etc...

Please feel free to email me if you have further questions, I'd love to help you. Email me at: [email][email protected][/email]

[Aroura]

[quote name='Hobbit']I am not an advocate at a pet family owning this breed of dog.[/quote]

Neither am I, I didn't mean that they are crazy dogs, but from all the cattle dogs I've met, and beleive me, there are ALOT around here, the red ones seem to be a little more on edge. They are working dogs and do not adjust well to being kept in a yard without much excercise, yet from my experience the Blue ones seem to adjust better than the red ones.
As it was mentioned earlier, the Australian ACDs are much different from those overseas, which may be why our experiences are different.
Sorry if I offended you

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura'][quote name='Hobbit']I am not an advocate at a pet family owning this breed of dog.[/quote]

Neither am I, I didn't mean that they are crazy dogs, but from all the cattle dogs I've met, and beleive me, there are ALOT around here, the red ones seem to be a little more on edge. They are working dogs and do not adjust well to being kept in a yard without much excercise, yet from my experience the Blue ones seem to adjust better than the red ones.
As it was mentioned earlier, the Australian ACDs are much different from those overseas, which may be why our experiences are different.
Sorry if I offended you[/quote]


No offense taken.

I have an imported (from Australia) red ACD. I have only had him a few weeks, so far I can't tell any difference between him and the states (US) borned ACD's. He is my only import, so I can't really pass any judgements or make any real comparisons.

You are so very right about an ACD that has been kept in a "yard" being a little (ALOT) on edge. These rank right up there with kenneled dogs (ones that are kenneled all the time).

We have more ACD's that are red than blue. Luckily, we have not had a big difference in red -vs- blue as far as the personalities (on edge) go. Everyone has their place and job to do according to experience and how well they do a job. So far.....it works.

[bk_blue]

I do remember reading somewhere on an ACD site that US and Aussie ACDs had slight physical differences, but I don't know how true that is.
It's also said that it's hard to tell if you have a purebred ACD?(also on the cattledog.com site) I have no idea how much heeler Blitz has in him, he's a typical mutt. He's a lot bigger than an ACD with no undercoat, but has the Bentley mark, the blue merle on his underside, and the herding and ankle biting.
How could anyone think a heeler looked like a Pit? Whoever thought that needs to get glasses methinks. Maybe they saw a heeler-pit X?

[ShadyLady]

Hi Guys,
I have a breed that produces 80% merles (red and blue) and I use them for working and have found no difference in the personalities of either I personally think that it would be similar to say that blondes are more silly or brunettes are smarter (ha ha ) .I certainly agree that working dogs should only be kept in backyards with owners responsible enough to understand their dogs needs (mental and physical) Oh and we do have solid colours in our breed as well :lol:

[bk_blue]

This sounds a bit dumb Koolie, but by "solid" do you mean solid black or red or something? I've seen kind of solid red heelers (or heeler crosses), is that right or do you mean something else? :oops:
I sometimes feel bad that Bk doesn't have a whole farm and a herd of cattle to keep him amused! I do agree that they are born to work, that is what they enjoy and are bred to do, and like any dog, you shouldn't get a heeler if you're not prepared to meet its needs. That's why I am taking him to obedience, so he can get his bits of paper and do competitive agility! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='working koolie']Hi Guys,
I have a breed that produces 80% merles (red and blue) and I use them for working and have found no difference in the personalities of either I personally think that it would be similar to say that blondes are more silly or brunettes are smarter (ha ha ) .I certainly agree that working dogs should only be kept in backyards with owners responsible enough to understand their dogs needs (mental and physical) Oh and we do have solid colours in our breed as well :lol:[/quote]


Koolie:
When you say "a breed that produces 80% merles" are you talking merle like the coloration of an Aussie?

[Guest Anonymous]

Hey Koolie, do you have a website? Can I email you personally about the Australian Koolie/German Koolie??

Thanks!

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a cattledog that is 4 years old. Her coloring is still changing. She is half red and half blue. Many people, not dog people, think she is a german shepherd puppy because of her coloring. Both parents were blue. Can someone tell me why she is half and half. I have seen a couple others with the same coloring. My acd does come from working stock and is not registered. Her breeder recently imported an acd from Australia.

I don't think that you can say one color is more crazy than the other. Many times it all depends on the owner. My acd plays flyball and gets a lot of exercise and seems quite content most of the time.

I have seen a few cattledogs in flyball and they are all shaped and look different for the most part. I think it all depends on the breeding. I have a neighbor who has a cattledog that was bred to be short, and boy is she. She does look a little goofy and she does look like she has terrier in her so I can see why people may say that there is terrier in there somewhere but I am not sure whether I believe it or not. And this dog is registered.

Just like with many other breeds you have the working dog look and the show dog look. I think that may be where the answer lies.

Kim

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Foster']I have a cattledog that is 4 years old. Her coloring is still changing. She is half red and half blue. Many people, not dog people, think she is a german shepherd puppy because of her coloring. Both parents were blue. Can someone tell me why she is half and half. I have seen a couple others with the same coloring. My acd does come from working stock and is not registered. Her breeder recently imported an acd from Australia.

I don't think that you can say one color is more crazy than the other. Many times it all depends on the owner. My acd plays flyball and gets a lot of exercise and seems quite content most of the time.

I have seen a few cattledogs in flyball and they are all shaped and look different for the most part. I think it all depends on the breeding. I have a neighbor who has a cattledog that was bred to be short, and boy is she. She does look a little goofy and she does look like she has terrier in her so I can see why people may say that there is terrier in there somewhere but I am not sure whether I believe it or not. And this dog is registered.

Just like with many other breeds you have the working dog look and the show dog look. I think that may be where the answer lies.

Kim[/quote]




Hello Kim:
Your dog isn't half red, half blue (there is no such thing). Without seeing a picture -- I can assume since both of her parents are blue, that she is actually blue with what is called "creeping" tan.

I have seen two blue parents that had a red parent (each), produce a red pup.

I have seen two red parents that had a blue parent (each), produce a blue pup. The blue was a light blue and a really nice color (rich blue with rich tan, really bright and pretty). This blue (from two red parents) should not be bred back to a red because sometimes there is a possibility of producing a pup that is void of color (not an albino). Meaning, the pup is borned white like it should be, but the hair does not color out at about 3 wks of age (the skin will have spots).

The blue heeler [b]MUST[/b] have the tan (sometimes called rust, light brown) highlights or they are not fullblood. The tan on the chest, jaw, insides of the legs come from the black and tan Kelpie (which is a breed responsible for the creation of the Heeler). Since this is a dominant coloration, genetic wise, the blues must have this coloration or they are crossed with something else.

Hopefully, even though she isn't registered that she came from a reputable breeder. Lots of herding people never register their dogs, because they are not concerned with the papers --- just if the dog can work.

I am an absolute pedigree/genetics/selective breeding freak. I want it all. I want good solid genetics, squeaky clean health, natural herdibility, intelligence, correctness, and want to know generations back to Moses (okay, maybe not that far, but pretty far back).

If you can or want to, I'd love to see a picture of your heeler. Please email to: [email][email protected][/email]

[deepseasnake]

Hobbit, if you could please go to "GSP/red Doberman mix" thread under the Everything about dogs forum, there are some girls, velcroing their Aussies to the ceiling, for "training" :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Actually Foster has more than just a creeping red. Her face is red, her all 4 legs are red up to the hips and withers, and her stomach is red/white/cream...The only part of her that is blue is her back. She is 100% per acd and yes she comes from a reputable breeder that works his dogs on cattle...I know that she is not technically half and half but that is the way her colors came out.

Go to [url]www.flyball-fbi.com[/url] and go to the profile page...there is a picture of Foster plus her video when she first started training. You can see that she has more than just a creeping red. The video of course does not really show all the red she has now. She hardly had any red as a puppy. She became more red as she got older. And the red hair is different than the blue intexture and length.

Kim

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Foster']Actually Foster has more than just a creeping red. Her face is red, her all 4 legs are red up to the hips and withers, and her stomach is red/white/cream...The only part of her that is blue is her back. She is 100% per acd and yes she comes from a reputable breeder that works his dogs on cattle...I know that she is not technically half and half but that is the way her colors came out.

Go to [url]www.flyball-fbi.com[/url] and go to the profile page...there is a picture of Foster plus her video when she first started training. You can see that she has more than just a creeping red. The video of course does not really show all the red she has now. She hardly had any red as a puppy. She became more red as she got older. And the red hair is different than the blue intexture and length.

Kim[/quote]


Kim: I viewed Foster's video. She is a very nice looking girl. You said both of her parents are blue, correct, and they are 100% positive that the female was not accidently bred to a red? What color are her grandparents on both sides? Can I email you personally, I have some pictures I want you to see?

Was she borned snow white and then changed color at about 3 wks of age? Okay....then was she blue?

The creeping red can creep and cause a totally different color. It's a rare occurance.

Her coloration is normally caused by an incomplete dominance gene or epistasis. This coloration is normally seen when red & blue are bred together.

About 13 years ago I had a blue male (registered) with parents that were red male and blue female. He had a full black mask. The older he got the redder his face until one day --- he had a red mask instead of black, but his forehead was still black. The tan highlights creeped until he looked like your female. I have a granddaughter of his, she is now 3 yrs old and her face is doing the same thing. It's genetics and it's an anomily.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='deepseasnake']Hobbit, if you could please go to "GSP/red Doberman mix" thread under the Everything about dogs forum, there are some girls, velcroing their Aussies to the ceiling, for "training" :wink:[/quote]


LOVED the velcro idea!! Could we work some duct tape in there somewhere? And maybe some baling wire? :wink: :wink:

[corgilady]

[quote name='deepseasnake']Hobbit, if you could please go to "GSP/red Doberman mix" thread under the Everything about dogs forum, there are some girls, velcroing their Aussies to the ceiling, for "training" :wink:[/quote]

[color=red][size=6]SNAKE!!!! TELL THE TRUTH! It was your idea! [/color] [/size]

Seriously Hobbit we could use your help.....

"Just one of the girls" Corgilady, with the velcro'd Aussie

[ShadyLady]

Back again having one of those bad computer days nothing willWORK!!!! Firstly by solid I mean red black with or without white. The merle colour is very similar to an Aussie it has been suggested the koolie/geman coolie is included in their background no actual proof though but its a strong rumour in Australia . I can be reached at [email][email protected][/email] and am more than happy to talk about my breed( who isnt ) unfortunately I dont have a web site yet as Im not real crash hot with the computer I really want to put a picture of my dog when I post a reply but I got no idea!!!!!!! :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

Hobbit,

I am sending you an email.

It is cool to hear about all the genetics behind the coloring etc...Foster's parents and grandparents are blue. The breeder does not even own a red acd...so who knows. I wanted a red and my husband wanted a blue so we decided that Foster was just trying to make us happy abd became a half and half.

Kim

[Guest Anonymous]

Foster -- I emailed you the information, but in case someone else is interested:

It appears as though Foster is an anomily -- a rare color. Even though she was borned a blue, the tan started creeping, this is known as "creeping tan" and is caused by a modifier and epistatic gene. She is by no means substandard because of her color. It's just one those things that happens, genetic wise.

Here is a website that deals with the genetics of the ACD. Click on "Site Map" to view the information concerning genetics.

[url]http://www.ar.com.au/~norclark/[/url]

[usmcbyrd]

thanks a lot. i got a lot of info from all the web sites.