avaloniaboerboele Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 8) DITTO AD INFINITUM 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avaloniaboerboele Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 Sien julle? Sien julle?????? Ek het een pootjie!!! :lol: :) :D Yippeeeeeeeeeeeee :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
science_doc Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 Okay since you guys want to separate the "bad" from the "good" guests.... In the debate on animal research I was the "good" (or at least I hope you think I was fair and open minded) scientist guest :oops: I feel much more comfortable with the people on this site since you all seem to agree PETA should use their money to help animals instead of blow up labs. I have worked in places that received mothly bomb threats so I am scared.......... but I hope that nothing bad will come of me trying to ease your minds about at least some animal researchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
science_doc Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 Okay now that I have "outed" myself as an occasional guest I have to enter a very novice opinon about head halters. My rescue Lab/husky was a very hyper little dog(duhhhh), and sometimes on a leash she would suddenly take off at full speed. I had her tied up on a 15 foot lead while I was working in the garden....she spotted a rabbit and boom she took off. She was going so fast in 15 feet she snapped her buckle collar. Needless to say this was the one and only time I ever tried to tie her up with me while I was outside. I had begun basic obedience with her and all the trainers instructed me not to use a head halter with her because her unpredictable behavior on a leash could lead to a neck injury. I tried a specially fitted nylon choke collar (vollhard collar) and all she did was choke herself during our entire walk. So I relented and bought a pinch collar. This was the most amazing change in behavior I have ever seen in a dog. NO MORE pulling, lunging, runing, etc. The neck ache I had for 1.5 months finally went away and my dog quit choking herself on every walk. Made a believer out of me. *nough said* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 [quote name='science_doc']Okay now that I have "outed" myself as an occasional guest I have to enter a very novice opinon about head halters. My rescue Lab/husky was a very hyper little dog(duhhhh), and sometimes on a leash she would suddenly take off at full speed. I had her tied up on a 15 foot lead while I was working in the garden....she spotted a rabbit and boom she took off. She was going so fast in 15 feet she snapped her buckle collar. Needless to say this was the one and only time I ever tried to tie her up with me while I was outside. I had begun basic obedience with her and all the trainers instructed me not to use a head halter with her because her unpredictable behavior on a leash could lead to a neck injury. I tried a specially fitted nylon choke collar (vollhard collar) and all she did was choke herself during our entire walk. So I relented and bought a pinch collar. This was the most amazing change in behavior I have ever seen in a dog. NO MORE pulling, lunging, runing, etc. The neck ache I had for 1.5 months finally went away and my dog quit choking herself on every walk. Made a believer out of me. *nough said*[/quote] You don't use a head halter on a leash long enough to let the untrained dog get a running start and you certainly don't tie a dog out on one. No one has ever said that you cannot train a dog using pain - pain certainly works - its just that you don't need to use pain to train a dog so why do it? You get a much happier better worker without using pain control techniques. Sure your shoulder feels better but how does your dog feel? how long will you have to spend training the dog before you will not have to use the pinch collar at all? or are you just planning to use pain control for life? Too bad you have not yet run into a trainer to help you teach your dog about the leash. Too bad you have not found a trainer to teach you better training methods. I know those trainers exist in Michigan. Saying its ok to hurt your dog to train it because everybody else hurts their dogs to train them is no longer a reasonable excuse to anyone who knows better methods or to anyone who cares about their pet's well being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 [quote name='K']snip to cut a very long story a bit shorter I took one of my dogs leads with a choke chain on it the 2nd time and although she found it unpleasant she still pulled snip[/quote] Exactly! 'she still pulled' not to mention you were likely doing damage to her neck with the choke collar that she will show the results of as she ages :cry: The choke did not work - the stop/start/treats puppy training worked for you and yet here you are praising the cruel choke collar as the proper tool :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 [quote name='K']Guest I know it was a long post but please read carefully......she still pulled THE FIRST TIME..of course she did!!!!!! she had never been on a choke before (more's the pity) and did not know what would happen when someone was actually in control of her and once she came to realise that she calmed down amazingly quickly!!! I am NOT saying choke chains are right or wrong as you are I am just giving 1 experience I have had....I am sorry you did not like my story>>>>>[/quote] Your story was typical of people who don't know how to train only how to hurt a dog to make it obey. I find it sad you felt you needed to share it to help convince more dog owners to hurt their pets instead of training them. You don't seem to care one bit how much neck damage you may have done to the dog with that collar - but then you won't be caring for the dog as it ages anyway. :cry: Its pretty simple to control even a large dog and not let it pull you along *if* you know how to do it and you don't need a choke collar to manage it just the wit to keep your body from being in prime pull position or to keep the dog from taking off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 This Guest has nothing to add to this topic but "feel pity for our abused dogs on choke/pinch choke collars". We are here to ask/talk about things concerning our pets. You sound like an expert on training so i would have to suggest for you to go to the expert forums. If you have something to [b]add[/b] or help the people here it is always welcomed. But, if all you will do is shoot down everyones opinoins please leave or put your name to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 [quote name='Underdog']This Guest has nothing to add to this topic but "feel pity for our abused dogs on choke/pinch choke collars". We are here to ask/talk about things concerning our pets. You sound like an expert on training so i would have to suggest for you to go to the expert forums. If you have something to [b]add[/b] or help the people here it is always welcomed. But, if all you will do is shoot down everyones opinoins please leave or put your name to yourself.[/quote] Hmm and your helpful contribution was???? I find it pretty pathetic that people are proud of hurting animals instead of interested in training them and that pain training is lauded while the suggestion that there are other kinder methods to use in training pets is ridiculed. Take a good long look at yourselves when you say 'leave you aren't contributing anything' - IMO it simply shows your fear of learning anything new or perhaps your embarassed shame at not knowing any other way to train other than hurting your pets! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 [quote name='K']O>K> O>K> weve tried to be polite and say that there are two sides to this and two opinions and two trains of thought but you can't/won't accept that and move on so we'll do it for you..... IGNORING YOU NOW GUEST![/quote] Two sides - that would be about right - there are people who think its cool to hurt dogs in the name of training them and people who think it isn't. Thank heavens more and more dog trainers are realizing there are better ways to train than the jerk them around by the neck method left over from the old cruel army dog training days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 [quote name='K']P.S. I need a choke to do the Stop/Start/Treat thing...how do you do it???[/quote] Ah a real question! - sorry I missed it before tucked in so neatly and quietly in among the scoffers. There are several ways to do it - you can use a flat collar and just *stop* dead while the dog pulls and when the dog ceases pulling his reward is praise plus moving in the direction he wants to go. If you are not strong enough to hold the dog do what the horse people call 'snubbing' - snub the leash around something with a half turn - fence post, phone pole, parking meter, tree, building corner anything to give you the helpful hold of friction while you teach the dog that pulling doesn't get them anywhere but loose lead motion will. Another method is to turn and go the other way from the direction the dog is pulling you in. Makes for a crazy looking start to a walk but it works and you don't have to have a choke collar on the dog for that one either as long as the flat collar is properly fitted so the dog cannot pull it off. With breeds where that is an issue I suggest a martingale or limited slip collar properly fitted so it cannot choke the dog. Pretty quickly a dog will slacken the leash and keep an eye on this 'crazy owner'. If you are using a clicker you would mark the correct behavior with a click and give a treat/reward and keep marking the correct behavior while the dog gets the hang of walking nicely. Yu might find this article helpful [url]http://www.clickersolutions.com/clickersolutions/articles/walking.htm[/url] or this one [url]http://www.clickersolutions.com/clickersolutions/articles/lltotal.htm[/url] to see ways of handling the loose lead training without the choker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted July 13, 2002 Author Share Posted July 13, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous']Correct, so why are you trying to change lily's lead training method then? a halti is the easy way out. why confuse her?[/quote] When did I ever say I was trying to change her method? I simply said her training lessons START tommorrow, we had a speech last weekend on methods. I have chosen the motivation methods, eg the use of food and either a flat collar or halti. Where did you get the idea I was changing and confusing her? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted July 13, 2002 Author Share Posted July 13, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='K']Guest I know it was a long post but please read carefully......she still pulled THE FIRST TIME..of course she did!!!!!! she had never been on a choke before (more's the pity) and did not know what would happen when someone was actually in control of her and once she came to realise that she calmed down amazingly quickly!!! I am NOT saying choke chains are right or wrong as you are I am just giving 1 experience I have had....I am sorry you did not like my story>>>>>[/quote] Your story was typical of people who don't know how to train only how to hurt a dog to make it obey. I find it sad you felt you needed to share it to help convince more dog owners to hurt their pets instead of training them. You don't seem to care one bit how much neck damage you may have done to the dog with that collar - but then you won't be caring for the dog as it ages anyway. :cry: Its pretty simple to control even a large dog and not let it pull you along *if* you know how to do it and you don't need a choke collar to manage it just the wit to keep your body from being in prime pull position or to keep the dog from taking off.[/quote] Well guest, quite obviously you are very narrow minded and uneducated, cant you see that it is the owners behavior that is damaging the dogs neck? A dog pulling like that on its flat collar is sure to develop neck and trachea problems, cant you see that? Where as, if it were taught to walk nicely on a check chain it would go through life with no probs whatsoever. And dont you try telling me that I am wrong, BECAUSE I AM NOT AND I KNOW THAT!!!! I'm simply stating the facts, in fact, flat collars can be many times crueler and more damaging than any other training device!!! Face it, some dogs simply arent suited to flat collar training methods. If flat collars are so kind, then how come every second dog you see in the street wearing them is straining and choking themselves? It is only when people let their dogs do this with check chains that they too become dangerous. There is absolutly no evidence to prove that a check chain used CORRECTLY causes any damage whatso ever, let alone any more damage than the flat collar you beleive so religeously in!!!! SO LOOK AT THE FACTS BEFORE YOU POST AND ACCUSE EVERYONE ELSE OF BEING CRUEL, WHEN WHEN ALL THEY ARE DOING IS SAVING THEIR DOGS NECKS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted July 13, 2002 Author Share Posted July 13, 2002 BTW, I've decided that I'll only get a halti if I have troubles training Lily with the flat collar/praise/play/food reward system. First lessons tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes!!! :D :P :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 cant we all get along? Why must you always argue? :evil: Guest vs member. I think guest do need to indnetify themselves because not all of them are rude and mean, just maybe 1 or 2. but why does that 1 person have to be so rude? I mean does it kill you to be polite? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 I have been sitting here watching these topics for a while now I think our rude guest is the one with the clicker fetish, i may be wrong, guest please tell me if i am? but every time the same clicker training sites are given out. So now i think i know who you are, would you like to give yourself some sort of user name? Roo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 [quote name='Aroura'][quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='K']Guest I know it was a long post but please read carefully......she still pulled THE FIRST TIME..of course she did!!!!!! she had never been on a choke before (more's the pity) and did not know what would happen when someone was actually in control of her and once she came to realise that she calmed down amazingly quickly!!! I am NOT saying choke chains are right or wrong as you are I am just giving 1 experience I have had....I am sorry you did not like my story>>>>>[/quote] This guest likes no stories but her own :-? Your story was typical of people who don't know how to train only how to hurt a dog to make it obey. I find it sad you felt you needed to share it to help convince more dog owners to hurt their pets instead of training them. You don't seem to care one bit how much neck damage you may have done to the dog with that collar - but then you won't be caring for the dog as it ages anyway. :cry: Its pretty simple to control even a large dog and not let it pull you along *if* you know how to do it and you don't need a choke collar to manage it just the wit to keep your body from being in prime pull position or to keep the dog from taking off.[/quote] Another rude guest hiding behind the others.. 8) .why is everyone else always wrong and you are always sooooo right, get some guts, name yourself. :oops: Well guest, quite obviously you are very narrow minded and uneducated, cant you see that it is the owners behavior that is damaging the dogs neck? A dog pulling like that on its flat collar is sure to develop neck and trachea problems, cant you see that? Where as, if it were taught to walk nicely on a check chain it would go through life with no probs whatsoever. And dont you try telling me that I am wrong, BECAUSE I AM NOT AND I KNOW THAT!!!! I'm simply stating the facts, in fact, flat collars can be many times crueler and more damaging than any other training device!!! Face it, some dogs simply arent suited to flat collar training methods. If flat collars are so kind, then how come every second dog you see in the street wearing them is straining and choking themselves? It is only when people let their dogs do this with check chains that they too become dangerous. There is absolutly no evidence to prove that a check chain used CORRECTLY causes any damage whatso ever, let alone any more damage than the flat collar you beleive so religeously in!!!! SO LOOK AT THE FACTS BEFORE YOU POST AND ACCUSE EVERYONE ELSE OF BEING CRUEL, WHEN WHEN ALL THEY ARE DOING IS SAVING THEIR DOGS NECKS!!![/quote][b][u] Well said bravo. :wink: [/u][/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 Aroura, I have seen a halti used on a boxer, though I am not sure of the brand. Her owner assured me that it really worked... as the dog practically bounced off the walls, ripped him off his feet, and took out every customer in the store who was unlucky enough to pass us by, she was doing this to reach my dog for some play. (Poor Hazel didn't know what to do... even *she's* not this hyper!!!) The dog at the time was on a flat coller. I think she had figured out the with out the haltie there was no controle over her and she could act like a maniac... and she was doing a very good job! So I have very mixed feeling about these. We just bought a harnes for the car rides and I really like to use this for our walks. I know, I know.... :oops: But she isn't killing herself to be with the boys and she isn't pulling as much as I have more controle over her. I am not recomending this... simply saying that this was my resort... I should also say I shortened her leash so she can only walk a very short way away from me, and this seemed to help as well. Last night I was watching Eukanuba cup and was just amazed how well these dogs walk or prance next to thier owners... I know there are a few showers out there... what are your methods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 well, i show, I have never had aproblem lead training a dog, i always start them off on the house and garden, i never pull or tug them, when i first put the lead on ( always a soft puppy lead and collar) i just go with them wherever they want to go really, if they run i run with them so that it can't frighten or pull them. I have never resorted to anything else, all my dogs walk on a loose lead, and never pull, i really dont know why, just that it is made to be fun, i always use the work steady if they go a bit fast in the ring thats it really. The breeds are Great Danes and French bulldogs, so they are totally different in every way, we used to run a ring craft (show training ) club and the only real problem dogs were pet owners who had let them drag them along for a long time and the dogs were in control of them. then they just used to do the stop, heel and off we go again bit untill it finally sunk in. sorry i can't be of anymore help. just make it fun, it has always worked for me. Roo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted July 14, 2002 Author Share Posted July 14, 2002 Well, Lily had her first training lessons today!!!! So many cute doggys to see!!! There was the most cutes little bulldog pup and I could just hear Lilys thoughts... "wow, that dogs got a flatter face than me!!!" Everybody complemented Lily, and some of the real dog show people asked me if I showed her and said she has definate possibility!!! Anyway, I went to Vinnies yesterday to get a cheap bum bag, so I could get her treats easy enough. She was a little distracted at times, but apart from that she was pretty good. I think next weekend I'll bring out a toy as well so I can rotate between toys, treats and hugs. There were so many good training tips too! You know how a dog that is always responsive to you and keeps looking up to you is easier to train? Well, we got taught this silly trick, to walk around the house with blue tack stuck to your forehead, everynow and then stick some food to it and as soon as the dog see's it give it the food, sounds stupid but it works!!! We learnt heaps of stuff like that, its not only an obedience class but there is so much taught just for making a more easy to live with dog, they gave us a booklet and all. Afterwards I did Tessas agility with her while dad took Lily for a walk to the creek. Tessas only been doing agility a few weeks and they've already moved her up to the advanced classes!!! She's super smart, and she's really good at it. Apparently while I was doing agility, there were all these dogs from Lilys classes down at the creek and Lily was running around with them all, there was a layer of ice on the creek which Lily put her foot through, and dads come back to the car and said "Lily was with all the other dogs and Lily broke the ice and they all got along!!!"lol. Its been a fun day for me and the dogs, I've decided that Lily probably wont need a halter after all, the training instructers are so good they teach you to teach your dog so well its not neccissary... maybe for the Beagle it might be though :lol: :lol: :lol: I'll keep you all posted on any other training tips I learn along the way :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 [quote name='Aroura']snip nice stuff Its been a fun day for me and the dogs, I've decided that Lily probably wont need a halter after all, the training instructers are so good they teach you to teach your dog so well its not neccissary... maybe for the Beagle it might be though :lol: :lol: :lol: I'll keep you all posted on any other training tips I learn along the way :D[/quote] I am SO GLAD :D you are having a good time with the class :-) I think both you and wonder dog Lily will get a lot more out of it than some of the other types of classes you have had :-) Keep on sharing and maybe a few more people will discover you do not have to hurt a dog to train it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixjollydogs Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 I have a dog that I believe is pit and border collie. She is very sweet, very smart...VERY STRONG....and alpha with other dogs. I was told in obedience class to use a prong collar which I always resisted because they looked like torture instruments. The instructor had an extra which she put on Sophia. It worked wonders and Sophia showed no discomfort at all. I am very very careful and never ever pull or yank. I have been told that they are actually safer than choke collars if used properly. I would like to know what others think. I have also gotten a Gentle Leader and now use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 [quote name='sixjollydogs']I have a dog that I believe is pit and border collie. She is very sweet, very smart...VERY STRONG....and alpha with other dogs. I was told in obedience class to use a prong collar which I always resisted because they looked like torture instruments. The instructor had an extra which she put on Sophia. It worked wonders and Sophia showed no discomfort at all. I am very very careful and never ever pull or yank. I have been told that they are actually safer than choke collars if used properly. I would like to know what others think. I have also gotten a Gentle Leader and now use that.[/quote] I think you were extremely fortunate with your dog with the pinch collar. I'm glad you swapped over to the Gentle Leader and hope it works well for you. Dogs except for the initial yelp you sometimes hear don't 'show discomfort' about the collars except by suddenly heeding the tug of the leash - thats not instant training its the result of pain that you see. I agree the pinch is better than a choke but IMO a martingale is better than a pinch - same action no pain involved as there are no prongs. However the martingale does not give that instant control even though the action is the same because the prongs are not there. If I had to choose between using a prong collar on a dog or having the owner dump the unruly adolescent instead of training it then I would use a pinch collar - presuming those were my only two choices. Happily there are other alternatives now such as the gentle leader to help control dogs that have gone down the 'I am in charge here and I have all the energy of a teen to do it with' road a bit too far before training was initiated. I have never ever denied that pain training works - I just really prefer the results gotten with the alternative methods - and I am making the comparison based on having used all the tools including years of using the traditional ones. Now why I said you were lucky is this - some dogs react to the prong collar sensation of teeth around their throats with submission - others go through the roof and into all out combat aggression stands and not only do you lose the trust of the dog you may well push it past reclamation into a war on humans. :cry: I suspect you only have to put a pinch collar on the wrong dog once to suddenly discover why they are not the miracle tool one may have thought they were. I'm feeling fortunate because I only witnessed the error in technique and was not the person who did the deed! The trainer lived - the dog did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooshie Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 I'm new here and I know this topic is a few weeks old ,but I just wanted to post my experience with Boxers and head collars in case anyone was still interested.....My boy is a rescue and had NO training or leash manners when I got him....at over half my body weight, he pulled me all over the place on our walks...NOT the most pleasant experience) the rescue organization where I got him, and several trainers I spoke with recommended the "Gentle Leader" and it has worked WONDERS...it took him a couple of days to get used to it, but he hasn't even ATTEMPTED to pull me since....as for Halti's...I'm not an authority, but several boxer and bostom terrier owners I spoke with have told me that the Halti brand headcollar does not work very well on short nose breeds as they can slip it off easily. One thing I DO suggest to anyone considering a head collar for ANY breed of dog is to have it properly fitted by a veterinarian or trainer,as it will only work to its optimum potential, and be comfortable for your dog if its adjusted EXACTLY right.Hope this helps! :D oh and my SECOND choice in training collars would be the pinch/prong collar...it looks intimidating,BUT it is effective and NOT cruel if used properly (its very important to learn how to use ANY training aid,from someone who has experience BEFORE using it on your dog!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted July 29, 2002 Author Share Posted July 29, 2002 I agree %100 about knowing how to use ANY training device properly, the whole reason they can get a bad name is from people using them incorrectly and injuring their dog! Just for anyone wondering, Lily is doing GREAT in her classes, training lessons 3 times a day are seeing her the top of her class, people are actually coming up to me and asking how I got her to walk so nicely!!! Not only that, everyone has fallen madly in love with her and the whole class want a boxer! Its not a small class either, but Lily, being the class clown, has made sure she captured everyones heart. She makes me proud every day :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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