Ears cropping

[deepseasnake]

[quote]you think no surgery should happen to dogs because some people take lousy care of some dogs who have surgery done to them by not so hot vets. Sorry I don't buy into that line of thinking at all.[/quote]

I'm not sure what this statement meant....
I totally agree with canine surgery, that is medicaly called for like cancer, and the like, but not the cosmetic surgery, and Im not buying the whole man created ears thing. we arnt capable of creation so the drop ears had to come from somewhere. its not like thier synthetic, not to mention plenty of working dogs do not have their ears cropped (exclude protection work) and are doing fine, and plenty of dogs even that arent included in the "bull" breeds are not cropped. not to sound like a broken record here but my goldens sure arent cropped and for that matter would never be

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='deepseasnake'][quote]you think no surgery should happen to dogs because some people take lousy care of some dogs who have surgery done to them by not so hot vets. Sorry I don't buy into that line of thinking at all.[/quote]

I'm not sure what this statement meant....
I totally agree with canine surgery, that is medicaly called for like cancer, and the like, but not the cosmetic surgery, and Im not buying the whole man created ears thing. we arnt capable of creation so the drop ears had to come from somewhere. its not like thier synthetic, not to mention plenty of working dogs do not have their ears cropped (exclude protection work) and are doing fine, and plenty of dogs even that arent included in the "bull" breeds are not cropped. not to sound like a broken record here but my goldens sure arent cropped and for that matter would never be[/quote]
I just disagree with you as to what is 'medically called for' in this case.
As for drop ears being man created - let me assure you NO wild dogs have drop ears as its anti survival, so the mutation would not last in the wild population. Its totally man created and not 'natural' to dogs which is why most likely that so many problems arise in drop eared dogs in terms of ear infections and ear flap hematomas.
No I can't imagine cropping a golden but then birds don't do much damage to ears especially dead ones being retrieved!

[deepseasnake]

well you just made two kinda contradictory statements there,

[quote]...NO wild dogs have drop ears as its anti survival...[/quote]

anti survival vs used only for hunting

[quote]No I can't imagine cropping a golden but then birds don't do much damage to ears especially dead ones being retrieved![/quote]
so you can see not cropping a retriever because its not part of his job description, yet is it still "anti" survival for these dogs to carry drop ears?

see I agree that hunting dogs should have cropped ears. However I dont think its impossible to have a successful hunter with drop ears. or maybe better put, the dog can be successful either way.

my question Guest, is where exactly did the drop ears come from? because some dog in some time who was "surviving" had to have drop ears for our dogs to have them now. It is impossible for us to "give" dogs new ears just as it is impossible for us to "give" our dogs the ability to speak english.

I dont mean to be critical here and I'm not starting a "fight" I just want to know if you have thought about this before? and if you have shed some light for me

[Guest Anonymous]

why exactly do some dogs ears droop? I mean I know blood hounds and bassets have really long ears to catch the scent, but say australian shepherds... why do they have droopy ears? And why do the border collies have pointed ears... they both do the same job and have pretty much the same temperment and build... and honestly I sometimes have a lot of trouble telling the two apart! So why have they "evolved" this way?

[deepseasnake]

well haze I know what our guest is gonna say.......

[pets4ever]

Hello everyone,

I am new to the group having just signed up. I currently have a Queensland Heeler (red) and will be getting a Doberman in a few months. I had to respond to this subject and the direction it's taking. Obviously, man has bred the drop ear trait into domestic dogs! They have bred every breed of dog there is from wolves and dingos, etc. Wild canines have erect ears, they can hear better and stay cleaner. It doesn't matter that there are no drop ear wild dogs in order to create one! It doesn't happen overnight. Of course you must admit that a wolf looks nothing like a poodle or a chihuahua or an old english sheepdog. People created them little by little. It's called selection. When it happens in nature, it's natural selection. Many traits dogs have nowadays would be detrimental in the wild, but that's the way people wanted them, and the dogs don't care- -they are just happy to be! As for the ear-cropping issue, if it's done well and taken care of, it is just a minor annoyance for a while to the pup. They don't know any different and they are happy, and when it's over, they don't remember or dwell on it. It's when it's done poorly or cruelly (scissors!?) and not cleaned and retaped properly (by the new owner) that problems come up. I don't think it's any more cruel than circumsicion, or piercing baby's ears or whatever. As for the sisters dobe pup, I think that the fact that she had to have it done (bad sign), that it might have been done late and so the pup was more "aware" of it; and also maybe she isn't cleaning and retaping as often as she should be.

Well, I know that this was a long ranting post, especially for a new person and I hope I didn't step on any toes. I like your site and like that fact that everyone writes in a lot and has different opinions. :wink:

[Smooshie]

Welcome to the group pets4ever! We're a pretty fiery bunch around here and the discussions get a little heated sometimes,but opinions are always welcome and our moderators are great at intervening in the event of an all out riot :wink:

[deepseasnake]

You didnt step on toes and we do appreciate new people who are willing to talk vs. newbies who do nothing but babble.

You have started in an older topic so I must refresh the heat I was in at the begining but as I type now it is surely coming back to me.

to address your comment on selection, yes a wolf does not look like a poodle and yada yada yada but I dont think you understood my question or maybe I haven't understood your answer but either way I'll rephrase. If a dog in the wild never possesed a drop ear, no matter how long you give it and no matter how many generations you wait there still will not be a drop ear, UNLESS through process of "natural selection" a chrom. is left behind and what ever develops the erectness doesn't develop, which in fact would mean it was developed in the wild, for the wild. As we all know the definition of "natural selection" is the ABANDONMENT of a trait or traits to "better" the organism. Natural selection is NOT a source of creation, in fact it is just the opposite. Evolution is the[b] model [/b]in which creation takes place, not natural selection. So in the case of the drop ears if this was created it was created in the wild through process of natural selection. If that is the case this whole disscusion is irrelevant as drop ears are beneficial for the dog. Otherwise we would have a natural selection process to abandon the flap of ear covering, or better put, the dogs would eventually lose that piece of ear.

definition
[i]natural selection[/i]
"Process in nature that results in [u]the most [/u]fit organisms producing [u]the most offspring [size=6]that survive [/size]and reproduce[/u]"

or for you techies out there :wink:

"A characteristic of natural selection is that it ONLY works with exsisting phenotypes, which are developed from exsisting genetic information (geneotypes). In other words, natural selection only works with existing information and does not add anything new. It can select from exsisting genes (information), but not create new genes. This is also reffered to as genetic variation"

both quotes from Mike Riddle phd and Dr Bob Compton

so really what I am left with here is 2 things
first that dogs developed the drop ear for good reason and thus it exsits today and I'm right
or
that dogs fell victim to a negative mutation in which the drop ear was created, and for whatever reason this mutation survived the proccess of natural selection and exsits today in what might be the majority of dogs. so your right

DAMN I FORGOT! actually there is a third way I have thought of, genetic mutation is acredited for makeing neutral changes, changes that do not effect the function either way. This very well could be what happend in which case we are both wrong its neither bad nor good

to throw out one more quote on genetic mutation this is from Maxim D. Frank-Kamenetski, [i]Unraveling DNA[/i] 1997, p. 72

"Mutations are rare phenomena, and a simultaneous change of even two amino acid residues in one protien is totally unlikly. But what is the outcome of a single subsitution? It will either turn out to be neutral (i.e., not affecting the function of a particular enzyme) or negative...
One could think, for instance that by constantly changing amino acids one by one, it will eventualy be possible to change the entire sequence substantially...These minor changes, however, are bound to eventually result in a situation in which the enzyme has ceased to perform its previous function but has not yet begun its "new duties". It is at this point it will be destroyed-along with the organism carrying it.

so I'm gonna say it was either a "Healthy" change or a neutral one, seeing as dogs still have ears and all :D

[bk_blue]

Soooo.... why is ear cropping illegal in Australia then, if it's for the health of the dogs' ears? I understand the reasoning behind it (ear infections et al), but this procedure is banned in many countries. In fact if you go to this page: [url]http://www.keymasterdanes.com/crop.htm[/url]
it claims that there is no evidence that ear cropping has any significant medical benefits, as there has been no scientific study on the topic. Is it therefore thought that the unnecessary pain it causes the dog overrules any potential health problems it may have later on? This may be strident anthropomorphism, but putting puppies through that seemingly cruel process for the sake of a slight health risk or a tougher "look" does not sit well with me.

Tail docking still takes place here but more and more vets are refusing to carry out the surgery.
The Australian Veterinary Association
[url]http://www.ava.com.au/content/aboutava/taildock.htm[/url]
makes for interesting reading re: tail docking and why they are against it.

Oh and welcome Pets4Ever :wink:

[Gordonmom]

Ok, my two cents.

Dogs in the wild have upright ears because they have to have the ability to heare predetors. That is why the ears are erect and can move about forward and backward. That is why herding dogs have upright ears. Hunting dogs developed drop ears as protectinon from the bruch when having their nose to the ground.

Guest made a ridiculous statement when equating ear cropping with tattoos. When he stated that you cannot tell if a tattoo hurts unless you have had one, I say that unless he has had his ears cropped, he cannot tell if that hurts. I do know my ears hut when I had them pierced. I can imagine what it would feel like to have them chopped off.

The majority of scientists have basically come to the conclusion that evolution and natural selection have come to a halt, simply because evolution involves CHANGE and we have taken that out of the equation. What they agree about now is that now that physical evolution has ceased, we are now going through a period of MENTAL evolution. Some will survive and prosper, some will perish.

Old ways of thinking should be revisited, and thoughts of just is right for the betterment of all animals on this earth should be given consideration.

[deepseasnake]

[i]Gordonmom said[/i]
[quote]Dogs in the wild have upright ears because they have to have the ability to heare predetors. That is why the ears are erect and can move about forward and backward. That is why herding dogs have upright ears. Hunting dogs developed drop ears as protectinon from the bruch when having their nose to the ground. [/quote]

good point, I have failed to look at like this, makes sense.

[i]Gordonmom said[/i]
[quote]The majority of scientists have basically come to the conclusion that evolution and natural selection have come to a halt[/quote]

I'm not real sure who you are reffering to? canine scientists?
and when you say "hault"????? you are talking about dogs?

[Gordonmom]

Just any old scientist :D . The theory now adays is that any form of
evolutionary change is brought about by us, and therefore is controled. Such as Bald eagles becoming extinct. They were becoming extinct because humans put the pesticide in the water, which made their eggs fragile. When their numbers were dangerously low, we banned the pesticides, and their numbers are returning.

We are killing off the killer whales, because of the amount of PCB's in thier system. With natural selection, it is not usually the top of the food chain that gets bumped out. Most killer whales cannot make it to their second birthday. However, now their are plans to try to reintroduce the captive killer whales that still have maintained the language of their pod back into the wild to try and get a healthier group of whales out their. This intervention of first killing them off, then reintroducing them is contrary to natural selection.

When we control the enviornment, we control change. If the earth is getting hotter, we build air conditioning, we do not force those of us that cannot adapt to change or perish. When we get sick, we go to the doctor and get healed rather than being strong enough to cure ourselves or die.
We do not allow change to effect us in ways that the weak will be naturally selected out. If change does happen, we compensate for it not by weeding out those that cannot adapt to the change, but rather controling how the change will affect us.

If evolution were taking place, I gotta believe their would be no toy dogs. I cannot imagine a pack of Pomeranians terrorizing the neighborhood before they were wiped out.

So therefore physical evolution has been halted. There can be changes made, like a bullboxer or something, but that is not an evolutionary change. That is just a cosmetic change. We are controling the breeding of these dogs.

Is any of this clear or was I just rambling??

[yellowlabsrule]

I am TOTALLY AGAINST cropping! :cry: I think dogs are WAY cuter when you don't crop!