gooeydog

[quote name='Ash']What the heck are they? I'm sorry I'm incredibly naive, it sounds so cruel. A girl at another debate is actually debating how well they work. They seem cruel to me. She claims it doesn't hurt them. But h*** if someone pinches me it hurts. Can someone please explain them to me a little bit?[/quote] Posted most of this just a couple days ago on a different forum, but I'd type the same thing out anyway, so saving myself some time :oops: They are a tool. Just like Haltis, GLs, Choke chains, harnesses, even flat collars and leashes. Like any tool, they may be better suited for some situations and some dogs than others, so its best to have some guidance when learning to use them. IMO better though to give few meaningful corrections to get a point across than spend months or years nagging your dog, which only increases frustration on both your and the dog's ends. Here's a pretty good article on the prong collar that explains how, when used properly, it can be a valuable tool for training some dogs: [url]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html[/url] I train (our personal dogs, and a few others as a favor, so I'm no expert) our dogs using primarily positive reinforcement, toy rewards, treats, whatever motivates them to work for me. That's not to say that there haven't been a few things where I've resorted to corrections to reinforce the importance of, and for some of the dogs, it's been through a prong collar. For example, our older APBT is VERY dog aggressive, and quite frequently would pretend to be a fire breathing dragon when she'd see other dogs on our walks (huffing, prancing around on her toes, just waiting for them to make the slightest provocative move so she could bawl them out)... obviously not acceptable. I tried approaching it through positive only methods, forget it. She's not very food or toy (now, furry live critters are another story) motivated, and even after several months, we were making no progress. Going into it, I had an idea of things she DOES enjoy doing a lot, and decided that my goal would be to teach her to do one of them rather than snark at other dogs. Granted, she enjoyed the latter so much that any of my alternative things was not nearly as much fun, and I could forget about it. So, I used leash corrections with the prong collar to help change her mind, since snarking other dogs got her a correction, suddenly she decided that pulling on the lead past them (she loves to pull, and isn't normally encouraged to) was a much better plan. Problem solved, in a little over a week, with just a few moderate leash corrections. Now, if my dog were more easily motivated through positive only means, I probably could've gotten by without the prong collar, but in this case, it saved me a lot of frustration, and made walks more enjoyable for both of us. I'll also add that I used the prong collar differently than most here advocate, I DID give corrections with it, as I found that allowing my dog to self correct when she lunged only served to amp her up more and make her act worse... definitely not the effect I was looking for. So, I walked her on a flat collar on one lead, prong collar on another lead, which was kept loose, and as soon as she started making oogly eyes at another dog, I'd correct with the prong collar and redirect her to pulling on her flat collar lead past them. At this level, only a mild/moderate correction was needed, whereas no collar would make a difference once she was already zoned into the dog. Likewise, I used a prong collar to proof the down on our Dachshund (also used it to work some on her dog aggression, same way as above), she's a priss about wet grass/ground, and when I'd tell her to down on them, she'd look at me with her clearest "eff off" expression and not move. Initially I tried to play off her ball drive, but was getting nowhere, so I felt some compulsion would be needed to make clear that it wasn't optional. She tends to be pretty hard when it comes to physical corrections though, and I didn't want to be yanking on her neck on a flat or choke collar, so the prong collar seemed like it'd be the most effective with the least amount of force. A few sessions later (using a combination of prong collar corrections and toy motivation), and she was back to working off-leash, with the understanding that I really DID mean down when I said it, no matter what the ground conditions were. I rarely use the collars on either dog now, unless we're going to be in a situation where they may be highly motivated to act out (situations with out of control dogs, for example), or if I'm doing a training exercise in which I anticipate they may need extra "convincing" to comply. Tell me, does this really look like a victim of cruelty? [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/flyingpinkpig/april/annbrickdogwalk05.jpg[/img]

[quote]Conformation doesnt test temperment like it should. Temperment above anything else is the most important thing in deciding to breed.[/quote] The best temperament in the world won't be of much good if a dog is so poorly put together that they're falling apart by age 5. So no, fad breeding like is common in show circles is no good, but a good breed standard can be a valuable tool for evaluating physical traits in a dog, so yes, conformation can be important. I also feel that less breeders would not necessarily = more people adopting from shelters/rescues. Many people are of the mindset that these dogs are defective, and would likely just not have a dog at all if that was the only option they had for getting one (doesn't mean I think its right, but it is true). In addition, many people who get a dog from a breeder would not instead get a dog from a shelter if the breeder was not an option. Take my situation for example... I'd eventually (years down the road) like to get a Dachshund and train for some sort of real life scentwork, most likely SAR. For these purposes, the dog needs to be absolutely stable, have good sense, good conformation (as it applies to being able to handle the work), health, drive, etc. Chances of me finding a dog that I can be resonably sure has these traits and will remain sound into retirement age are pretty slim, even given the large number of Dachs in rescue, because of the sheer number of horrible breeders breeding without regard for these traits. Even if I find a dog that has the traits I want in rescue, there are no guarantees they will remain physically sound throughout their life (for example, IVDD is believed to be influenced a great deal by genetics, a paralyzed dog will not be of much use for what I want), whereas I could be at least a bit more reassured knowing that a breeder dog had no history of the disease in their lineage. So, more likely than not, I will be going to a breeder should I decide to get a dog and try this. And I can see how someone would seek to get the healthiest, soundest dog they could find for a variety of reasons, so for someone who needed that reassurance of knowing their dog's family history, it might be the only way they would choose to go. Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything you've said :) One other thing that stood out: [quote] I'm not sure CGC would work well w/all breeds, some weren't bred for their social skills...not meaning any should be foaming at the mouth ready to eat everyone though![/quote] I disagree. The CGC is a basic manners/obedience test, not much on there that you and your dog couldn't encounter on a walk or trip to the petstore. With all the problems with dog bites, I can't see passing on the temperament of a dog that can't handle everyday events, irregardless of breed (and I know there are some that are bred to have less tolerance, but feel that some compromises must be made at times for the good of all).

I'm really sorry to see this, as I was really hoping things would work out well for you, Tina, and the pups :( But at the same time, Tina is one lucky girl to have landed in your home, and I'm sure your wife will be happy with her!

I can do some general proofreading stuff if anyone needs it, and can also help on APBT/Staffs and Dachshunds (haven't read through, so I don't know what all is covered).

The petsmart around here use to carry those kind (that's where I got them), but stopped a few seasons ago, they do have a website though: [url]http://www.fidofleece.com/category.cfm?Category=9&CFID=14648362&CFTOKEN=80820403[/url] If it helps any, Goo/Haley (55 lbs and pretty deep chested) fit in a large, and Annie (12 lbs) fits in an x-small, they do have a sizing guide on the site too I think? These are the best style of jacket I've seen, we also have one of those ones with just a single strap in front, and single strap around their girth, and once Casey was swimming and I went to grab the handle to help pull her up over the bulkhead, only to have it slip right over her halfway up, leaving her panicked and disoriented in the water still... haven't used it since. These ones hold snug even when pulling up the big dogs (55 lbs), and the webbing across the chest helps to distribute their weight a bit more as well when you do pull on it.

Animal activists PETA raise corporate America's ire By Carey Gillam Tue Jul 12, 9:08 AM ET NORFOLK, Va., (Reuters) - With a cat snoozing on her desk and clad in a rumpled "Love Animals" T-shirt, Ingrid Newkirk hardly looks like a woman who could make corporate titans tremble. ADVERTISEMENT As the founder and the passionate force behind People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Newkirk says her organization is made up simply of "kind people" who want only to end animal abuse and exploitation. But try telling that to the corporate retail and food giants who have seen -- and felt -- PETA's claws. Using tactics that sometime make even avid animal lovers squirm, and backed by nearly $30 million yearly in private contributions, PETA has become known worldwide as a radical but formidable foe of big retailers and food companies. At a May protest at a KFC restaurant, also known as Kentucky Fried Chicken, PETA protesters dressed as Grim Reapers and carried a coffin with a human-sized chicken in it while decrying the fast food giant for "live scalding and painful debeaking" of the chickens it serves. PETA has also run "McCruelty," "MurderKing" and "WickedWendy's" campaigns to assail fast food chains for the way animals used in their products are treated. The group has picketed the homes of executives, dispatched undercover investigators to videotape animal mistreatment at laboratories and on farms and run stomach-turning ad campaigns with bloody images of abuse and slaughter. "Sometimes sadly, you have to look quite scary and carry a big stick," Newkirk says of the tactics. Industry leaders say the campaigns are embarrassing but do little to deter customers. But few deny PETA campaigns were the catalysts behind a range of animal welfare reforms made in recent years by McDonald's Corp. (NYSE:MCD - news), privately held Burger King Corp. and Wendy's International Inc. (NYSE:WEN - news). "They've got $29 million a year, you can do a lot of massaging of public opinion with that kind of money," said Rick Berman, executive director of the Center for Consumer Freedom, whose membership includes restaurant and food companies. "PETA is very good at attacking." HOW TO KILL A CHICKEN This summer, as PETA celebrates 25 years of largely successful campaigns, the group has set its sights on one of its toughest challenges yet as it seeks sweeping change in the $29 billion U.S. poultry industry. PETA wants the estimated 9 billion chickens slaughtered each year in the United States to first receive a mixture of gas and oxygen to make them unconscious, a method used in Europe, but one that would require costly overhauls of U.S. poultry slaughterhouses. Current U.S. systems shackle live chickens, hang them upside down and run them through electrified baths to stun them before their throats are slit and they are put into scalding defeathering tanks. PETA cited USDA reports as evidence that millions of chickens annually are conscious through most if not all of the process. "I don't understand how anyone with a conscience can learn about the horrifically cruel conditions for chicken slaughter and not want to do anything about it," said PETA campaign director Bruce Friedrich. Under pressure from PETA, McDonald's issued a report on June 30 saying it was studying the matter. Restaurant operator Applebee's International Inc. (NYSE:APPB - news) is also confronting the issue, thanks to PETA. National Chicken Council spokesman Richard Lobb said the current slaughter system is both "effective and humane," and PETA's latest reform requests are efforts to drive up costs and put chicken companies out of business. "They're just trying to come up with things that will be costly for food companies as part of their overall desire to move to a strictly vegan world," Lobb said. Because of the issue, KFC, a subsidiary of YUM! Brands Inc., (NYSE:YUM - news) of Louisville, Kentucky, and one of the world's largest fast-food purveyors of chickens, is emerging as one of PETA's staunchest foes. Having seen PETA protesters smear fake blood on its restaurant walls and smear the company name with gory undercover videos of alleged abuse at its suppliers, KFC officials have dubbed PETA's actions "corporate terrorism" and have cut off communications with PETA representatives. KFC officials are loathe to discuss anything having to do with PETA publicly. But the Center for Consumer Freedom is backing KFC and its brethren and is running anti-PETA ads, including a billboard in New York's Times Square. "We are taking the fight to PETA," said Berman. "They've hit a roadblock with the chicken industry." Critics accuse PETA of lying and other misdeeds including a range of deceit and misbehavior, including financially aiding acts of violence and unfairly claiming tax-exempt status PIT BULLS PETA officials say they have no intention of letting up on KFC, after staging 8,000 protests against the company so far. Indeed, PETA's highly successful track record shows that some campaigns run for years, the longest, which put an animal trainer in Las Vegas out of business, lasted 16 years, according to Newkirk. Other notches in PETA's belt include persuading General Motors (NYSE:GM - news) to stop using animals in crash tests, convincing Abercrombie & Fitch (NYSE:ANF - news) and J. Crew Group Inc. clothing retailers to boycott Australian wool and pressuring Revlon (NYSE:REV - news), Avon Products Inc. (NYSE:AVP - news) and more than 500 other cosmetic companies to stop animal testing. Over the 25 years since PETA was founded in Newkirk's suburban Maryland home, the organization has grown to include more than 800,000 members and about 200 employees with offices in the United Kingdom, India, Germany, and the Netherlands. Wealthy benefactors help fund sophisticated multi-faceted marketing and secret investigations. Stray animals are given homes in PETA's headquarters, and cat-sized holes are cut into the bottoms of many office doors so the animals can move about freely. Newkirk says PETA's ultimate goal is a world where humans don't eat, wear or exploit animals. "We are the pit bulls of animal protection," Newkirk said in a recent interview. "Don't mess with us. We will win."

I know how you feel too, Goo doesn't sleep quite that soundly, but every once in a while, she scares the crap out of me. The last incident was about the same as yours, I woke up and the blanket had came off her so she didn't feel very warm, and didn't move when I called her name, so I felt to see if she was breathing and couldn't tell (panic rising in my throat at that point), called her and no response, finally I gave her a good shake and she woke up looking at me like "WHAT!? I'm trying to sleep here!". And they say pets will lower your blood pressure :roll: In any case, hopefully Jesse has had enough of scaring his mom for now, and I'm glad to hear that he's still got some zip :)

I get them too, most are pretty helpful, though some (like the food ones, they suggest some nasty foods) aren't. And Goo loves hide and seek! I don't have anyone hold her, just tell her to stay and go hide, most of the time she does, though occasionally I'll be in the process and peek out to see her standing there watching, amused (if a dog can be amused) look on her face :lol: She's very skilled, and I rarely even have to call her again, she'll hunt around till she finds me, then if I'm within reach, pounce on me and trample my guts :o Haley doesn't grasp the concept, and just chases Goo around aggravating her, so she has to be put up when we play.

Well, Annie must've ran into something yesterday and bruised up her eye a bit, because it was squinted up a bit this morning (happens every so often, thats what happens when your eyes are just 6" off the ground :o :lol: ), so I decided to leave her at home. Haley went instead, and did we have an adventure! She made a ton of friends at Petsmart, and was pretty wore out when we finally left there. I tried to take her into one other shop in the same center, but they told me once I was in that she couldn't come in, so we left and went back to Petsmart to wait. Then, we went to a drugstore to get her insulin, and since it was kinda hot, I decided to take her up by the store and wait rather than stay in the hot car. We were walking up, Haley wagging her tail and hopping along with a toy in her mouth, and a woman came out, looked at Haley, and launched over the cement bumper seperating the sidewalk from the parking lot, just as a car was pulling into the spot and almost mowed her down. I was something between amused and disturbed at that point, and turned away only to hear her say to the driver of the car, "I'd rather get ran over than near THAT dog!". Ooookay. Next, as we neared the entrance/exit to the store (I was planning to go between the two so I could catch my mom coming out), a woman heading into the store with a little girl in front of her (probably about 10 yrs old, I guess it was her kid) spotted Haley, grabbed her kid and went to push her into the store, only to step on her ankles and knock her to the concrete. And they think my DOG is dangerous :roll: :lol: . So, we waited. A man came out and stopped to talk to Haley, then upon seeing how friendly she was, petted her for a few minutes, and was telling me about his son's pit bull. It was a pleasant experience, and at least he didn't nearly kill himself or anyone else trying to escape from us. Then, to my dismay, I saw the security guard (an older man, he's worked there for years) come out of the store and head towards us. I thought, "here we go, someone must've complained and now he's going to tell me to take my scary dog and get lost", but to my surprise, he stopped, regarded Haley for a minute, then pulled a pack of cookies out of his pocket and asked if she could have one! I looked, and they were some sugar filled, creme filling type, definitely not what Haley needed, so I told him she can't because of her diabetes, and he petted her, then asked again, "not even one?" :lol: so I gave him some liver treats to give her instead. So, while we had some bad experiences, we also had some very good ones :) Side note: I was telling my Dad about it a bit ago, and he says that I should respect that some people are afraid of pit bulls.... I think there's a difference between being afraid and being irrational though, which IMO, both of these people were. I didn't push my dog on them, she wasn't doing anything to raise alarm and she wasn't even close to either of them when they had their reactions, so I dunno... And Mei, I'll see what I can do about Annie with tool pics :lol:

Not really a big deal, but it's been a while since she's really been anyplace but the big "pet friendly" petsmart and the local store (where the lady who owns it always gives her meat or cheese scraps :D ). Tomorrow my mom has some running to do, petsmart and a few other stores in that area, and I think I'm going to take her along and see how many of them we can get into, if not we'll either head back to petsmart or stay outside while my mom shops, but hopefully she'll get in some good socialization. I'd give it a try with Haley, but she's a lot bigger and more noticeable (can't exactly tuck her under an arm and shop :lol: ), and if we have to wait outside she doesn't have the heat tolerance for it, so I'll let Annie be the test dummy. Side note: I know a lot of home depots are supposed to be pet friendly, but ours isn't :-? I did take Annie in real quick once and didn't get any comments, but they have a no pets sign, so is this a new policy or just in my area (which seems to be the norm for stores around here)?

Haley spends more time upside down than rightside up I think, we call it "roaching" after seeing the term on another board :lol: I don't know about a coorelation between good hips and roaching though, and Haley's hips were described by the vet as "not the best", so I suppose that would disagree with that theory. Going to post Haley's pics in the thread now :lol:

So, after Goo's glorious trip to the beach, she's ended up with an ear infection (she'd actually just gotten rid of one, but I didn't have anything on hand to clear the water out with when we were done, and I'm sure some had gotten down in there by the time we got home and I wiped them out), which we're clearing up now. Don't want to completely keep her out of it, which is about the only way to keep her from getting water in them since she tries to eat the water. I'm thinking that the best approach would be to just find something to keep the water completely out, and cotton won't work for the amount of water she was taking on, so earplugs seem like the obvious answer. They'd only be used when she was actually in the water (I mentioned this once on an APBT email list that I was on, and got all sorts of replies about how cruel it was since her ear gunk would be trapped in there, and the constant pressure of the plug, etc... they just didn't get that I wasn't planning for them to stay in forever, at most it'd be an hour once or twice a week), and whatever I get will have to be the corded type just to be safe, I'm not sure if those cheap foam ones would keep water out or not?

Goo and Annie have been on Canidae kibble and canned food now for 5 or 6 months, and I've noticed several things that have me considering switching them after the next bag or two. First, usually about once or twice a week, Goo has soft poo, not usually runny, but definitely not the way it was when she was on Natural Balance. A few times over the past few months, they've had minor cases of the runs, and one major case, though I've attributed these to possibly being either chicken added to their meals or raw bones I'd given, I'm not sure now whether it was the whole issue or just a contributing factor. Goo has also been really gassy lately, she never was on the Natural Balance, and call me picky, but it's something I'd really prefer not to deal with. It also seems like she's had a bit more allergy troubles since she's been on it, though I think there's an environmental factor there as well, so I can't be sure it's the food causing it. I can't think of anything else that could be causing these problems, they only get Nupro (which they've been on for over a year), fish oil (I did increase Goo's amount from 2000mg to 2500mg, but that shouldn't have caused it I think?), vit. E (been on it for over a year, same as fish oil), and Goo gets MSM powder, which I wouldn't think would cause these problems. Annie is doing ok on it, but that dog could probably eat from a dumpster without any visible problems, she's got a gut of steel :lol: In any case, I'm now on the hunt for another food, though I need to contact the place I was getting it from and see what else they can get me. I know for a fact that they stock Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, Innova, California Natural, Evo, and Merrick foods, and they told me they'd order in any others that their distributor stocks if I need them (that's what they were doing with the Canidae). I could go back to the Natural Balance, but had to get it from Petco, and at the rate they were increasing its price, it's probably at least $1.60 a can, $40 a 35 lb bag by now (at about the top of my limit), plus they had issues keeping it in stock, so I never knew if I'd be able to get it or not. I'm thinking about the following brands, but have heard varying reviews on a few of them, so hoping to get some experiences: California Natural- I'm still a little unsure about Evo with it being so new on the market, maybe we'll give it a try next year, but I am using it for treats and they seem to like it, Innova I think would probably be too rich for Goo. I did read on another board that it's not good to have them on a diet with such limited ingredients long term, true or not? Plus I'm concerned about the sunflower oil in it being a possible allergen (it's also in Canidae, but since we're having issues with it, I dunno). I also know of someone who mixes Innova and California Natural dry foods, which I thought might work for us, bad idea? Timberwolf Organics- Not sure if we even have a distributor for it here, and I doubt I could afford to have it shipped if not, but I've heard a lot of good things about it from bully people, and they have several formulas for dogs with different diet needs. Wellness- Not sure whether the store can get this, but I could try to find someplace else if not. It's also towards the top of my price limit, and I'd heard of a lot of dogs having poo problems on it, which they have enough of already :o Or if anyone's got anything to relate on any of the others mentioned above, I'd like to hear about it. I haven't given either dog any meat in their food since whatever they had going on a few weeks ago, going to try again soon, I just wanted to give their bellies time to calm down. I'm also thinking about taking them off the Nupro and just giving them plain kelp powder for a while, but am wondering if I wouldn't be losing a lot of the benefits of the Nupro (kelp is the first ingredient of it, but there are some others) by putting them on plain kelp?

Far as I know, it isn't rawhide itself that causes cancer, it's the chemicals its treated with to bleach it out, preserve it, etc (one of the chemicals used by some is formaldehyde(sp?). There are some types that have been done up with safe chemicals, some that have not, you have to check them out individually. Even so, there is a chance of choking or intestinal blockage with rawhides, especially if your dog does not chew properly, because they tend to bloat and get slimy with spit as the dog chews.

I don't know what sort of meds can even be used in case of venemous snake/insect bite, nor would I trust any online info, so definitely ask the vet what their thoughts are. I know here there are certain things that some vets will send home if they know you can administer them properly, and with you being so far away from a vet, you'd think they'd understand how important it could be to give her as much help as possible if something did happen, until you could get her in for medical care. Good luck with that!

I would leave my dogs out side alone (with me still in the house) if I had a secure yard (at least 6 ft privacy fence, even for the smaller dogs, probably even bigger for the APBTs), and lived in an area where I could feel relatively safe that no one would bother them or try to steal them. As it is, neither of the latter is very likely around here, but still, I have had comments made that worry me enough to not trust people, and we also don't have a secure enough fence for me to trust them alone for any length of time anyway. Both the bullies love hanging out outside (Haley can be out on the deck with the doors open or in the little fenced part of the yard, as my grandparents living room looks right out into it, so she can be watched, but Goo would jump out in a heartbeat if she saw something, so she's only out supervised), and the little dogs occasionally enjoy a little outside time, though Annie screeches like a banshee if I leave her out there alone for more than two minutes... so I guess it depends on the dog as well, as long as the above conditions were true (secure yard, etc), I'd let them out as long as they wanted out and weather conditions were safe. With being that far away from your vet, it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask them if you can get (either from them or a farm store or the like) some "emergency" med supplies... fluids, strong anti-histamines, etc in case she ever would get bitten by something, or be seriously injured, as 2 hrs is a long drive when you have a serious problem. Not sure how laws in AU are in regards to that sort of thing, but it's definitely something I'd discuss with them (even if you just ask what your best action would be should they get bitten, since you're such a large distance away).

Well, I'd initially planned on just taking my chances with a rescue if I decided on an APBT, but most likely going to a breeder if I decided on a dachs. There aren't many dachs breeders who do any health tests at all, and trying to find one who also breeds for "working" ability seems to be nearly a lost cause. So if I can find a young adult dog that shows no signs of impending health issues, and has the temperament I want through rescue, why not? I was worried that it might seem like I was only interested in a "perfect" dog though, and that if any health issues DID crop up, I'd not want the dog anymore... which is absolutely not the case, as I'm sure you all can tell from our house of misfits :lol: . I mentioned this to someone else the other day, and they said that if I wanted a dog I could count on not to have problems, a rescue wasn't what I wanted, but I feel like you can't get an absolute guarantee with a dog from any source, so if I'm going to take a chance on one from a breeder not turning out sound even though its parents have been tested, I might as well take the chance of a rescue dog having some problem crop up, even though it looked good as a younger dog. If that makes sense? In either case, the dog would still have a loving home, but I don't see why I can't stack the odds in my favor by checking everything out before falling for them and bringing them home. But then part of me feels like it wouldn't be right to turn down a dog I liked based only on some health problem, though since I plan on only having 2 or 3 dogs at most, if I can't refuse the ones that aren't suitable, I may not be able to get one that is... all in all, this is a very confusing matter to me, and I'll probably spend the next 20 yrs of my life debating with myself over it! :lol:

Curious as to whether anyone here has experience or input on the following. At some point in the distant future, I hope to get and train at least one dog for SAR work, though I'm not sure what breed, I'd probably stick to either Dachshunds or APBTs, as they're what I'm most likely to own, and both have assets that would make them possible cantidates. Now, onto my question... is it wrong to ask a rescue group or even shelter to have a dog's hips/elbows, etc screened before adoption to ensure that the dog is physically sound enough to handle that sort of work? Of course, I wouldn't except them to pay for it, but at least to allow it to be done? Or would it be a put off, making it look like I would only be happy with a perfect dog? Thoughts?

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']Oh and I know how hard it can be to handle two young, strong pits. Technically they are still puppies but Maggie was a young puppy, meaning peeing and pooping all over and I couldnt take my eye off of her without her getting into trouble. Yound adults have settled a bit more and all the dogs Ive picked are housebroken, woohoo. I dont mind a lot of energy but I cant handle too much. [/quote] I don't know how old these dogs are, but I can tell you that Haley is 4 yrs old now, and just starting to lose her maniac launch all around the house, be a savage attitude. In addition, she's become even less tolerant towards other dogs that bother her in the past year or so, which is less than surprising, but also less than nice. With two APBTs, you can pretty much plan on having two completely seperate "dog schedules"... seperate walks (unless you can talk someone you trust to handle one into walking with you), seperate training sessions (since amped up food/toy hounds are great to train, not great to have decide they both want the same thing), maybe even seperate playtime. Not to mention that if one dog decides to do something unpleasant (like attack your cat), the other will most likely join in and you'll have a mess on your hands. I often feel as if the dogs are maybe being slighted for attention, especially when one goes and the others are being left at home, stuck in a room or crate for their own safety, it's definitely not always a pleasant thing. In addition, adopting two bonded dogs brings up a whole nother plethora of possible issues, and most rescue I know (even all breed rescues, but especially APBT rescues) will only adopt two dogs at once to people with extensive breed/pack experience... especially since these two are still in a shelter situation, you don't know what sort of surprises are in store once they get to a home with consistent love and companionship always there and their real personalities start to shine through. Since this is your first dog (I think?), both you and your dog would probably be better served by them being your one and only, at least for a while.

[quote name='AllAmericanPUP']most of the standards are rediculous. like white GSD's arent real GSD's..long haired GSD's arent real GSD's....certain colored danes arent real danes....an am staff can only have so much white, etc. etc. it's all pretty rediculous really.[/quote] No, not really. If a trait has the possibility of inhibiting a dog's abilty to do its job, or of causing more health problems, then I wouldn't consider it rediculous. In a breed used for guard work or hunting work, certain coats will be undesireable, which is why they're not preferred according to the standard.... people who want the dogs simply to do a job also don't want to have to keep up with a high maintenance coat. This is a problem in many breeds, PEOPLE (not standards) selecting for coats that are useless or even a hinderance to the breed's original purpose. Not a problem for a dog that's going to be a pet, but there are times when the standard (as its written, not as whatever fad breeder interprets it as) makes plenty of sense. As for white AmStaffs, there's a reason behind that too seeing as predominately white dogs (when the pielbald gene is responsible) have a higher incidence of deafness, as well as skin disorders. In addition, the way I understand it, pigment is among the last things to form in a developing pup fetus, so dogs severely lacking in pigment (like double merles) can also have other related developmental problems. I know my own mostly white APBT gets sunburned on her head after only a short while out in bright sun, and surely for a dog tied outside, repeated sun exposure could cause a serious problem for non-pigmented dogs.

Dachshunds come in smooth, long, and wire coated versions. Supposedly the long hairs have spaniel mixed in many generations back, and wires have terrier mixed in far back, and I've been told many times that the different varieties temperaments reflect this, long hairs are the most docile, then smooths, and wires have even more of that fiery terrier temperament than smooths :) Here's a long haired Dachs pic: [img]http://www.akc.org/images/breeds/dachshund/lg_artwork3.jpg[/img] I also know of someone on an APBT board who has a rescue pit mix with feathering on her ears/tail... though some have suggested she may be a long haired AB. She's looks pretty much like a regular APBT, just with fluffy tail/ears, here's a pic (hope her owner doesn't mind me posting it!): [url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/DSC01356.jpg]Link[/url]

Should've clarified that I really didn't see the list itself as the problem, and did agree with a lot of what was there, but what struck me was the way that for pit bulls, they emphasized that a non-aggressive one is "not the norm", while other breeds got the reasoning behind their presence on the list explained (maybe not completely accurately, as some here have pointed out, but at least it's something). I also was surprised to find that they advocated Border Collies (among other breeds, but this was the one that stood out for me) as "family dogs"... this is something that I've heard many rescuers go on about, how people get them thinking they're great pets, then can't handle them. I think they could've done better to just skip these parts, and put emphasis on individual dog/breed research, with maybe some general "group" descriptions (ie: herding breeds are often high energy and will need a job... terriers are often high energy and some are aggressive to other dogs/small animals, etc).

Also noticed upon looking at the list again that Labs and their crossbreeds rank higher on the list than Akitas, wonder why they weren't on the list, since it is, after all, the best way to determine the "worst" breeds.

They are a seperate breed from APBTs and AmStaffs, BUT because they look similar and all stemmed from the same foundation stock hundreds of years ago, they're all lumped into the one "pit bull" group in many places here. Sometimes Bull Terriers and American Bulldogs as well. Kind of like lumping all nordic breeds as "huskies"... it's not correct, but it's what people tend to do.

[url]http://www.virtualimpax.com/klhh/3003.htm[/url] Problems I see with it? Not differentiating between dog and human aggression, which makes it appear that human aggression is embraced by responsible pit bull fanciers. Also, that this person gives reasons for the other breeds' presence on the list (extreme popularity, poor owners), but makes no mention of the same for pit bulls, despite their being at least as affected by the same. They're also spreading the jaw pressure myth, as there has NEVER been any accurate way of measure a dog's bite strength. As a side note, it aggravates me to no end that on their small dog page, they say that small dogs don't need obedience training :o