TDG Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 courtnek, cheese does have quite a bit "extra" calcium that would balance out phosphorus, but in regards to calories and the amount you'd have to eat (or feed the dog), there are better options. i think it's more viable for humans than for dog feeding. :) example: 100 grams (3.53 oz) of shredded parmesan cheese have 415 kcal and contain 1,253 mg calcium and 735 mg phosphorus. that leaves 371 mg of calcium "free" after substracting the amount needed to balance the phosphorus present in the cheese to a ratio of 1.2:1. one teaspoon of egg shell powder has roughly 1,800 mg of calcium. if you used above mentioned parmesan cheese instead, you need 480 gram (16.9 oz). that would also contribute 1,992 calories! :o that's quite a lot when you look at a recipe that yields for example 11 cups of dog food and a total of 2200 kcal if you don't include the cheese. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 pitbulletta, the grains pitcairn includes in the recipes don't only contribute carbohydrates, they also contain a good amount of protein and other nutrients. that is [b]not[/b] the case with vegetables. i'm not saying that veggies don't have a role in feeding a dog, and while small quantities supply vitamins and some other nutrients, they aren't major sources of nutrition. to help you out with an example, i have loaded a very simple recipe into nutritiondata.com, i hope you can access it [url=http://www.nutritiondata.com/nd.php?q=001Turkeyqq0Patties-00p01e9-00p01t1-00p11u7-05k018e-05k10e1-00p01xt-05k00pv]here[/url]. if not, please let me know and i'll see if i can post it differently. as you see when you scroll down to the tables, the whole recipe contains 197 mg of calcium and 1803 mg of phosphorus. to achieve a ratio of 1.2:1, we need a total of 2164 mg calcium in there and only 197 are present. so we need to add 1967 mg, or just a little over 1 teaspoon of egg shell powder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I'm starting to understand a bit more. I also want to go out tomorrow and take a look at schultze's book to get a different view from pitcairn...However she's totally against cooking meat from what I've heard, and I know I wouldn't be able to serve completely raw... Ahh I see what you mean with the ratios now...now I know how to calculate it......did you make that recipe on nutrtiondata.com? I'd like to learn how to do that as well so that when I put in my ingredients altogether I can figure out how much of each vitamin and mineral the entire recipe contains..instead of trying to figure out each ingredient by myself...is that possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 yep, i made that recipe. it was just a quick example tho, nothing "tried and true". yes it is possible, and actually it's quite simple. let me see if i can [i]explain[/i] it as easily too. to analyze a complete recipe, you first need to "collect" all the ingredients. this you do by doing searches on the main page. there are thousands of ingredients listed, so make sure you pick whatever is closest to what you plan on using. obviously, if you want to calculate the nutrient content of a [i]cooked[/i] meal, you will need to pick cooked ingredients, not raw ones, but select the raw versions of anything you add uncooked. the cooking method isn't quite as important to pick, but keep in mind that braising something for hours will destroy more nutrients than browning it quickly in a pan or steaming it. once you locate your desired ingredient, pick a weight unit that will be simple to use for a recipe. you can enter fractions in the amount field later on if you need to to adjust. then click the "add to pantry" link to save your ingredient for combining into a recipe. do this until you have all your ingredients saved in your pantry. don't forget things like vegetable oil or flax oil or whatever you like to add for appropriate fatty acid balance. once you have all ingredients saved in your pantry, enter the desired amounts to calculate your recipe, enter a name for it and click the "analyze recipe" button. keep in mind that all recommendations on that website are calculated for human use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Thank you so much..this is actually alot more helpful than doing it myself... would I be paying close attention to amounts of other minerals besides calcium and phosphorus or as long as I'd have variety in the recipes its ok...? Where else can I do some research on which ingredients and combinations/amounts would be best for my dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 you are quite welcome. :) read chapter 3 of pitcairn's book, it will give you recommendations for amounts of vitamins, minerals and so on. if that isn't "definite" enough, you can also refer to earl mindell's book "nutrition & health for dogs", it has exact amounts listed in the specific chapters. i also highly recommend the "healthy powder" pitcairn describes in his book. personally i don't mix it into any recipes but give 2 teaspoons daily with a bit of cultured yogurt on the morning meal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 TDG I'm still really scared of not giving the right proportions of phos and cal to my dogs... I'm not sure if giving her two teaspoons of the healthy powder will solve the problem..for example I just used that website you gave me and calculated a made up recipe... I used 1 cup of chicken liver 1 cup of carrots 1/2 a cup of broccoli 1 tablespoon of flax seed powder 1 tablespoon of oil What I came up with was WAY higher protein than my dog needs (Pitcairn recommends 22.3 on average)...WAY higher carbohydrate (I know and I"m not even putting grains into that made up recipe)...and not enough calories...see what I mean its really hard to make a recipe that works? And like I mentioned I think pitcairn is fine in his recipes but he uses TOO much grains for me...so my question is, how do I start to plan out a basic recipe? Where did you start? Should I be looking for a nutritionist I can talk to? Sorry about all the questions but I'm quite serious about getting her off of kibble as much as possible in the future and I need to know what I'm doing first..right now I'm pretty much lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 keep in mind that the calculation page gives you only the [i]caloric distribution[/i] of a food in the pyramid graphic, not the actual percentage of nutrients. it's a little misleading, especially since any fat calories stand out so much since every weight unit of fat supplies almost 2.5 times the amount of calories than protein or carbohydrates. also keep in mind that this pyramid graphic doesn't take the moisture content into consideration [i]at all[/i], since water has no calories. so if you took for example a gallon of water and mixed a teaspoon of oil in there, it would display as 100% of the calories originating from fat, but you still have 768 teaspoons of water plus vs. one teaspoon of oil. don't apologize for asking questions, we all need to start somewhere. :) when i formulate a recipe, i like to use meat as 1/2 to 2/3 of the volume and grains (or other carb sources), legumes, veggies and fruit make up the rest. when i use more meat, i combine it with grains that have a lower amount of protein and vice versa. keep in mind that you are feeding a carnivorous animal and not livestock when you combine ingredients. roughly 50% of the diet of my dog is made up of raw meaty bones tho, so i'm personally not too concerned with feeding too little calcium. on the healthy powder: it is [b]not[/b] a calcium supplement, but the recipe balances the powder in itself, so it doesn't use up any extra calcium from the diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 So you're saying that its ok to give 2 tablespoons of healthy powder to each recipe and I shouldn't really worry about access calcium if I'm not feeding bones at all? When I usually buy a package of meat in the store, it'll come out to rougly 3 cups of meat...so I guess then I should use about 3 or 2.5 cups of veggies/other carbs and 2 tablespoons or the powder (roughly) for example? And if I am NOT using bones than what should I consider? I suppose that's when the healthy powder fills in the gaps or should I be looking even further calcium supplements? I phoned about 7 places today (alot of them vet clinics and holistic food stores) ...and they have NO nutritionalists...they hardly knew what I was talking about...they're like "Oh, you can read the ingredients on the dog food yourself"..I got so ticked I'm like "No sorry this isn't about dog food, I want to feed my animals a natural diet"... and when I was looking in the phonbook, their ads were saying "Yes our clinic does have an animal nutritionalist!" What a bunch of bull lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Word to the wise, don't bother calling the Nutritionists at Guelph, they once sent me some information slamming any homemade diet, however their bias was clearly marked on the Hill's letterhead they were using. :roll: Did you try the East York Animal Clinic? Our vet there gives us suggestions on what to add to the dog's diet, I don't know what their stance is on cooked, but they might be able to provide some information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Shenanigans..you mean Royal York Animal Hospital? I called them this morning...they said they don't have any nutritionists working there and they were the ones that gave me the number to Guelph...I called Guelph and they transfered me to some clinic there...they had no clue about home cooked diets so I called some local holistic stores around here...One I left a message at but they never called me back...I really want to feed my dog home food but I'm so paranoid about not getting the nutrient ratios right..and I have a Pit Bull..they are proned to hip dysplasia and other bone related problems..so are Chihuahuas... Anywho, I'm just gonna keep reading and seeing if anybody else can help.. If anyone knows any Toronto holistic nutritionalists..please please let me know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Hi there I do mean the East York Animal Clinic, it's at St.Clair and O'Connor. I'll post the URL, if you go to their holistic centre services you'll see that they do work on basic nutrition. You might want to give them a call. I personally recommend Dr. Cindy Kneebone..Dr. Paul isn't as user friendly as Dr. Cindy. :) [url]http://www.holisticpetvet.com[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Thank you shenanigans :) I'll take a look.... by the way, I'm from Etobicoke (East Mall/Rathburn)..and yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I'm on the other side of the world it seems. *sigh!* In the wilds of Scarberia. ;) I'm at 401/McCowan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajiesMom Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 wow I live close to you pitbulletta East Mall and Burnhamthorpe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Majiesmom..whoa that is close like neighborly close hah... shenanigans..ahh scarborough :) I have some nice friends from there..but yes..quite far lol.. OH and that reminds me..I called that petvet clinic and made an appointment for monday..only problem? 90 dollars for consultation...I'm willing to pay it but if anybody knows any other nutritionalists for cheaper around the Toronto area let me know... maybe I can save a few dollars lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 [quote]So you're saying that its ok to give 2 tablespoons of healthy powder to each recipe and I shouldn't really worry about access calcium if I'm not feeding bones at all?[/quote] you can either add the healthy powder as the recipe tells you, or feed it separately. 1-2 teaspoons to a small dog, 2-3 teaspoons for medium sized dogs and 1-2 tablespoons for a large dog. however, the healthy powder is [b]not[/b] a calcium supplement. it has just enough calcium in it to make up for the phosphorus content of the yeast and lecthin. so you still do need a way to bring sufficient calcium into the diet, regardless whether you feed the healthy powder or not. what i meant about my personal feeding regimen is that my dog gets bones daily, which have a high calcium content, so for me it is not of as much concern to balance boneless meals as meticulously as someone who doesn't feed bones. if you don't feed bones, you need to be on top of this or you risk severe health problems. [quote] When I usually buy a package of meat in the store, it'll come out to rougly 3 cups of meat...so I guess then I should use about 3 or 2.5 cups of veggies/other carbs and 2 tablespoons or the powder (roughly) for example?[/quote] you can add the healthy powder in any reasonable amount. it's just not going to bring any additional calcium into the diet to help you achieve a proper ca/ph ratio. for that you still need egg shell powder, bone meal, calcium citrate or something similar, unless you feed bones in sufficient amounts. [quote]And if I am NOT using bones than what should I consider? I suppose that's when the healthy powder fills in the gaps or should I be looking even further calcium supplements?[/quote] the healthy powder does [b]not[/b] fill the calcium gap. it's there to supply vitamins and trace minerals and other nutrients, but it doesn't add extra calcium. it is only balanced in itself. [quote]I phoned about 7 places today (alot of them vet clinics and holistic food stores) ...and they have NO nutritionalists...they hardly knew what I was talking about...they're like "Oh, you can read the ingredients on the dog food yourself"..I got so ticked I'm like "No sorry this isn't about dog food, I want to feed my animals a natural diet"... and when I was looking in the phonbook, their ads were saying "Yes our clinic does have an animal nutritionalist!"[/quote] there are very, very few veterinary nutritionalists. in most cases the "best" you can find is someone who got an education on animal nutrition sponsored by one of the "big players" of the pet food industry, which is hardly unbiased. if you are truly concerned, you can check out monica segal's site, [url]http://www.monicasegal.com[/url], or check around for a holistic vet with a background in nutrition in your area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Thank you again TDG... I'll be looking around to see if I can find any more besides the one I booked an appointment with..I also found this website..its EXACTLY what I am looking for but I don't know whether I should trust it or not [url]http://www.petdiets.com/[/url] <--- is more than 90 bux even GAH :o have you ever heard of it before? Anyone else have any suggestions that lives in the Toronto area (nothing TOO expensive please I'm a student I have no money :oops: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Greetings! Here is my first post on this board... First off. Unless your dog is super immune weak, and or sick, and or on Chemo'. then there is little to no chance that they will get sick from Bacteria in raw food. We have 8 dogs, and are up to about 5000+ raw food feedings the past 10 years, and this doesn't count the many dogs I fed raw in shelters I worked at, and friends dogs etc, with no problems what so ever. You name it we have fed it..ground, whole, chunks etc. So fresh it had a pulse 10 mins ago to rotting seal washed up at the beach. Our dogs thrive. Second consider that you dog uses its tongue for toilet paper AND LIVES. Yes your dog can eat poop and not die. Wolves, and coyotes eat deer, and caraboo etc poop all the time. The Dogs whole system is built for handling raw meat, and veg from its pointy, sharp cutting and tearing teeth (no grinders) to their stomach with powerful digestive juices, and short digestive tract. BTW: Dogs, Wolves, and Coyotes are related by a common single ancestor, and they have evolved to fill a specific area, and all share the ability to eat fresh or carrion. If in doubt look up Samonella in dogs in Merks Vet manual. Also case in point a few years back the dogs and Cats living in Walkerton Ontario Cananda also drank the same contaminated E-coli water as the towns people. And while many people where deathly sick, and some even died..the vet hospitals in the area reported only a single budgie bird was sick with runny poop. BTW: I used to work in the commercial pet industry, and I'd never go back to feeding kibble ever. The choice is yours, and if you have questions let me know. And no I'm not trying to selling anything. Cheers! R. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 [quote name='pitbulletta']Thank you again TDG... I'll be looking around to see if I can find any more besides the one I booked an appointment with..I also found this website..its EXACTLY what I am looking for but I don't know whether I should trust it or not [url]http://www.petdiets.com/[/url] <--- is more than 90 bux even GAH :o have you ever heard of it before? Anyone else have any suggestions that lives in the Toronto area (nothing TOO expensive please I'm a student I have no money :oops: )[/quote] you are quite welcome. :) take it step by step and day by day, over time you will learn more and become more comfortable about feeding your dog. i started out by adding a tablespoon or two of cooked meat and veggies to my dog's kibble and have progressed to feeding about 75% raw in total. the remaining 25% are cooked items, leftovers, a favorite brand of dog biscuits, training treats and a little bit of holistic kibble mixed with yogurt as a "cereal style" meal in the morning. as for [url]http://www.petdiets.com[/url] - i do not think it is a particularly trustworthy site. some of their information has massive flaws and is quite biased towards commercial products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I just have one more question for this post for your TDG..before I finally shut up about it lol.. When I go to the nutritionist on Monday..what sort of questions should I ask her? She charges 90 bux per half hour...so I don't think I'll be able to go into debt about it... Like I said, I just want a weekly meal plan for my dogs that are nutritionally balanced and natural...because at the moment, I don't think they are....should I ask her to make a weekly plan with me? OR is that something that nutritionists don't do in consultations? I'm wondering how it will go considering I have never been to one before, and what I am actually paying for..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Yow! Sorry to hear about the cost. Our vet appointments usually cost $60.00 average, but I guess it's different than consultation. And usually among other things we talk about the dog's food as a matter of course. Anyhow, I hope your visit is helpful...it better be for 90 bones! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 60 bux sounds more appropriate..I hope they're not trying to rip me off..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 [quote name='The Mongrel Hordes'] If in doubt look up Samonella in dogs in Merks Vet manual. [/quote] If I didn't have personal experience to draw from, I would, but thanks for the suggestion. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Well I've decided that I simply can't afford 90 bux at one vet's clinic for a consultation...what if I needed various opinions from other doctors? I'd be broke by the end of the month..plus my mom's yelling at me :oops: So I've decided to go along with some of the recipes from Pitcairn's book, and I've made a few of my own, so I've got quite a few now that I'll be rotating around weekly between my own and pitcairn's. Here's an example of one of my own (I used that website you gave me TDG, as a guide for the mineral requirements)... 80% lean ground beef - 150 grams brocolli - 100 grams brussel sprouts - 100 grams carrots - 100 grams parsley - 100 grams sweet potatoe - 200 grams 1 and 1/4 teaspoon of bone meal and recommended daily supplements from dr.pitcairn's book This is enough for a 55 lb dog for one day...the only thing is that it contains a bit too much carbs and TOO much proteins..so I can never really even that out no matter how much I try... I've already got like 5 recipes made up and its always a bit off in those areas..also...my calorie total is always UNDER 700 which is odd...that's a bit low for a pit bull's intake so I dunno..but if I add more stuff than the protein and carbs are WAY too high...if I take stuff out then the calorie intake is TOO low..I'll probably never understand that but I think I'm getting the hang of it more at least Anyways, I'm always welcoming more comments and educational shtuff :) Thanks again for your help TDG and everyone else...:) your knowledge is very much appreciated..if you think I'm doin somethin fishy please let me know...for the benefit of my dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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