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AKC Dobermans


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Guest Anonymous

In looking for an AKC doberman pinscher pup, I notice that some breeders have very big doberman dogs. I mean the parents are bigger then what the akc standards calls for and yet they are registered dogs. Maybe they will not be able to show these dogs if they don't meet the standards, but should they be allowed to register puppies as akc acceptable? Even the best breeders who show their dogs get the occasional large puppy that they will not keep. People may like big dobermans, I understand that, but to knowingly breed continuously away from the standard, and be able to register them as akc acceptable has me confused. Should this be a concern when looking for a quality pup, that some breeders are not breeding for perfection in their dogs? I know a lot of other factors like health and temperament are also important, but what about size?

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You should probably go to the Doberman Pinscher Club's public education website here [url]http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/[/url] and read the "Warlock myth" portion. If you're considering getting a Doberman, it would be a good idea to read all of the information on the public education website.

There's also an exhibitor's and breeder's education website as well as info on finding a responsible breeder and how to buy a Dobe pup. All of those things have links from the main DPCA website at [url]http://www.dpca.org/[/url]

Responsible Doberman breeders do not breed for oversize Dobermans although there can be Dobermans who do go over the standard size within a responsible breeder's litters. Genetics isn't an exact science so, stuff like that can happen. Oversize isn't a DQ in Dobermans but it is a fault and will be penalized accordingly.

There are two big commercial Doberman breeders and a host of puppymillers who breed oversize Dobermans and try to use their size as a "selling point". Run far away from anyone who does that!

The AKC is simply a breed registry, that's it. Any pup who is sired by two AKC registered parents will not be denied registration. The AKC does not control the breed standards, the breed parent clubs do. The breed parent clubs can and do occasionally modify the breed standard but, they cannont modify it to the extent to make the AKC deny registration to a dog with a fault like oversize if it was born of two AKC registered dogs. Goodness knows, the Dobe club tried very hard to get the AKC to deny registration to albino Dobermans and the AKC refused. The best the AKC would do was to add a "Z" to Dobes descended from albinos so that everyone who looked into a dog for breeding would know that they needed to stay away from "Z" dogs.

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[quote name='FearedDogFan']Sounds like the AKC isn't as good as I thought it was. Sounds a little corrupt to me! :o[/quote]

No, it's not that they're corrupt, it's just that they're simply a purebred dog registry. Conformation shows, earth dog trials, lure coursing....all that stuff is part of the "service" the AKC offers (and makes money off of) to help breeders evaluate their dogs and, hopefully, help people make an honest evaluation of whether or not their dogs should be bred. But all of that is in support of their primary purpose, being a dog registry.

Using the albino Dobes as an example, the AKC stated that the first albino (who was a genetic mutation that all other albinos are descended from) was born to two AKC registered Dobermans. She was a Dobe and thus elegible for registration.

A dog having AKC registration is NOT an indication of the quality of the dog. Heck, puppymillers AKC register their dogs! All an AKC registration says is that this particular pup was born to two AKC registered dogs of the same breed. (There are exceptions to that....dogs given an AKC registration when they come in from another country that the AKC has an agreement in place with.)

The AKC offers a lot of activities that we can participate with our dogs in but, bottom line, they're a breed registry.

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[quote name='StarGaze']I know next to nothing about Dobies, but I [i]thought[/i] AKC conformation breeders like them bigger, almost like the bigger the better (althought obviously not like Danes, not to the extreme). I heard or read that somewhere a couple years ago. It's not true?[/quote]

There is no disqualification for size in Dobermans but, there is a range of size in the standard for both dogs and bitches and (supposedly) any dog/bitch under or over that range would be faulted to the extent that it is over or under that range. (As any other dog/bitch in the ring would be penalized for their faults/deviations from the standard.)

That said, many breeders do tend to "push" at the top of the standard size.....especially if they hope to special the dog.

Whit is in the dead center of the stanard size for bitches yet, when she's on show grounds she usually looks a bit on the small side. Not a lot smaller but, the bitches being shown are usually a little bigger.

Mason is on the small side for a male Dobe. I did show him in conformation for a while and it was very frustrating. Even though he was within the standard, he took a bunch of reserves and major reserves. Judges kept telling his handler how nice he was and how wonderful he would be when he matured. He was 3 years old when the last judge said that so he sure wasn't gonna get any bigger! Mason's 26 1/2" at the withers. His sire is just slightly over the top size wise for males at 28 1/2". If I stand Mason next to his sire the difference, only 2", is rather dramatic. Mason's sire outweighs Mason by quite a bit too so somehow Mason winds up looking a lot less "substancial" than his sire. I think it all boils down to the fact that you want your dog to make an IMPRESSION on the judge and it's difficult to "stand out" if your dog is on the small end of the standard.

That's why breeders try to "push toward the top end" size wise. of course, the nicest pup in the litter may be middle of the standard or, like Mason, toward the low end. A middle of standard size would still do very well showing. A dog toward the small end of the size would probably not have a show career.....it would just be too difficult and costly to finish.

The spread of sizes isn't big. For bitches it's 24" to 26" and they call 25 1/2" ideal. For dogs it's 26" to 28". As you can see, Mason is 1/2" over the minimum size for a male but he was consistently one fo the smallest dogs in the ring when showing.

Breeding isn't an exact science. Breeders can't say to themselves "I think I'll breed a litter that produces dogs that are exactly 28 1/2" at the withers. Surprises also happen. There's an absolutely huge Dobe bitch being shown, she's taller at the withers than Mason's sire is....she's actually taller than most of the males in the ring when she's competing for BOB. That is a fault BUT, aside from that fault, she's really lovely. Wonderful angles, planes and movement....a truly outstanding bitch. Aside from the size fault, she's a fabulous speciman. So, when a judge sees her in the ring yes, he sees the size fault but all dogs have faults. Should she be denied the win simply because of her size? Not unless that fault is more "serious" than the faults the other dogs in the ring have. (All dogs have faults!)

Anyway, where size gets into extremes, that's where the "warlock myth" came from. [url]http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/PECWarlock.html[/url]

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i relly dont know how think going in AKC, i'm FCI bu here if sombody wants to breed his dog he has to go for a least judge test. some breeds need HD test and some two excelents in diffrent shows, some breeds will breed only when they get there ch titles. any breed and his catogories.
but all of them has to get judge test a least ones to get promesion to breed there dog.
if the dogs sizes are according to there max \ min standart there is no problem to continio to breed them. each breeder has his oun ideal dog in mind.
but if the dogs above the max size how there breeder got the premisions to breed them?

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[quote name='Irena']i relly dont know how think going in AKC, i'm FCI bu here if sombody wants to breed his dog he has to go for a least judge test. some breeds need HD test and some two excelents in diffrent shows, some breeds will breed only when they get there ch titles. any breed and his catogories.
but all of them has to get judge test a least ones to get promesion to breed there dog.
if the dogs sizes are according to there max \ min standart there is no problem to continio to breed them. each breeder has his oun ideal dog in mind.
but if the dogs above the max size how there breeder got the premisions to breed them?[/quote]

In the USA anyone can breed any dog. No testing is requried by the AKC or any government or quasi government body aside from possibly a DNA test for the AKC if the sire is a frequently used sire.

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thats stuped! they have no control on breedings, that way so many fualts are made and for what?
isnt the main idea of the breeder is to bred for better dogs?
a least anybody check the pupys for pepper? or if both perents AKC there puppys otonaticly ok? :-?
can sombody breed two dogs completly wrong, awful, sick from birth, ugly ( i cant think of more bad things in a dog :) ) and still get pepers for his puppys?

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Yes. All and AKC registration certifies is that both parents were purebred. Ideally, breeders are supposed to sell pups that either don't conform to the standard or don't have the temperament to be shown on a "limited registration", which usually means a spay-neuter contract from the breeder. As we all know the world of dog breeding is far from ideal.

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Guest Anonymous

Thank you Nancy for explaining the actual purpose of the AKC. FearedDogFan made a comment about maybe the AKC is "Corrupt"? The organization isn't, but maybe some people are using it to their advantage to sell dogs are such as pet stores and puppy mills are. All you need is an uneducated buyer, and you can rake in the bucks at the animals expense, and keep these mills going. They have to be making a profit or they wouldn't be doing it. And like Irena, I agree that the AKC has to be aware of how their organization is being used and abused even though it is only a registry. That simply providing a piece of paper that says AKC on it keeps a whole lot of unscrupulous people in the dog business that shouldn't be, and dogs being bred in horrible conditions that should never of been. From what I read, the AKC never promotes or reccomends any breeder, because like Nancy said, it is only a registry. However, it is promoting the sale of puppies, just by issuing a piece of paper that says AKC to buyers that are not aware or don't care keeps the "corruption going." __That's what they need to fix.(ps love the site) Joann

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Yes, some folks (back yard breeders, commercial breeders and puppymillers) do use AKC registration of their pups as a "selling point" to folks new to the dog world. Someone new to the dog world just doesn't really know that AKC registration does not define the quality of the pup.

If I were looking for a purebred pup of a breed that I wasn't familiar with I wouldn't go through the AKC. I'd go to the breed parent club. All breed parent clubs have standards for their breeds. (Those are available on the AKC website.) Those standards can help you make an evaluation of how well the sire and dam of the pup conform to the standard.

Most breed parent clubs also have a Code of Ethics. Now, I'm not saying that every breeder who belongs to a parent club is a paragon of virtue but, you can pretty well eliminate the commercial breeders and puppymillers. You might still find some back yard breeders who belong to breed parent clubs. The next thing to do is to check the recommended health testing for that breed. If the sire/dam of the pup have not had the recommended health testing then I'd look elsewhere.

Another thing to consider is what has the breeder done with the sire/dam of the pup? Have they shown in conformation, obedience, agility, herding, whatever venues would be suitable for the breed in question. If they have done absolutley nothing with their dogs then, why did they breed the litter??? Many folks may think their dogs are the most wonderful dogs on the face of the earth.....I know mine are! A responsible breeder doesn't have the "luxury" to do that. If they do that then they're "kennel blind" and can't see their dog's faults. It's impossible to breed to improve the breed if you can't even see your dogs faults. (Breeders can and do love their dogs but they must be able to and acknowledge their faults!) Showing in some venue at least gives the breeder to get other educated opinions on the quality of their dogs. In conformation, it would be the judge's opinion. In obedience or agility, then it would be can the dog qualify and title in those events.

In the USA a person looking for a pup has to do some work if they want to be sure that they're getting a good quality pup. Yes, it's a bit of a pain in the neck but I can't see the people in our country ever handing over the decision to breed to any organization. It goes against our country's fundamental thoughts on "freedom".

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