Food/possssion agression or a problem with alpha status?

[Seijun]

For a long time now I have been having problems with my 4-5 year old husky shepherd mix. Whenever I approach a food item or an object that she has, she growls at me, with her ears airplaned and pointing slightly forward. Sometimes she slowly wags her tail as an added warning. I can put my hand on whatever she has, she growls more, sometimes nips, but never bites. However, if I force her to give it up, she will sometimes become VERY angry (depending on how important the thing or food was to her) and sometimes go as far as trying to attack or bite me. She has attacked me twice, not severely, but she intended to harm me. I have been told this is a sign that she thinks SHE is alpha, and she is punishing me for taking her stuff. I am tempted to agree, as I have read that food/possession aggressive dogs will often bite when you try to touch their things, but alpha dogs are more likely to bite after you take it away as punishment to you. One problem though, if she really does think of her self as the alpha over me, why does she act so submissive to me at ALL other times (except when around food or highly coveted possessions)? When I say she acts submissive to me at all other times, I mean that she keeps her eyes averted, ears back, licks lips, licks my chin, and will roll over to expose her belly. It

[kendalyn]

I'd say you have a major problem if your dog has already attacked you with clear intent to harm.

Your first step is to put her in some major NILIF training. She does not get ANYTHING she wants without doing something for you first. And I would not allow her the privilege of having her toys available to her at all times. Put them up until she has some designated play time (which she works for as well).

Second step is to teach her the "leave it" command. I don't know how hard this will be for you because of her aggression. The way I taught my dog was by holding a treat in my hand with my fist closed and letting him sniff it. I said leave it and waited until he turned his head. As soon as he turned his head away I gave him the treat. I progressed like this until he was very good at it and turned his head away as soon as I said "leave it". Then I did it with my hand open and then with the treat on the floor. Now I can put treats on his paws while he is laying down and he won't touch them until I say OK.

You can also start feeding her by putting her in a down and giving the kibble to her by hand gradually. Maybe by tossing the kibble to her across the floor to begin with.

This is all made harder because she has bitten you in the past. You need to be careful because obviously you don't want to be attacked again. I think drjeffrock has a dog with previous food aggression problems. You might want to PM him for more tips. Or maybe he'll see this thread and give you some pointers :-)

[Seijun]

"She does not get ANYTHING she wants without doing something for you first."

I already do that, and she lets me touch her toys, it is the food and NEW toys that she has a problem with. She doesn't care about her old toys and never plays with them anyway. Unfortunately, the new toys are the pieces of junk that she finds in the ditch when we go for a walk. I can usually keep her away from things like that, but every once in a while we come across an old glove or something that she gets first and then it's a fight to seperate it from her. It is the same way with a lot of the food. She finds scraps of food or dead animals that are hidden in the grass. She gets them before I have time to do anything. The other day there was a hotdog by the road. It was just sitting there, uneaten, untouched. I was afraid that it might be poisoned so I took my dog and tried to tie her leash to a tree so I could get rid of the hotdog. She knew what I was doing though and she growled everytime I tried to put my hand near her collar. In the end I just looped the end of her leash around the tree. I give her food and treats frequently from my hands, and I make her sit for everything. I can safely put my hand in her food bowl because she is so engrosed in eating she doesn't even notice me. If the food is in my hand to start with there is rarely any problem either. But if the food completely leaves my hand and goes to her, or she gets the food or item before I can, then she automatically considers it hers. Again, her reactions are very dependant on how good the food or new toy is.

"Second step is to teach her the "leave it" command. I don't know how hard this will be for you because of her aggression."

and the fact that she is a food hog... You should see her before dinner. She drools buckets and every other thought is cast out of her mind. It is a struggle to get her to listen to commands when their is food in front of her. I will have it in my hand, I tell her sit and she does, but she comes after the food as soon as I so much as open my mouth to tell her to come. And that is when the food is in MY hand. It's a whole other story when the food is just sitting there on the ground. There is absolutely no way I could get her to listen to my commands if the food was in her sights. I have also been advised to teach her the trade method. Teach her that giving up what she has will get her something even better in return. I don't know of anything though that she might consider better than a rotten deer leg or a dirty work glove. Anyway, she doesn't like the trade method to start with. I have tried it. She had a piece of cloth that she was EATING, and I tossed her some eggs. She left the cloth for the eggs, and when I took the cloth away, she still became angry even though the eggs had been better than the cloth. She didn't care that the eggs were better, she wanted BOTH things, not just the better of the two.

I am very worried that this might be a problem we won't get over. She is IMENSELY hard to train. She is very, very smart, but her attention span is almost zero. Oh, and for the first 3-4 years of her life (which she spent with the original owners, and later an animal shelter) she was never taught a thing, not even how to sit.

~Seij

[kendalyn]

She may be to the point where you can't do this alone. You might need to consider calling in a professional to help you out. This is a problem you really need to take care of for safety's sake.

What will she do if you hold a treat in your hand with your fist closed around it and hold it out to her? Will she bite you to get at it? This is the first step to teaching leave it and if you cannot do this part without getting bitten then you for sure need a professional trainer.

Also you should have her on a leash while you're training. Maybe you cuold do it after she's just eaten so she won't be really hungry.

I know what you mean about finding something on a walk (like an old glove) and wanting to take it home. Buck does this to. But if I tell him to leave it, he will. This is the point you should be at eventually.

[Seijun]

I can put food in my hand and she won't bite, she will try to get at it but stop and sit when she can't get to it. If it was something like rabbit meat though (her FAVORITE thing) She might try to bite. I have never tested her for that though. I keep her on a leash when training. When I train her for food aggression I keep her tied to a post so that if she gets mad and goes for me I can get out of the way. I would LOVE to take her to a proffessional trainer, but she does not ride well in a car at all, and I do not have any extra money for a professional trainer.

I am going to try feeding her a hothog from my fingers, keeping most of it concealed in my fist but letting her eat the bit that shows. I have heard that this helps, it teaches the dog to rely on the owner to provide the food even when the food is right there in front of their nose.

~Seij

[imported_Cassie]

[quote]When I train her for food aggression I keep her tied to a post so that if she gets mad and goes for me I can get out of the way.[/quote]
:o oh boy....wow...no wonder your dog is guarding favorite items. Your dog does not trust you and finds you to be unpredictable...there are so many people who screw up dogs this way. Can you imagine if you were with a species you didn't understand and they tied you to a tree and took away you valuable items...stealing items from you?? this is called survival...your dog does not trust you with its favorite or new favorite items...you have to gain your dogs trust. Put your self in the dogs position, in the dogs eyes you cannot be trusted
kendalyn has given you some wonderful advice...the NIFIL policy is a wonderful training tool. Your dog has to earn every thing it gets and it sees where its resources are coming from...preparing a meal make your dog sit before setting down the dish...believe me it works...
Give your dog some thing better in exchange for the valuable resource it already has...for instance why not some raw hamburg, or cooked meat with a wonderful aroma...then if the item your dog was guarding is safe...once you have given a better food item...give the valued object back...this will show that you are not there to "steal" every thing from your dog. Then later you can move on to teaching your dog "leave it"...play fetch with your dog ending the game with the dog giving the fetch toy back to you.
Positive training teaches a dog to trust you...success builds confidence removes confusion.
I adopted a Rottie which was very dominant and wouldn't let me take any thing from her when I first adopted her. Lucky for her I did not try any harsh training methods...I taught her to "trust" me instead of fearing me and thinking I am going to steal objects from her. I taught her that I am a share items....I also adopted a half starved Dobie which was on the run...he was not good at "sharing" his objects at first either...with positive training he has no reason to feel I am to be feared...this goes for my other 4 dogs as well...I own 6 dogs.
kendalyn is correct in suggesting you should seek the advice of a behaviorist before this esculates further. Go to some one who practices "positive" training only with no "negetives"....you need to learn to gain your dogs trust in you. A behaviorist can also teach you about your body language and how your dog is interpreting it...you could be coming across as being threatening etc.

I didn't mean to be harsh...but, this is a situation which can be easily rectified with proper positive training...some people have this weird idea they have to "dominant" their dog...and when the dog does not submit in every regard then it must have assumed "alpha" basis. Trainers are now learning that you do not have to "dominant" a dog to make it a good dog...just show the dog the proper behaviors which will bring the dog pleasure...all species will repeat an action which will bring rewards...think about when you were a child...which teacher did you learn the most from...the one who came in which would spank the child who did wrong and was scary...or the teacher who was fun to be around and praised for doing right and redirected the wrong action to a proper action.

[Seijun]

I guess I should have mentioned that I do not tie her up very often, only when she has something I STRONLY suspect she will physically fight me for.

"Give your dog some thing better in exchange for the valuable resource it already has"

What if I don't have anything that she thinks is better? There is absolutely nothing that would get her to leave a dead rabbit or a deer leg. She likes to eat bones too. She crunches them up nicely so I don't worry about that making her sick. So I get the bone away from her, after a lot of snarling and growling. Then what? If I giver her a treat, wouldn't that be rewarding her for her bad behavior? Yet, if I take the bone away, it only reanforces her idea that I am 'evil'. When I give the bone back without a treat and without tossing it away, she just guards it harder. And I don't have anything that she likes better than bones either. Also, she only gets to eat bones when she finds them in the grass before I have a chance to steer her clear of them.

When we are out for walks I always make her sit before I alow her to go check out a bit of trash or a plastic bottle. If she finds something she likes and I will let her have, I get her to give it to me, I then give her a treat and give the item back. Part of the reason she doesn't trust me is because I do take things from her without returning them. I don't like doing it, and I try NOT to do it, but honesly, I don't want her eating dead rabbits, rotten meat, shoelaces, plastic, and half the other things she finds. I can't exactly give it back when I know that she will eat it and it has the potential to make her very sick.

*sigh* she doesn't play fetch either. In fact, she has never showed any desire to please me or other humans, like other dogs do. She treats me as alpha most of the time, but she is still very independant. It is almost as if she exists in her own little world. I am only there to give her food, water, walks, and wrestling when she feels playful. She will greet me with a lick or two on my chin, but other than that, she shows me no affection at all.

Oh, and I know that being dominant isn't everything, but she seems to think it is. Even though she treats me as alpha, she will often turn our wrestling games into challenges. She will go from playful, happy wrestling to a suddenly very serious dog. Her expression changes, she begins to bite hard and ignor my commands to be gentle, and I have to stop the game immediately. I didn't used to do this until the day she bit me so roughly that it tore the skin on my hand.

~Seij

[imported_Cassie]

I just want to add thaat possessive aggression is unrelated to the relative social rank of the dog. A submissive dog can and will successfully fend off a dominant animals challenge over the object of interest.

[quote]There is absolutely nothing that would get her to leave a dead rabbit or a deer leg.[/quote]
First off, how is she getting dead rabbit and deer legs???? I live in the country where people hunt alot...I rarely find dead rabbits and deer legs... :-? do you hunt and leave carcasses in your back yard?? this sounds so strange. The simple way around this is to keep a basket muzzle on your dog when you are out walking to PREVENT the dog from picking up these undesirable objects.
[quote]She likes to eat bones too. She crunches them up nicely so I don't worry about that making her sick. So I get the bone away from her, after a lot of snarling and growling.[/quote]
Why even give her bones when she is going to defend them?? why not give the dog kong bones filled with treats and the holes covered with cream cheese or peanut butter...this should keep her busy, and theres no need to take it away and if you have to at least she probably won't be as possessive over it ...don't give her objects she will become possessive over.
[quote]Then what? If I giver her a treat, wouldn't that be rewarding her for her bad behavior?[/quote]
Until you teach your dog "off" and "take it" or "leave it" this is the best option for you so you won't get your self bitten.
[quote]Yet, if I take the bone away, it only reanforces her idea that I am 'evil'. When I give the bone back without a treat and without tossing it away, she just guards it harder.[/quote]
Basically what you are going to be trying to do in the future is to show your dog that you control all resources and every thing she gets has to be earned...this is why the NIFIL policy works so well and its positive training ...you also have to be consistant...the behavior is not going to change over night...take baby steps and use positive training to gain back your dogs trust.
[quote]And I don't have anything that she likes better than bones either. Also, she only gets to eat bones when she finds them in the grass before I have a chance to steer her clear of them. [/quote]
Don't give her any bones and clean up your yard...I am really starting to question the cleaniness of your yard and surrounding area??? why are there bones in the grass??? this sounds unrealistic and a little questionable...your going to have to keep your area cleaner and bone free...I'm starting to picture you in your house eating raw animals tearing off the flesh then throwing the bones out in the yard.

[quote]When we are out for walks I always make her sit before I alow her to go check out a bit of trash or a plastic bottle.[/quote]
:o ok, now I think you live by a garbage dump...why do you let the dog check out trash??? :roll:
[quote]If she finds something she likes and I will let her have, I get her to give it to me, I then give her a treat and give the item back. Part of the reason she doesn't trust me is because I do take things from her without returning them. I don't like doing it, and I try NOT to do it, but honesly, I don't want her eating dead rabbits, rotten meat, shoelaces, plastic, and half the other things she finds. I can't exactly give it back when I know that she will eat it and it has the potential to make her very sick. [/quote]
Keep a basket muzzle on the dog when out walking and stay out of the dump...where do you live??? this is crazy...you either live in an area where people are living like cave men...or you live by a dump...don't walk your dog in dump areas, keep a leash on the dog with a halti...or if you insist on letting her loose on walks and your afraid she will pick up garbage...keep a basket muzzle on the dog.
You really should find a better place to live...I am getting the creeps just thinking about it...arent you afraid with all of those old bones and carcasses laying about you may attract other pests and maggots??? yuk. :-?

[drjeffrock]

I would put that dog on a super hardcore NILIF training program. I strongly suggest you see a professional trainer to help you out. If things keep going the way they are headed, you could get seriously hurt.

[imported_Cassie]

[quote]Oh, and I know that being dominant isn't everything, but she seems to think it is. Even though she treats me as alpha, [/quote]

First, I just want to advise you...don't get so caught up in this so called "Alpha" therory...they have done more studies on wolves than on our own domestic dog...our dogs are not wolves. There are biologists who have actually studied our "domestic" dogs in the wild...in Africa domestic dogs run loose in villages...these dogs do not pack up...they live semi solitary lives. To treat our dogs as if they were wolves is wrong...it takes all the enjoyment out of dog ownership if you center your understanding around this therory. I have owned dogs for over 40 years...I have done all that "alpha" stuff...and I have learned the error of my ways. Our dogs learn from "positive training" and learn by reward systems not by punishment and domination punishment and domination will lead to a confused dangerous dog.
Most problems with our dogs stem from the dogs being spoiled (no rules in the household) and the dog is let to do as it pleases...then the day comes when the owner steps out of line in the eyes of the dog...the dog will then rebel. Dogs need rules to live in a household....but, so do most animals. I could use the same training for a killer whale as I would for my household dog. Think about a child who has no rules in a household the mother & father just ignore all the outragoeus outbursts of the spoiled child....the parents have no rules...the child wants a new bike, he gets it...wants an ice cream, he gets it...then one day the parents start to set down rules for the child...well, what do you think is going to happen...the child is going to rebel and perhaps lash out at his parents. Children brought up in homes with rules and get bikes and other gifts only when they are earned learn to appreciate things and learn to work for them.
What I am trying to get at, is we as humans try so hard to figure out our dogs...when they rebel we automatically think...OMG! he thinks hes Alpha... :roll: just enjoy your dog and try not to confuse your dog...there are alot of confused frightened dogs out there that live in homes where humans treat them as if they were a wolf pack...a confused dog is a dangerous dog.
[quote]she will often turn our wrestling games into challenges. She will go from playful, happy wrestling to a suddenly very serious dog. Her expression changes, she begins to bite hard and ignor my commands to be gentle, and I have to stop the game immediately. I didn't used to do this until the day she bit me so roughly that it tore the skin on my hand [/quote]
You are encouraging alot of your problems with your dog. I do not wrestle with any of my dogs...they can easily become too aroused. A freind of mine was seriously injured by his APBT while playing...it got out of hand and the dog became much too aroused...it can happen. some times the dog may have had enough of the wrestling match and basically is telling you enough...I would not wrestle with the dog any more.
If your dog is laid back and doesnt enjoy human companionship...perhaps try to learn to live with the way she is...or try to encourage nice strolls away from the dumps with perhaps the basket muzzle on so she won't pick up any thing "unusual" :wink:
I have owned dogs which were very aloof...it was just "their" own personality...we had alot of nice "shared" times together just not as personal as most of my other dogs.

[Seijun]

I guess I should explain my living conditions a little better. I live in the country, I take me dog on LEASHED walks on the back roads and in the woods. I NEVER let her run lose. The local farmer likes to hold calf auctions and he buys the sick calves that are left over at the end. He never treats them for any of there illnesses. Naturally, they end up dying. He loses on average, anywhere from 1-4 cows a MONTH. He dumps them in the woods, they rot, and stray dogs scatter their bones everywhere. People hunt here too and they leave left over deer parts lying around all the time. I live near a twisted back road, about 1 small animal gets hit on this road every 2 weeks or so. People also dump trash on this road a lot. So much that it is impossible to walk without running into some. These conditions are not my fault. My dog gets a hold of bones and stuff when she finds them in the grass, in the dirt, etc. The grass in never mowed so my dog sees most everything before I do. The only trash I ALOW her to get into are things like shoes and plasic bottles, she likes to play with them, not eat them. Plasic itself isn't a big problem either, unless it happens to have food residue on it. In that case, she may try to eat the plastic. It is impossible to predict what pieces of plastic may or may not have food on them, so I can't easily steer clear of the ones that do. When she gets a bone, if it is a small one, I will attemp to take it away. If I can get it from her without too much trouble, I reward her and give the bone back because as I said before, I do not like taking things from her permanently and sending the wrong message. Smaller bones are safer for her so I usually let her have them back. Seriously though, taking a walk with this dog is like running an obstacle course.
I keep my yard clean, it is not my fault that everyone else around me are a bunch of litterbugs and slobs. I guess I should also let out that my dog is a wolfdog. I talked with some experts on wolfdogs, and it is generally agreed that she is probably about 50% wolf, but about 3 or four generations removed from a pure wolf. Unlike pure dogs, my dog DOES care about pack rank.

"some times the dog may have had enough of the wrestling match and basically is telling you enough"

heh, she only gets wriled up when I try to stop the game MYSELF. She is a lot better than before though. In the past it would take 10-15 minutes to get her to settle down when she got too wild. Now, I can get her to calm down in only a minute or even a few seconds.

She would not stand for a muzzle of any sort. She freaks when something as amall as a bit of vine gets tangled around her head or muzzle.

~Seij

[Guest Anonymous]

My first piece of advice is to stop all wrestling games with this dog. Don't play them at all.

Secondly, you need to put a muzzle or halti on when you go on walks to keep her from picking up harmful items. You can either train her to 'Leave It' OR you can control her through a halti or muzzle. If you can't do either of these things - [quote]She would not stand for a muzzle of any sort[/quote] then I think there's a power imbalance between you two, and you need help in sorting it out. Your dog should never physically fight you, nor should you need to tie up your dog for your own protection.

Go back and read your own posts - all of your language is about what the dog Wants to do and what she will Allow you to do. It should be the other way around. Learn about, and practice NILIF. Please get professional help, otherwise I fear you will be hurt by your dog.

[drjeffrock]

Hey Seijun,
Have you contacted a trainer yet? When I adopted Dex, he had some issues with aggression and dominance. Here are some of the NILIF training methods I used.
First of all, I would keep Dexter on a leash inside at all times. He was not allowed to do ANYTHING without me taking him to do it. If I was taking a shower or making a sandwich I would either put him in his crate or tie him up to a doorknob. Basically when inside he was on his leash, or he was in his crate. This might sound kind of harsh, but you will need to make some BIG changes to the way you are handling your dog.
Dont leave any toys, food, bones on the floor. You do not want your dog self-rewarding (meaning he can decide when he gets a treat, plays with a toy, etc.) You want your dog to learn that it is YOU who decides when its play time, time to go on a walk, time for dinner.
When dinner time comes, make your dog earn it. This means no more putting her food in bowl and letting her dig in. I would suggest teaching your dog obedience while feeding dinner. You could teach your dog how to hold a down-stay. I did this by putting Dex in a down-stay. I would put a little bit of kibble from my hand while petting him. Then I would get up and leave the room for a few seconds. If Dex got up from his sit-stay as I was leaving the room, my girlfriend would correct Dex with his leash and put him back in his down stay in the original position. Obviously this was a little easier with two people. Also, if I was leaving the room and Dex got up, I will grunt, shake my head no, and ignore him. Inevitably he began to understand what I wanted from my facial gestures. If he got up, I would ignore him until he got back into his down-stay. The second he would go back down, I would smile and give him some more kibble. When I first adopted Dex, he was completely out of control. Now he can hold a down-stay for a good 5-10 minutes when I am in the other room.
Do you have a kennel? If so, make your dog sleep in it for the first couple weeks at night of NILIF training. I am kind of on the fence when it comes to letting dogs be on couches, but in your case I would def. not ever let your dog on your couches. What kind of collar do you use on walks?
Sounds like your dog could benefit from some training to walk on leash too. Your dog should not be picking things up off the ground. Heck, when I take Dex out and he has to go, I even make him pee on my terms. He is NOT allowed to pull like crazy until he finds his favorite spot.
I would not wrestle with your dog either, at all. Also, be aware of subtle forms of domination by your dog. If you are hanging out on the couch watching TV with your dog on-leash next to you, and she tries to sit down on your foot or against your leg, a gentle correction and repositioning of her would def. be in order.
If your dog comes up to you to be pet, or wants to play, make her do something before getting a pat on the head, even if its just a sit. Dont just pet her whenever she wants you to.
If your dog does not have basic obedience inside, chances are she wont behave outside. Also, if you want your dog to do something like sit and you think she wont do it, dont command her to do it.
All this NILIF doesnt mean that you cant play with your, give your dogs treats, and have fun. It just means that you do it when YOU initiate it.
Please go see a trainer. They can make up a training plan for you better than any advice over the internet.
I have seen NILIF used countless times, and I have seen results in EVERY single case, most of the time within the first couple days. Training your dog will be a lot of work, as its a 24/7 job, but when you see results it will be worth every second and $$$ you spent on training. Good luck!

[Seijun]

I do make her work before [b]I[/b] give her anything [b]myself[/b]. She does have a kennel, which is where she lives. She is extremely hyperactive so she cannot ever come inside. I leash walk her twice a day, 1-2 hours each. She sits for food, she sits before coming out for her walk, she sits before I give her toys, and she is not allowed to play with me until she settles down FIRST and then I tell her we can play.

"What kind of collar do you use on walks?"
A very strong one (nylon) :) Why do you ask?

~Seij

[kendalyn]

[quote]She is extremely hyperactive so she cannot ever come inside.[/quote]

She may need more exercise also. Why not change her walk to a run alongside your bike or something?

It would be good if you could convert her to being an inside dog. You will have much more of a bond and will be able to control resources more effectively.

[Seijun]

Well, I consider it a walk, but we do a lot of running too.

Nope, no inside for her. She has a lot of energy, and she is EXTREMELY destructive and inquisitive, she would be getting into everything. There is absolutely no way she could come inside. Besides that, it would be too hot for her and I have an indoor cat, (my dog has very high prey drive, cats = food to her).

I know some of you may say that with proper training, she could become an inside dog, but there are many dogs who are not good house dogs. My dog has a lot of husky in her. I have seen huskies make good house dogs, but in general, huskies are outside dogs, whos high energy makes them very difficult to contain indoors.

~Seij

[kendalyn]

I do agree that some dogs are better being outdoors. You'll have to work harder though at getting these problem sorted out.

I really think you need a professional though.