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I have a problem....


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Guest Anonymous

I am hoping someone can help me. I am not even sure where to start except from the beginning.

On June 30 of last year I adopted a 7 week old rotty/lab mix puppy from the local pound. I had been looking for a dog for a while and we had decided we wanted a puppy. I walked into the puppy room and there she was, all by herself all poofy and cute. I went back 3 times, alone once and twice with my kids. We took her out and played with her, she didn't growl or bark and wasn't afraid of the kids. I thought these were all good signs.

About a week after we adopted her she started nipping everyone. I really didn't think anything of it at first. I realized the nipping was getting out of control when I couldn't even play with her with out her knawing on me. I went back to the pound and asked for a place where I might find information about dogs and one of the clerks told me about the circumstances of Myah's arrival at the pound. She had been 4 weeks old when they found in the woods with her brother but he had been adopted they day after they got there and because of over crowding she had been alone in a cage for two weeks. I really got worried when I heard this because I had read that a dog taken away from its mom too soon can have a lot of issues.

I went to the library and found some books on dog training and started working with her. She has done so well for the most part. She took to housetraining really well. We have only had a handful of accidents since the day we got her. She learned sit, stay, down, fetch heck I have even managed to teach her how to catch a ball. But I have a couple of really big problems. She likes to growl. The vet calls her a piranah puppy. She doesn't like anyone touching her neck sometimes. I have a real problem with removing and putting her collar back on. She growls real loud to the point I am afraid she may bite me. I can't touch her feet to clip her nails. I have to have the vet do it and even they muzzle her first. I have looked for puppy classes but I have been unable to find anything close to home. I live in a very rural area.

My biggest problem happened two weeks ago Sunday. She was lying in my husbands lap in the recliner and they were both sleeping. My youngest son who is 7 plopped down in front of her to pet her and put his face up to her. This isn't really anything outside the norm in my house. All three of the kids play on the floor with her. I don't know what happened. But she growled once shortly and quietly, I looked up to see what was going on and as I glanced at them I watched Myah turn her head slowly and I thought she just nipped him. But the next thing I know Brenden is bleeding holding his hand over his eye. Well I will skip all the drama in the middle there and just leave it at my son got one small stich in a small cut between his eyebrow and his nose and had another small cut on his forehead. He has forgotten the incident already and so has Myah as far as it seems to me and they are again best of friends. But I am feeling so guilty and I don't know what to do.

I love my son obviously and I also love my dog. I promised them both that I would take care of them to the best of my ability and I honestly feel that Myah would be unadoptable if I returned her to the pound. I am terrified that she will bite again and next time it won't be something so minor. It just seems like such a waste. I am not ready to give up yet unless everyone on the planet tells me this is a lost cause. My friend seems to think that our biggest problem is that she sees only me as the alpha, because I am the only one that makes her listen or works with her. My husband dotes on her like a child. I have no idea what to do now and the guilt is really weighing me down. I feel like an evil parent for not removing the dog immediately from my home. At the same time I have a responsibility to Myah too.

Is this fixable?? What can I do?

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Well my heart goes out to you, you are indeed in a tough situation. Let me say first and foremost, the ABSOLUTE SAFETY of your children comes first. No way around that. Even a little nip from Myah as unacceptable. There is a whole lot of teaching that needs to be done, for Myah, for hubby, for you, and for the children.
Sounds like Myah feels her status is higher than the children and perhaps yours as well. There have been many discussions here about demoting the dog and Myah certainly needs to be demoted. No more lying in dads lap on the recliner, that put her physically and mentally 'above' your son. Dad MUST get on board with this, there must be a united effort to calmly, gently but firmly let Myah know that she is at the bottom of the pecking order. There are wiser heads than mine on this board who have had experience with aggression who I hope will be able to offer you some concrete tips.
Myah has been learning and deciding since you brought her home what her status is and what she can get away with. She will continue to escalate HER reactions, this needs to be stopped TODAY.
Are there any behavioural (sp?) trainers you can call? Someone you can work with one on one? Someone who is able to help you teach Myah proper behaviour? NOT someone who will use harsh tactics mind you, this will only make things worse.
Myah needs to be worked with every single day, by you, dad, and the kids. She needs to know that good things come from all of you but only if she is calm and collected. Is she aggressive about her food? Perhaps hand feeding by you at first then by dad and eventually by the children, after she has demonstrated that she is able to be calm and accept the food from your hand without any aggression or jumping about.
Your children must learn to heed any signs that Myah is stressed or appearing aggressive. Again, their safety is paramount. This first incident was minor in the grand scheme of things but the next time could be devastating or deadly. It is up to you and dad to make sure there is no next time.
Myah would NOT have couch, bed, or recliner PRIVLEDGES until she clearly knows her status in your pack.
Myah would not eat until she clearly shows that she understands that YOU control the food.
Can you muzzle Myah on your own? Might have to do that and calmly work on desensitizing her to being touched ALL over her body, when she accepts it, she gets a smile, a treat, etc.
Do you have a crate? They can be invaluable training tools, it would also be her den, her safe place, and the children are NOT allowed to go near her (at first) while she is in it.
Again there are people here who can go into much more detail and provide far more info than I can.
Lastly, I'll repeat from the top, the ABSOLUTE SAFETY of your children comes first. If there is any chance that Myah will bite them, you may have to make that hard decision to either take her back to the shelter, or AS A LAST RESORT, have her put down. I do not say that lightly and hope it does not come to that but the hard truth is that not EVERY dog can be saved, not EVERY dog can adjust to living in a family situation. She had a rough beginning with improper or zero socialization as a baby and it may be too much for her to overcome.
Best of luck to you, your family and Myah.

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Excellent advice Carolk9s.
I also have a pup from the pound that may have been seperated from his mother too early. He used to mouth too much and still licks excessively but that I can deal with. We were able to overcome most of his issues but despite being raised with the dogs in our household he still doesn't get on well with dogs not of our family. Reinforcing the pack order by demoting and starting to make him sit before feedings and then hand feeding (so he knows you provide the food and he has to do something so you will do so) may help. Lots of excercise, play and snuggles too and keep up all of your excellent training it helps a lot and he is doing so well for such a young dog too. If you can get a behaviourilist to come out that would be excellent, your pup is young, they'd probably have good results. Good for you for continuing to work with him. Best of luck.

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Guest Anonymous

Thank you for your advice... I had a long discussion with my family this evening about the advice that was given here today. We have decided to give it a try and see if we can all overcome these problems.

I hope I didin't give the impression that I wasn't concerned about my kids safety. I just tend to over react and have been afraid that maybe I have been the last two weeks. I seem to be the only person really worried about what happened. Which I find disturbing now. I mean shouldn't our vet be concerned??

She has been fitted for a muzzle. It should be here this weekend. There are none of the large pet chain stores around here, no store seems to carry them so I ordered it from the vet.

We started working with her tonite... we started by taking away her toys and chews and everyone took turns feeding her by hand. My hubby wouldn't let her in the chair with him and she was basically confined to the living room and kitchen. She had to sit and be still before anyone would leash her to go outside and we stopped letting her just run in and out before us. Or at least we are working on that now. She is pretty strong. It may be my imagination but she seems a little stand offish tonight, she almost seems to be ignoring me.

I feel a little more hope tonite than I did last night when I typed this... It doesn't all seem bad to me. Thanks.

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Thank you for your advice... I had a long discussion with my family this evening about the advice that was given here today. We have decided to give it a try and see if we can all overcome these problems. [color=red]Good, it is great that hubby is with you on this as it is critical that ALL humans outrank the dog. Also good for him to understand that deviation from a united effort could very well mean that Myah will have to go. [/color]

I hope I didin't give the impression that I wasn't concerned about my kids safety. I just tend to over react and have been afraid that maybe I have been the last two weeks. I seem to be the only person really worried about what happened. Which I find disturbing now. I mean shouldn't our vet be concerned?? [color=red]I do not think you are overreacting; Myah deliberately drew blood on your child. There are many who would not give her a second chance; she would be dead by now. I am not necessarily against that viewpoint though I prefer cautiously exploring other options first. [/color]
She has been fitted for a muzzle. It should be here this weekend. [color=red]Ok, some pointers for using the muzzle. First and foremost, do not OVERUSE it. It is hoped that the muzzle is just to allow you to help Myah overcome her discomfort and concerns about being touched in a safe manner. It is hoped that the muzzle is not a long term answer but a short term solution. I am sure you know this but I must say it anyway, never leave the muzzle on Myah without direct supervision. NEVER EVER EVER. Introduce the muzzle to her slowly. Make a silly happy game out of it. Do not sit there thinking

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Guest Anonymous

The muzzle news doesn't bode so well... I am not sure that I mentioned before that we have to use the muzzle at the vets. I can't clip her nails myself because she won't let me (my own fault it appears now), so I take her into the Vet to have it done. They don't take any chances with her either. I will print up these suggestions and hang them on the frig as a reminder to me. Hopefully we can get around it. I found some alpha training guidelines on another thread. I have also printed them up and put em on the fridge.

I have a question about keeping her on a long leash in the house. Does this work?? Myah doesn't always come when she is told and I have often wondered how to fix this. The thread I read I beleive the person had her on a 6 ft leash. I was wondering how this works when your dog is tied to you all the time? Making her come I can understand... as for the blocking the walkways in the house I am unsure.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Oh also... Can anyone recommend a good training book?? There are so many books out there. I found a few at the library that had a lot of similar content to many of the things I have been reading here about pack behavior and alpha training but there are so many methods I was unsure what was the current right way of doing things.

The only picture I can seem to find of her at the momment is the following one. I have tons of puppy pics but I seem to have misplaced the disc with her now pics.


[img]http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=193d432a-debd-7bcd-1816-140168d32078&size=[/img]

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[quote name='Oh Clueless 1'] She doesn't like anyone touching her neck sometimes. I have a real problem with removing and putting her collar back on. She growls real loud to the point I am afraid she may bite me.[/quote]

[quote]I can't touch her feet to clip her nails. I have to have the vet do it and even they muzzle her first. [/quote]

You are dealing with dominance issues. Your dog has a rottweilers disposition. That is not to say that they are naturally aggressive dogs but the majority have the tendency to become leader of the pack if they are not raised with a firm hand. They will take over.

One dog grabbing, nipping, biting at another dogs neck is a form of dominance. This is why she is not allowing you do have any access to these areas. The fact that she is not letting you do this is telling me she has no question in her mind that she rules the roost in your home. What she says goes. I don't feel that your dog is aggressive at this point. I feel that your dog has dominance issues. You need to get this under control or you WILL be visiting the hospital at some point down the line treating a pretty severe bite. I don't think this will be a small one. She's warning you at this point not to cross your boundries. This can lead to aggression once this gets implanted in your dogs head.

[quote]
My biggest problem happened two weeks ago Sunday. She was lying in my husbands lap in the recliner and they were both sleeping. [/quote]

This has got to stop. Plain and simple. Higher rank dog always gets to be the dog on top. By him allowing this dog to sit, lay or even have its front paws on him or anyone else in the house he is telling this dog in its own language that she is above him in rank. You are playing with fire if you allow this to continue. Because this dog has dominance issues she should not be able to have access to furniture including the bed. Lower dog on the totem poll lays on the floor. Alpha sleeps on the furniture or gets to be anywhere at an elevated surface. She eventually will become territorial over these things if she isn't already if you don't get a hold on the problem.

She should have to work for every single privliedge she gets...that includes her dinner. She should perform a task for everything whether it is a sit, or down. She must hold that position till being released... period. If she doesn't, she doesn't get the privilidge. (sp?) You can take it away and give it to her when she does the task properly a few minutes later.


[quote]Is this fixable?? What can I do?[/quote]

This is DEFINATELY fixable hun :D No doubt in my mind. Your dog is still very young and trainable.

I highly suggest you visit my site which I will leave a link at the bottom of this post in my signature line. I have many professional trainers, behaviorists even a woman with a doctorate as an animal pathologist at my site. These people have all dealt with aggression and dominance in their dogs or dogs that they foster. Some of these people deal with aggression DAILY in other dogs. (Including myself) We have a [b]LOT[/b] of knowledge and advice to offer you. I promise you, this can be handled!

I really hope to see you there.

(Edited : If you have problems getting in...I have been informed by my host that there are problems with the server right now....The link is correct so if you can't get in just give it some time. I will come back if things aren't fixed in awhile and let you know whats going on.) :wink:

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I recieved a message that they will be temporarily changing our domain name from [url]http://dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi[/url]

to [url]http://dogden.proboards30.com/index.cgi[/url]

For some reason the host has turned off our server connection with the company that runs our board and they may be filing legal disputes if it is not fixed within 24 hours. Just giving you a heads up. One of these links should work!

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Hey Clueless,
Welcome to the forum! I want to start off by saying that I think its great that you are working on fixing your dogs behavioral problems.
There has been some great info given in this thread, hopefully I can add some myself.
My younger dog Dexter has been quite a handful since I adopted him. He was aggressive towards people and even bit someone. My training methods w/ him revolve around the principle that nothing in life is free. You will probably hear this term often. Basically, when we adopted Dex he thought he won the lottery. He got to play with another dog, get two yummy bowls of food a day, and thought he could just self-reward all day long (be it playing with our other dog, getting a toy, etc.)
My first step was to keep him on a leash all day long. If I was watching TV, he was in a down-stay next to me. If I was busy making a sandwich, I would hook him up to a door knob or something. I did this for a good couple of weeks or so.
Second, Dex is no longer fed out of a bowl. He has to EARN his food. I'll put him in a down-stay and toss him some kibble. Then I will go in another room, come back a minute later and give him some more kibble for continuing his down-stay. If he got up, I would correct him by putting him back in the down-stay. If he refused, then I would just turn my head, and grunt out of displeasure. He would realize that if he did not down-stay, the food disappeared. With lots of time and practice,I can have him down stay for about 10 minutes or so, without him moving. Before starting to train him, I thought it would take an act of God to make him stay still for more than two seconds.
When it was time for bed, we put him in his kennel. Christine and I did this for about 3 weeks or so.
When we go on walks, even if he has to pee real bad, he is NOT allowed to pull on the leash to get to the nearest grass. It is on MY terms that he gets to go.
Keep in mind, that certain methods work wonders on some dogs, and not on others. I would def. suggest you find a behaviorist in your area (preferably certified) who could help you. They could tailor-make a plan for you to follow and help out.
Muzzles can be very useful if used properly. While many people think negatively when they see a dog muzzled, I will think the opposite, that the owner is actually responsible. Carol makes a great point about overuse. Myah is a beauty, and I look forward to hearing about her progress.
KP- I look forward to checking out your site!

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Guest Anonymous

Thanks so much for your responses and I will definately check out your site KP...

DrJeff... I am still looking to see if I can find a behaviorist locally. So far no luck. I am in a pretty rural area. But on a good note our town does have a K-9 unit and I am going to call them and see if they can help me or referr me to someone who can. My vet wasn't much help in that area. The closest kennel offering classes was in the next county.

I have SOOOOO many questions... I think I mentioned I found some Alpha training information and also alot of info about the nothing in life is free.

My questions are:

1 If I already have her to the point that when I call her she will automatically sit and look to me for release command, do I still have to make her perform another "trick" for kibble??

2 Should I use treats as a motivator?? I worry that she won't work for me if I don't have any food on me.

3. Come is my biggest problem with her (in a giving orders sense). She will always sit or down when I tell her but only 50% of the time will she come when I command her. When should I start using a leash in the house. I feel bad a little because I have dumped a lot on her in one day. She is definately being a little rebelious today. She hasn't come on command at all. I don't want to over do it but is she going to get the hint that things are changing??

4 Should she be allowed to play with her toys at all and if so what should she do for that priveledge and for how long should she be allowed to play with it?? Like her rawhide chews, she loves to just knaw on one for hours.

Umm thats all I can really think of for now... I am sure I will have other questions later. The other things I have read seem more straight forward. Oh Yeah what about water?? I have read control her water bowl but then the vet says I should never restrict her water supply... Not sure what to think

Thanks again for your help

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1 If I already have her to the point that when I call her she will automatically sit and look to me for release command, do I still have to make her perform another "trick" for kibble??
[color=red]I would mix that up a bit, sometimes praise her just for sitting and looking to you, sometimes ask her to lie down or briefly stay etc. Maybe in time you can even teach her to shake, give you her paw. [/color]

2 Should I use treats as a motivator?? I worry that she won't work for me if I don't have any food on me. [color=red]I say USE WHAT WORKS, if treats work, by all means continue. Now, so your dog won't weigh 300 lbs, :lol: you can start decreasing the # of times she gets a treat. In the beginning, every time she does an asked for behaviour or an appropriate behaviour, treat her. Then gradually treat her every other time, then every third time, etc. [/color]

3. Come is my biggest problem with her (in a giving orders sense). She will always sit or down when I tell her but only 50% of the time will she come when I command her. When should I start using a leash in the house. I feel bad a little because I have dumped a lot on her in one day. She is definately being a little rebelious today. She hasn't come on command at all. I don't want to over do it but is she going to get the hint that things are changing?? [color=red]Oh she's getting the hint. I have never used the leash method but I have heard great things about it. You can start using it right now. This will especially help with her coming on command, she almost has no choice if she is leashed to you and she will learn that not only is she expected to obey, but good things happen when she does. Praise and treat for that good behaviour. At first, you might have to praise her for just looking your way when you call her to come, this in fact may encourage her to come all the way to you. Sometimes it is baby steps that do the trick. [/color]

4 Should she be allowed to play with her toys at all and if so what should she do for that priveledge and for how long should she be allowed to play with it?? Like her rawhide chews, she loves to just knaw on one for hours.
[color=red]I do feel she should have play time and chew time. Ask her to sit, giving her a toy is her reward. Let her play with her toy for awhile, get a yummy treat and ask her to give up the toy. Has she shown any aggression over her toys? If so, definitely keep the kids away, at least for now, until that is GONE. If she has been good, give her a chewie. Again if you have a crate, this would be a wonderful time to let her chew in peace in her crate. However, if she has shown ANY aggression associated with her chewie's, use caution, keep the kids away until her reaction can be strongly predicted to be calm. While she is leashed to you, you can play a short game of take the toy, give up the toy for a treat. Same with the rawhide. [/color]

Umm thats all I can really think of for now... I am sure I will have other questions later. The other things I have read seem more straight forward. Oh Yeah what about water?? I have read control her water bowl but then the vet says I should never restrict her water supply... Not sure what to think
[color=red]Personally, I would not restrict her access to water UNLESS she has shown aggression over it. I would let her see you and dad refresh her water and ask her to sit before putting it down. I think that will help her know that again, humans control EVERYTHING[/color].

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Guest Anonymous

4 Should she be allowed to play with her toys at all and if so what should she do for that priveledge and for how long should she be allowed to play with it?? Like her rawhide chews, she loves to just knaw on one for hours.

[color=red]I do feel she should have play time and chew time. Ask her to sit, giving her a toy is her reward. Let her play with her toy for awhile, get a yummy treat and ask her to give up the toy. Has she shown any aggression over her toys? If so, definitely keep the kids away, at least for now, until that is GONE. If she has been good, give her a chewie. Again if you have a crate, this would be a wonderful time to let her chew in peace in her crate. However, if she has shown ANY aggression associated with her chewie's, use caution, keep the kids away until her reaction can be strongly predicted to be calm. While she is leashed to you, you can play a short game of take the toy, give up the toy for a treat. Same with the rawhide. [/color]

[color=#444444]She is not aggressive with her toys.. or at least she has never growled at the kids for touching or taking a toy from her. I have told the kids not to play tug or be overly physical with her from the beginning. Myah likes to play ball and fetch stuff. The only difficulty is sometimes getting the item back. :wink: She will come back and sit at your feet or even put her head in your lap but not always give up the toy. I haven't figured out yet how to get her to "drop it". Sometimes she will sometimes not.

Gotcha on the water question[/color].

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Nothing I'd really disagree with here :D Thanks Jeff! I'd love for you to check it out. My site is only about a month old so we are growing but steadily so far. It stays pretty busy during the day over there though. Those people are yackers. :D I've known many of them for about 2 years now. We kind of found eachother on another message forum and stuck together and move around finding stuff like this to help with. Thats when I decided to finally put this board together.

I think muzzles can be a very positive step in an appropriate direction if needed. I also agree it is possible for them to be used improperly definately. There are certain styles that I would go with such as the wire basket muzzle over the mesh or nylon style.

As for the water. I agree. Don't withhold water. What I do is if my dogs are around I don't let them charge the bowl as I'm putting it down. That is the only time I make them work for it, is when I'm re-filling their bowl and they want water. I make them sit before I set it down and give them a few seconds to wait it out. Then I release.

Do you feed at certain times or do you free feed? (keep food out all the time?)

As for the toys.... pretty much the same idea. It's not necissarily because she would be aggressive over these things, its reinforcing the fact that you are alpha. It's not really about living around her issues...its about her living around your rules. In order to become alpha she needs to learn to look to you for guidance and to know that there are rules that she must abide by...not the other way around. As someone on my site once put it, becoming alpha is not a training session, it is a way of life.

With my dogs they must perform a task before they get the toy to play with. That is their *reward*. I don't necissarily give them a time limit with them but just so that they stay interested in their toys I usually will play with them and the toy for awhile and take the toy away while they are still ready to play...instead of when they get bored with it. It is a way of not only building their play drive and keeping it up but associating the fact that you are alpha as well. You choose when the play begins and when it ends. I then put the toy up until I'm ready again later.

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Guest Anonymous

I think she is officailly really peaved with me...

She hasn't had an accident in the house in months.. she goes out last around 10pm and goes out at 6am. Not been a problem. Well she was lying next my my bed on the floor because I had her on the leash... She kept waking me up trying to jump on the bed which I don't understand either because she knows she is not allowed on my bed. I pushed her off one last time about 45 minutes ago and she proceeded to just pee all over the floor and not a little pee either a HUGE puddle. I am so bent with her at the momment. I can't believe she did that. Didn't even bother to squat or anything.. Just let it flow. And it smells horrible... She has always been so good potty wise. UGG!! I scolded her but didn't change anything I am doing.

We feed her twice a day... around 7am and 7pm. I have always left the water out. If I am putting the bowl down either food or water I would make her sit and stay until I say OK. I have started feeding her by hand now... and keeping some of her daily food in my sweater pocket for treats.

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[quote name='"Oh Clueless 1"']
2 [color=red]Should I use treats as a motivator?? I worry that she won't work for me if I don't have any food on me[/color].


Treats can be a great training tool. I use them with Dexter. But, he def. does not get them all the time. Sometimes he will get a pat on the head and a good boy (a lower-level reward.) Sometimes he will get nothing, just a smile from me. I feel as though it is good to keep your dog guessing. I try to find the lowest-level reward that will work most of the time. Dex is a firecracker, and I am still working on having his attention on ME. His highest level treat, is a cut up hotdog. His lowest is a smile from me. If you do use treats all the time, I think their value tends to decrease. They will start to expect it.

3. [color=red]Come is my biggest problem with her (in a giving orders sense). She will always sit or down when I tell her but only 50% of the time will she come when I command her. When should I start using a leash in the house. I feel bad a little because I have dumped a lot on her in one day. She is definately being a little rebelious today. She hasn't come on command at all. I don't want to over do it but is she going to get the hint that things are changing?? [/color]


I have a couple exercises that helped me with getting Dex to come, these were done off-leash. I dont know much about teaching "come" with a leasb on. What I would do is have some kibble in my hand, along with some change. I would let Dex notice the kibble in my hand, and have him follow me a few feet. Then I would throw the coins down on the floor (Dex would think they were kibble.) As I threw the coins done, I would sneak away 10 feet. As Dex would be staring at the coins in contempt I would say "Come Dex" or "Come". He would come trotting to me and I would give him some kibble out of my hand. This kind of taught him come and to stay more focused on me. Another exercise is I would hold some kibble in my hand and turn w/ my back faced to Dexter. I would lean down and say "Come." And he would come to the front of me to find some kibble or a pat on his head. Another important training tip I learned was this: If you have any inclination that you dog is not going to follow whatever command you give her, dont say it!!! I know it is easier said than done. But if you keep saying come, come, come and she is not coming you are defeating the purpose.


[color=orange]4 Should she be allowed to play with her toys at all and if so what should she do for that priveledge and for how long should she be allowed to play with it?? Like her rawhide chews, she loves to just knaw on one for hours.[/color]

I usually dont leave toys on the floor for Dex. Since he is still in boot-camp training, I dont want him to self-reward at all. We play on my terms, which is every day :lol:


I would not restrict her water bowl, unless she is being aggressive over it.

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