Really dumb question about meat by products in dog food...

[imported_Cassie]

OK, this is really dumb...but, I am really curious...when they list meat meal, meat by products...basically anything that does not name the actual animal used...could this be horse meat??? I am curious as I was reading a horse magazine the other day and they were advertising some supplements for older horses with arthritis...it stated not to be used on horses being used for meat...I also am aware that its really expensive to cremate a horse or to use the body as land fill...I am just curious about this as I know that horse meat is used for some dog foods...but, of course you never see it listed on the ingredients....or do they list horse meat???

I think I have too much time on my hands or some thing.... :oops:

[DogPaddle]

Yes - "meat" can be anything. It has been reported that they use roadkill and the three D's so it would definately not surprise me that they use horsemeat.

[TDG]

in some cases there's definitely a possibility it's horse meat. here are the official AAFCO definitions:

"Meat Byproducts"
The non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs.

see where it says "from slaughtered mammals"? this means that the parts come from animals that are considered fit for slaughter for some purpose, they are not roadkill or diseased. they are labeled as "mammals" because they are not fish or poultry. so you could expect meat from pigs, goats, horses, rabbits, cattle, sheep, etc. or any combination of them.

"Meat Meal"
The rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

notice how the phrase "from slaughtered mammals" is missing here? your only limitation is that the tissue is from mammals - so not fish or poultry - but they did not have to be slaughtered. in this case roadkill, 4D etc. would fit the category.

here are a few more "generic" animal-source ingredient definitions for you:

"Animal Digest"
The material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed.

again, no hint at the fact that the animals were required to be "slaughtered".

"Animal Fat"
Obtained from the tissues of mammals and/or poultry in the commercial process of rendering or extracting.

this is a byproduct from the rendering process of "meat meal", see further up.

"Poultry Byproduct Meal
The ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcasses of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines, exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

this one is at least somewhat specific again, slaughtered poultry could be chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese etc., or a combination of them, but not road-killed birds or for example a load of dead seagulls someone had to dispose of.

"Poultry Meal"
The dry rendered product from a combination of clean flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts of whole carcasses or a combination thereof- exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, and entrails.

no reference to "slaughtered" poultry, but it does mention carcasses, which are usually what "animal bodies slaughtered for food" are referred to - if it were something that died otherwise, it would more likely be referred to as a "cadaver". so theoretically "anything" could be in there, but it's most likely just whatever is left over at the giant poultry processing plants.

the definitions for animal feed ingredients are very ambiguous and encompass a wide range of quality to protect the manufacturers, but the "legalese" is not very easy to understand for the end consumer.

generally it's a good idea to stay away from any "generic" animal source ingredients, be they byproducts, meals or fats, just to be on the safe side and because their quality and nutritional value can differ drastically from one batch to the next, which of course also affects the end product: dog food.

[imported_Cassie]

Thanks TDG and DogPaddle, I guess I was mainly wondering about this first because I co-lease a horse and I consider her a pet along with my dogs...and if they use "Pet" horses...wouldn't they possibly euthanize the horse at the barn then have the deceased "pet" horses picked up for the meat factory...so basically in the dog food some of the substance for euthanizing the horse is still in the meat...I had heard that they found this in "some" dog foods....I can't even think of the name of the substance...must be too early in the moring for me.

I am so glad I joined this forum, there are so many things I am finding out about dog food....I'll stick with my solid gold and wellness...oh another thing I change my dogs food every 3 months...the Vets I work with told me this is not wise..yet I have read that it is the best thing to do to keep your dog from building up food intolerances...am I right or the Vets...the Vets I work with said if you find a food that agrees with your dog stay with that same food for basically the life of your adult dog...then when he/she becomes a senior stay with the same brand and get a senior food??? that doesnt sound right to me...oh, and another thing they say is if your dog needs to loose weight (one of mine does need to loose weight) get a reducing diet food...I was going to just give less of the solid gold and wellness...the Vets told me my dog will not get the required nutrients she requires for her weight..the foods I am feeding do not offer reducing diets...at least as far as I know....at least they do not have them at the store I purchase from???
Once again thanks guys....you 2 really know your food. :wink:

[TDG]

the substance you mean is pentobarbital, and yes, a few years ago traces of it were found in some pet food brands. the FDA study was published, you can read about it here:

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/DFreport.htm
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/dfchart.htm

as for rotating between foods, i am a firm believer in it, not as much because of pets developing food intolerances but because i think that if one food has too little or too much of a particular ingredient/nutrient/substance and lacks another, it's more likely to even out over time if you feed different ones instead of just getting worse if you stick to the same brand year after year. and my dog clearly enjoys the variety as well, even if i supplement his food with a lot of fresh, raw components like fruits, veggies, dairy products, eggs, meats etc.

regarding different lifestages or diet foods, i say humbug. foods for different lifestages are an attempt of dog food manufacturers to make their products take up more shelf space, thus become more visible, so more people will buy their brand instead of that of the competitor.

a healthy, normal dog's eating habits are far different from humans, unless the poor animal has been so spoiled by its owners that its natural instinct got completely buried. dogs eat to fulfill an energy requirement and most of them don't care if they have to eat 4 cups or 3 cups or 2 cups a day to fulfill that need.

so say your dog is a bit overweight and to reach a desired target weight he should eat 800 kcal per day instead of 1200. let's assume your regular food has a caloric density of 400 kcal per cup. you would simply reduce the daily feeding amount to 2 cups from 3 cups and your bag of food would last a bit longer.

the dog food companies would rather sell you a (often more expensive) diet food that has 267 calories per cup but includes a lot of grains, fillers and fiber and tell you to continue feeding 3 cups a day and spending money. don't worry about the dog not getting enough nutrients, if he is overweight, it's more likely he got more than he needed from what he was eating before instead of not getting enough from a reduced ration.

most senior foods i find outright scary. yes, most older dogs are less active and thus require less calories per day, but they also have a harder time maintaining muscle mass and body tissue and would benefit more from elevated levels of essential fatty acids and other nutrients than decreased ones - yet most "senior" foods also have higher levels of grains and fillers than normal all lifestage foods.

most vets did not receive a terribly detailed nutritional training, and most of the courses that are offered are usually sponsored by companies like hill's or purina who just want to sell you a product.

[Black GSD]

IMO, the LAST person that should be trying to tell you how and what to feed your dog is the VET. Most know next to nothing about nutrition. And what they DO know they learn from kibble manufacturers! Why do you think they push Science Death?


I agree, if the dog is fat, feed them less. (And or exercise them more.)
Besides, the foods you feed are for ALL LIFE STAGES. Being fat is a "life stage" as is being "old". That is why they don't have "diet" formulas.

As far as changing food every so often? That is up to you. Some folks do and others don't. I have had dogs that ate the same kibble their whole lives and never had any issues. Have seen dogs that didn't have any "issues" UNTIL they changed kibble.

Just do what is best for you and your dog. If the vet doesn't like it, TOUGH. It is YOUR dog. The vet works for YOU.

[imported_Cassie]

Thank you TDG, that was a wonderful post. I tend not to agree with many of the food related topics that the Vets tell me....I don't say any thing out loud...but, I make my own decisions...I am just so happy I have this forum to post my questions that no one else can answer for me! the Vet clinic I work at pushes Hills and science diet...I looked on the bag at the ingredients...there was the horrible truth of the quality....preserved with BHA/BHT....that stuff will never get into any of my dogs belly's.

Thank you Black GSD, I like the name science death!!! :lol: I work as a receptionist at the Vet clinic and it kills me to have to sell these products to customer's who trust the Vet is selling the BEST food...people still tend to take word of mouth instead of doing research for quality pet foods....and no one that comes into our clinic knows how to read a list of ingredients on bags of dog food...or even on their own food...I was quite surprised the other day when I grabbed a box of cereal (I usually only buy organic cereals...but, this one looked so good!!!) when I got up to the cash as I was standing in line I was reading the list of ingredients...preserved with BHA/BHT...I was shocked!!!! :o they can slip this crap into our own food as well....I don't even want to think about what is in hot dogs!!!!!