Please tell me he is not typical???

[Doglistener]

Hi Kaleb

I will say this very slowly, The site you go into which is Adams does not specify one breed! OK so far therefore you use of the analogy BMW OR MERCEDES is rubbish because we are not talking about one dog.

Following OK so far? If he wishes to have a site that is dedicated to one breed or one concept then that is fine however in this case this site is inviting ALL in and suggesting it is a general site! them swiveling over and saying Ahhhhhh yes it is a public site but with private connotations. ie you can join the site you must promote Adams business.

I was castigated by a woman or I think it was a women called Flame, she said she had been to my site and that I had recommended aggression and vicious techniques.

It was so obvious the Katz had told her to say this and that the rest of the forum knew that she was lying totally and actually questioned her guess what her cooments were immedietley removed.

Just how stupid does he think people are?

I question his mental state and ability to converse or understand anything?

Let me tell you this will not end on this site I intend to castigate this man till he has the bottle to challenge me then if he wants a financiaL BET I will arrange it. I will pusue him till he faces me.

I am a personal trainer to 5 very large companies that also operate over in the USA I have been asked to come over their this year.........I therefore am happy to challenge whenever he wants. Remember I use no coercive methods no pain no check chains no E or Prong collars. Yet I can still control a dog whithin three minutes of meeting it and get it to walk to heel in that time both for me and the owner.

Please answer my questions re do you belive Katz's way is the right way?. please also understand I do not ask people to pay for my knowledege.

Secondly stop prostituting yourself for money .........Life and dogs are far more important than that.


As it happens I don't want his money but I do want his head.

Doglistener

[Guest Anonymous]

Vengence is MINE sayeth doglistener! :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes I think that dog listeners reaction is a bit extreme also. I have read all of the posts twice and I am still not sure what the beef is. Are you so extremely upset because you were banned from the forum or because of the training methods which are advocated? Regardless of what my opinion is, I think it was said by Kaleb that the forum which has you in such turmoil is NOT a public forum, and while you may disagree with the training methods (as you have every right to if that is your wish), as I understand them (using a prong and/or e-collar to extinguish undesirable behaviors and to correct for disobeying a LEARNED command) this is legal and practiced in the United States. There are many different methods used here.

I also don't agree with everything advocated on that site but I don't think I would ever want someones head because I disagree. I initially respected your passion but you are starting to sound a bit dangerous and obsessed. How do we know that you are not typing from a mental institution or prison :o :o ????????

[Kaleb124]

[quote name='Doglistener']Please answer my questions re do you belive Katz's way is the right way?. please also understand I do not ask people to pay for my knowledege.[/quote]

I do use some of his methods, yes. But I do not [i]only[/i] use his methods. I use a combination of methods depending on what dog I am working with (their temperment, previous training, age, etc).

[quote name='Doglistener']Secondly stop prostituting yourself for money .........Life and dogs are far more important than that.


As it happens I don't want his money but I do want his head.[/quote]

At least your priorities are right...NOT.

:roll:

[courtnek]

[quote]ignore the *bad*, praise/treat the *good*. If you praise the *good* and balance that with correcting the *bad*, the dog will clearly understand what is expected of him and will be a happy, well adjusted dog. [/quote]

On the whole I agree with this, however, how you correct the "bad" is just as important as how you reward the "good"...as I said earlier, coming home 4 hours after the dog has soiled your rug and sticking his nose in it, or screaming at him, will resolve nothing. A dog has to be corrected within a few minutes of the bad deed, or the correction loses all relevance. If you catch him in the act, a stern NO and then putting him outside will get through to him much quicker than yelling at him 4 hours later. By then he's
forgotten all about it. Add to that then when you put him outside, and he
does his business there, a positive praise session is warranted. He learns
that by doing as he is told, he will get praised and petted and that makes him happy. For the most part, they want to please. What I have found with
people (even myself) when helping them train their dogs is that they
are so aggravated by the bad that they find it very hard to praise the good
in a convincing manner. Knowing you have to clean that rug makes it hard to jump up and down and sound "sprightly" when he goes in the yard.
It's all about tone of voice.

Some physical correction is also sometimes necessary, but it never has
to be painful or fearful...just a reminder of who is boss. Freebee used to
bite as a puppy, with those little razor sharp puppy teeth...just play nipping, but all of my dogs have been trained to never allow their teeth to
touch my flesh. I may get flamed for that, but I personally advocate everyone to NEVER let the dog touch you with his teeth. It's very hard to stop, and can be dangerous, once they arent puppies anymore.

She was more persistant than most. I started with "keening" in pain, which at first got her attention, but 5 minutes later she'd be back at it. Then
I would tap her on the muzzle, and say NO TEETH!... and that stopped her for about 2 days....

So I fell back on pack training. The next time she nipped me, I pinched her ear with my nails (which is what mom would do to a persistant nipping cub..only with her teeth). She whined and backed off. After only three of
those sessions she stopped nipping, and I was able to rely on NO TEETH
from that point forward. Now if I hand her a treat, and her teeth come in contact with my fingers, she backs off and sits down, head down. She knows....but I never had to hurt her, smack her, scream at her...

I dont think much of Mr. Katz, or his training methods, but I think you will
find that what he is doing is not illegal, just not necessary and not good
training methods in general. You dont want the dog to live in fear of you,
you want him to respect you as leader.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='courtnek'][quote]ignore the *bad*, praise/treat the *good*. If you praise the *good* and balance that with correcting the *bad*, the dog will clearly understand what is expected of him and will be a happy, well adjusted dog. [/quote]

On the whole I agree with this, however, how you correct the "bad" is just as important as how you reward the "good"...

Some physical correction is also sometimes necessary, but it never has
to be painful or fearful.

So I fell back on pack training. The next time she nipped me, I pinched her ear with my nails
You dont want the dog to live in fear of you,
you want him to respect you as leader.[/quote]

You don't think pinching a dogs ear with your nails is painful? Why then, does your dog back off, and hang her head if her teeth come in contact with your skin? You don't think this is out of fear that you will pinch her ear again and it will hurt like hell? Try it on your own ear! Ears are very sensitive.

Sorry, but I find your training methods just as painful, if not more so, than using a pinch collar, because a dogs neck is tougher than it's ears.

Naturally, unless you are a very cruel person, you wouldn't use a pinch collar on a puppy, but you can *scruff them* like the mother dog or wolf would do and while it gets the point across, it does not inflict pain. I have seen mother dogs and wolves, coyotes etc. do this, but I don't ever recall seeing a mother dog, wolf, coyote etc. bite a pups ears! This could do serious damage to it's ear(s)!!

[kendalyn]

what exactly is scruffing?

[Guest Anonymous]

dear "another different guest",

i got the quotes from the "FAQ" page on the leerburg site. you can read the whole idiotic thing yourself, it's pretty much all in reference to PRIVATE dog owners who asked questions, not "working dogs with drives off the chart". go have a look for yourself and read it all carefully - i will link to the example with the bichon, but i guess you can scroll up and down the rest of the page by yourself to read the rest. [url]http://leerburg.com/qabehavioral.htm#leaving[/url]

i never said that any dog can be trained with purely positive methods, but even if you have to correct a dog it's not about "kicking him in the butt" or "bashing him on the head with a mop handle". that is barbaric and plain disgusting and i find it absolutely irresponsible that someone would put nonsense like that on a website that is accessible to the general public. i hold people like the owner of that website directly responsible for many aggression cases where people get mauled by dogs.

i've trained large dogs in the past myself and was involved in hundesport in germany, with excellent trainers who train working dogs as well as those of private owners. those folks are professionals, even if they have to resort to corrections they will not train an animal under the assumption that you have to beat it within an inch of its life to get a reliable working dog. these dogs obey because they adore their work and respect their handlers, not out of fear. and no, respect does NOT equal fear.

i'm not entirely opposed to physical corrections, sometimes they are needed, but again, severe beating or kicking or other reactional punishments do NOT belong in that repertoire. period.

[courtnek]

[quote]You don't think pinching a dogs ear with your nails is painful? Why then, does your dog back off, and hang her head if her teeth come in contact with your skin? You don't think this is out of fear that you will pinch her ear again and it will hurt like h***? Try it on your own ear! Ears are very sensitive.
[/quote]

No it did NOT hurt...pinch youself. It's a PINCH not a gouge. I was not saying I was squeezing her ears so bad that she was in agony!! And yes, wolves DO nip their pups on the ears when they cause pain to the mother.
And yes, she hangs her head when she comes in contact with my flesh,
because she knows she was wrong and SHOULD know that. It's not pain that causes her to hang her head, but the fact the she knows her teeth are not allowd to touch my flesh, and they did. Hanging the head is an apology
for something done wrong. She is not cowering, whining or in any pain.
She is just apologizing....and once apologized, she is given her treat and
praised. The teeth skinning was accidental, and she is praised for realizing it and apologizing.

and I HAVE tried it on my own ears, to guage the amount of pressure
necessary to cause a sensation, without any real pain...

and she SHOULD back off if her teeth come in contact with my skin..that was the whole purpose of the exercise...Do you have any idea how many
people have been bitten by dogs that were allowed to "chew" on them?
even as puppies? Once the teeth have met skin, and it is not stopped,
they have no way of knowing that other "teeth encounters" are not allowed....

[Guest Anonymous]

I haven't read the whole thing yet but I will say that with respect to the Bischon, he wasn't serious. The trainers on that site, especially Ed Frawley, have nearly zero patience for silly questions. They have nearly zero patience for pet owners actually. They are all about working dogs. I guess anyone silly enough to post on that site about not being able to control a 15lb dog sort of asks for a flip sarcastic remark. The same is probably true about the other posts. I will read them though. And no I don't think that such a sarcastic response is necessary but having lurked on that site for 2 years I can say that they don't advocate this. What you are seeing is a flip sarcastic response from an intolerant person. There are so many pet friendly sites I have to wonder why a person would post about a Bischon on a working GSD board. :roll: That doesn't excuse it, but you can't change some peoples personalities.

[courtnek]

and she is no longer "pinched" for this behavior. The NO TEETH command is enough. And as soon as I say it, she backs off and hangs her head.

The head hanging is a realization that they have done something wrong.
It's not a fear reaction, it's a knowledge that a rule has been broken.

I have NEVER hurt, abused, neglected or violated ANY of the many dogs I have had. and I honestly resent the fact that you think I have...

[Guest Anonymous]

:eek3: whoa, I guess it's my turn to chime in here...I'm so bummed I didn't know about this sooner! Again!? My gosh Adam must have really done it this time! I'm not surprised at all. Banned Ken huh? What? Did he just now buy his book or something?

I am a banned ex-member of Adam's forum. Infact I will admit one of the 15 he banned all at one time this summer. Kat I will also admit that only one of these people as far as I can tell are another of the 15 which, I could only tell by the post and the information in it which is why you probably already knew as well. Our website is down now so we don't talk much anymore. Although after sending this and wondering what the reply may accrue I may need to send in reinforcements. I have no idea who the rest of these guests are but I don't believe any other them other than the 2 of us have a post here now from what I can tell.

Let me give you all a little more info for you as to what happened as far as us getting banned though....

The 15 of us became friends and he said if we wanted to be friends, be friends somewhere else. So we did. Thats fine, no problem, his rules.

First! I will admit, SOME of us, not all, did have some fun at his site for a couple of days. Yeah it was trolling BUT even after he knew what was going on and who was doing what the trolling didn't get us banned and the nonsense did stop with still no ban...

We however did inform others of HIS slander and HIS defamation of character, about people he didn't even know and some that he did, HIS jokes, HIS cracks which were inappropriat to share. Much of that posted taken from his own writing. We infomed about the EM and PM system (which I will elaborate on in a minute). THAT (HIS own words!HIS own actions!) got us banned not the trolling.

I'm not sorry at all for that or anything I or any of my friends said to him. That was warranted and justified. That was why the 14 of us were banned. Not because we had some fun on his board...which probably didn't help...but because we had words with him. He couldn't handle us telling people the things he was saying about them. He couldn't handle the things we knew and were telling others and what we were doing was NOT defamatory or slander because it was all 1000% true and then some.

It was not right for the trolling, and I'm not proud of it. Some of those that got banned actually were only guilty by association and Adam and Katerina were aware of who was doing what. Half the people who were banned had left on their own accord and never returned.

I mostly sat back and laughed. I WILL admit reguardless, it wasn't right what we did. Hell, I'll even say "I'm sorry" because it riled up some innocent people and I am sorry about that. I've always had guts enough to admit when I'm wrong for something. You are right. What we did, did not justify it. I will be big enough and honest enough to admit that too and I won't even make an excuse as easy as that would be. I am not going to sit here and point fingers only in one direction which Adam and Katerina like to do. I will take responsibility for what I do.

I will agree to the FACT he instigated ALL of the hate people have had, and more than likely have and will have for him. You're right its pathetic that he sits and pouts about it like he's the victim. I've seen him do this too. He should be proud if that because actually he [b]really[/b] does take joy in p*ssing people off and getting under their skin. I think Ken could probably agree to that at about this point and many others probably will in the future once they get to know the real Adam Katz.

Adam has NO respect for ANY of the people who visit his own site. I have read numerous e-mail conversations between he and other members that they shared with the rest of us. Some of them about people. We passed around a lot of conversations he had. He is a very rude arrogant person....to say the [b]least[/b]. He doesn't care about his customers or their dogs. He cares about #1 and #1's bank account. People are dead on with his personality. Its funny this keeps coming up and people are finding this out for themselves and I agree, it's even funnier that adam doesn't get a clue. Yet...Poor HIM he has to deal with p*ssed off people all the time. Cry me a freakin river!

He's said on more than one occassion "the people who come on his site have no life". It was [u]not[/u] a bad choice of words, he truely believes it. That did not disclude his moderators.

He made rude comments of people's posts. Cracking jokes at people's expense. He used to give people credit for using their posts in his e-zine and I remember he had completely plagerized one of my posts taking full credit for using my words verbaitum. I don't care if its his site, its still plagerism. He should know what he did, he has enough rules about plagerism. Then again I'm forgetting he's god, whoops. It was petty so I didn't call him on it. At the time I was still a member.

He along with Katerina (Kaleb), hacked into another [b]real[/b] PRIVATE (non-registered) website we were on, ...which by the way is illegal.

The [b]Private[/b] Messaging system as well as Email system was turned off right before we were banned. You want to know why? Because we found out Adam was reading ALL of our "private" messages and had been for a long time...which Katerina completely denied.

We intentionally set him up.

phpBB message boards allows the administrator of the board to read all Private Messages if they wish. The administraitor can choose to enable the moderators to have this feature or not.

Another member and I sent eachother back and fourth a false private message with replies that we KNEW would get his attention and a response from him. Not one other person on that site knew about it and to our shock (yeah right) the PM and email systems were immediately (and I mean immediately) turned off. Yet Katerina still denied it up one way and down another even though we had proved it.

Who knows...maybe SHE really didn't know but we fully proved it. He definately was able to read them and he did even though he denied it. THAT is why the systems there were shut down. Even if he felt he had the right to because its his board, then why wouldn't he just admit it anyway??? What did he have to hide?

You are right, Adam's book could sell itself. He has great resources but no confidence in them obviously. I wonder why? I remember someone stated a theory on that once but I won't get into all that here. :wink:

[Kaleb124]

KP -- Yes you are right, everyone who was banned was banned because of association. I am sorry, but that is exactly true. I (believe it or not) miss a lot of you guys because I loved reading your replies to people....that is when you were being serious and helpful. I see that a couple have made it back onto the board and look forward to reading their posts again. ...Not kissing up (not that you will believe me), but that is what I think.

[quote] He along with Katerina (Kaleb), hacked into another real PRIVATE (non-registered) website we were on, ...which by the way is illegal. [/quote]

One thing that I for sure want to clear up....Adam had no park of my "information gathering". When all of that stuff started, I was just doing my job as Mod and someone (a couple of people) came to my private site to troll. The people who choose to post crap on my site made all of this very personal.....I fought fire with fire. I would HAVE LOVED to see the faces of you all when your user name flashed at the top of your screens when you visited my personal site. Oh, and I did not have to do any hacking....I am a computer geek, not a computer genius.....and I am sure not a hacker.

You may think that you have proof that Adam read your PM's. However I don't believe you. (I could be wrong....have been wrong before) But, you might have circumstancial evidence to that fact....Adam may have been able to decipher what you were really talking about by that way that you toned your posts on the board. But I do not think (I do not believe) that Adam was reading anyone PM's.

So, you say that Admin has that option on a PHPbb board.....

Remember when Adam posted that he needed someone who wanted to trade services to change over to the new forum software?

[url]http://www.dogtraining.westhost.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1624&highlight=phpbb[/url]

My husband did all of that programming. My husband has an Admin login....just like Adam. In fact, hubby has access to parts of that board that Adam does not have a tiny clue about. There is nothing that goes on (as far as the programming) on that board that he, my husband, is not aware of. There is no "hack" added to the Dog Problems board that allows ANYONE, not admin, not mods, not anyone, to read other people's PM's.

If a hack such as you are describing exists, we (Adam, Hubby, and I) are not aware that it is available.

Besides, why in the world would Adam turn of the PM feature if he could read them??? That I really do not understand. If it was my board (assuming that I could read PM's), and I was trying to squash a mutiny on it, I would NOT turn off the PM's but I would read them like crazy.

Information is power.

Oh well, You all will continue to think what ever you want. I know that I won't be able to change your minds.

I am truely sorry to hear that Richards board is not working. I am sure that he had put a lot of work into setting it up. And even though you guys probably had loads of fun making cracks toward myself (as well as Adam) I always respected Richard.

Your Favorite Nazi Moderator, Eva Braun.

[StarFox]

I realy have no clue what the deal is with DogListener or Kaleb124, nor do I particularly care.

But I do have something to say about that Leerburg site. That site is just absolute junk with no real training value. For example:

[b]"QUESTION:

I have an 11 month GSD female who I am trying to stop jumping. I try and reinforce her to sit before she gets anything and to be petted, which is getting better. I have seen No Jump Harnesses in the store, but the one I got was nylon and very hard to put on and was very tangled. It would take me a 1/2 hour just to try and get in on.

ANSWER:

Jumping is simply a dog with bad manners. A NO JUMP correction needs to be followed by a correction.

When a dog jumps on you, the solution I use is to grab the front feet and pinch the toes until the dog screams. The pinch needs to be held for several seconds (the dog will usually chew on your hands a little.) I can stop a puppy from jumping on me in one training session.

If the problem is with an older dog it

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Kaleb124']One thing that I for sure want to clear up....Adam had no park of my "information gathering". When all of that stuff started, I was just doing my job as Mod and someone (a couple of people) came to my private site to troll. The people who choose to post crap on my site made all of this very personal.....I fought fire with fire. Oh, and I did not have to do any hacking....I am a computer geek, not a computer genius.....and I am sure not a hacker.[/quote]

I don't care what you call yourself or what you did. By definition and popular opinion, you hacked.

Hacking-
3a. Informal To alter (a computer program): hacked her text editor to read HTML.
[b]b. To gain access to (a computer file or network) illegally or [u]without authorization[/u]: [i]hacked the firm's personnel database[/i].[/b]

You got into a private site with an unregistered domain which you did not own and you had no authorization to get into. You had no user name or password of your own. Whether you stole or guessed or whatever word gives you a warm fuzzy about what you did to get in, it wasn't yours and you were still not authorized.

Yes, that is illegal, no matter what the sites content. In fact I think its a felony if I'm not mistaken. The site was not public in any way shape or form......

MEANING there were NO people able to find it on a search engine. People would have to randomly type it into the address bar to find it without invitation and admittence is not permitted without the administraitor allowing membership. If you want privacy for your website don't put it where it can be found and don't broadcast links encouraging other people to visit your site under all your signature lines I see everywhere. If your site was so private not just anyone would be able to get on it. You and Adam both sure do a lot of publicity for "private" websites. You are mis-using the term. Either its private or its not. It may be privately owned but thats not how you are using the term.

I can [b]completely[/b] understand you being upset about the messages that were probably left on your board. I would be too. I will take responsibility for what I did but not what I didn't do. I didn't participate with that other than reading the results so I don't remember much about all that. Like I said I'm sorry that happened. I'm not proud of it. It should not have been carried over to your site. I'll admit that. You were also in our eyes guilty of association so you became a target as well. Others may have had beef with you...I don't know.

[quote]I would HAVE LOVED to see the faces of you all when your user name flashed at the top of your screens when you visited my personal site.[/quote]

I don't exactly know what you mean by this, I believe I have only been to your site once, and that was not even in the time span any of this happened. At least I don't remember visiting your site then.

By the way, how is Kim anyway since you brought up the fact that she got so personal? I hear in all actuality your pretty chummy. Enough to have a link of hers on your website. I may remember wrong its a little foggy to me since it was awhile ago but from what I remember she was the only one who posted on your site.

I don't need to click on your link :wink: I remember that thread well enough.

[quote]So, you say that Admin has that option on a PHPbb board.....

Remember when Adam posted that he needed someone who wanted to trade services to change over to the new forum software?

My husband did all of that programming. My husband has an Admin login....just like Adam. In fact, hubby has access to parts of that board that Adam does not have a tiny clue about. There is nothing that goes on (as far as the programming) on that board that he, my husband, is not aware of. There is no "hack" added to the Dog Problems board that allows ANYONE, not admin, not mods, not anyone, to read other people's PM's.

If a hack such as you are describing exists, we (Adam, Hubby, and I) are not aware that it is available.[/quote]

Thats funny because thats not what I remember you saying right before we got banned. :-? Why the change? In fact, I remember you saying at DP that there was a "hack" or plug in you just hadn't downloaded it. I have a couple handfuls of witnesses if I need to bring them to vouch for that quote. It's no problem... I find it kind of funny now you all the sudden are saying there isn't one at all. Doesn't quite add up.

I've been to phpBB's website quite a few times, I know whats available in fact I looked up this information on their message boards and there are numerous threads about the PM feature. They said that in some countries it's actually illegal to use this due to privacy laws, but people do anyway. And of course you personally know Richard knows all this is available as well.

I'm not as stupid as you apparently take me for Kat. If you're willing to say these things, controdicting [i]yourself[/i] and going against what I have found elsewhere how am I supposed to believe anything you have said in defense of Adam, his site or anything else you've written here?

[quote]Besides, why in the world would Adam turn of the PM feature if he could read them??? That I really do not understand. If it was my board (assuming that I could read PM's), and I was trying to squash a mutiny on it, I would NOT turn off the PM's but I would read them like crazy.

Information is power.[/quote]

Then again Adam seems to have a low self confidence of himself, his site and his own materials anyway. Why would he like seeing what other people have to say privately? Especially if you aren't well liked.

[quote]And even though you guys probably had loads of fun making cracks toward myself (as well as Adam) I always respected Richard.[/quote]

I can't speak for everyone but to be quite honest with you Kat I personally never had a problem with you. I don't always agree with you but then I don't always agree with a lot of people. We all make mistakes and I understand that. It's clear that I don't care for Adam or the way he works his "business". I feel his priorities are a way long shot out of wack and people who need help have suffered for it. Examples have been provided here I see and those aren't even the half of it. It's more than a business because there are lives at stake.

I think he gives himself a whole lot more credit than he is due. He lacks responsibility. I know you are doing the job in which Adam instructs you to do. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='StarFox']But I do have something to say about that Leerburg site. That site is just absolute junk with no real training value. [/quote]

For you and the average pet owner more than likely not...

I'm sorry but I just feel that people have no business having an opinion about something that they know absolutely nothing about aside from what they "think". I don't necissarily agree with everything said on Leerburg in fact they can be pretty intimidating at times but I highly respect Ed Frawley reguardless of his crass personality. I have gotten less than friendly answers back from emails from him and he's not always that bad but aside from the way he conveys things he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the type of dogs that his site is directed towards.

[u][b]HIS SITE IS NOT ABOUT OBEDIENCE OR THE AVERAGE PET DOG![/b][/u]

He is not an obedience trainer!!!

Like Another Guest said its for dogs with temperments and drives off the charts. This not only includes working dogs but severe aggression cases which quite obviously you have never had any experience or knowledge in dealing with on any level let alone the level he works with them. I would say that he does the absolute most in rehabilitation and training for dogs successfully before he goes and puts them down which would be the easy way out.

It amazes me how many Purely Positive trainers suggest euthanizing a dog before they will suggest any intense temperament training as if killing a dog is more humane than getting it to a point where it can live a normal life which is exactly what Ed does and has been doing for years. Very successfully I might add.

People look through his site and expect obedience training tips for their pet dogs? You don't find it odd after reading his website, after looking through all that, that people email him this stuff every day expecting an honest perky answer? His site is geared toward the working dog and aggression cases and some person wants to know what to do about their Bichon jumping up on them and a polite response is expected?

Ed replies to nearly every single e-mail he gets. I believe I read somewhere he recieves over 200 a day.

Now if you really read over his website before you asked a question (like you should if your really interested in what he has to say) what in the world would you expect anything other than what you've seen at his site over a stupid question that could be asked at a site that specializes in obedience? Why would you even waist his time? If you didn't read over his site then you aren't really looking for answers in the first place.

Gabbing Guest

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Another different guest']I haven't read the whole thing yet but I will say that with respect to the Bischon, he wasn't serious. The trainers on that site, especially Ed Frawley, have nearly zero patience for silly questions. They have nearly zero patience for pet owners actually.[/quote]

then, instead of promoting completely outdated reactionary correction methods, maybe they should simply post in a visible spot that "pet owners" and their questions are not wanted there and send them elsewhere. that aside, i don't think that any questions about a dog's behavioral problems are "silly". every dog owner who cares enough to work with his dog's problems and difficulties equals one less dog killed off at shelter. i suppose you aren't one of the people who has ever had to do the cleaning up after irresponsible dog owners.

[quote name='Another different guest']They are all about working dogs. I guess anyone silly enough to post on that site about not being able to control a 15lb dog sort of asks for a flip sarcastic remark. The same is probably true about the other posts. I will read them though.[/quote]

it doesn't take much to treat people politely and direct them somewhere else if you don't want to deal with particular issues. why be rude and post that sort of garbage at all then? nevertheless, there is advice posted throughout the page that their belief is that a dog must fear correction more than doing anything "wrong" - and that is just complete bullshit. i can only repeat, fear does NOT equal respect.

[quote name='Another different guest']And no I don't think that such a sarcastic response is necessary but having lurked on that site for 2 years I can say that they don't advocate this. What you are seeing is a flip sarcastic response from an intolerant person.[/quote]

sorry, but see above. there are far too many references to cruel training methods on that page for my taste. i've been involved in hundesport in germany and believe me, people there do NOT treat their dogs like that. appropriate corrections are a quick pop on the choke or prong collar for example, but definitely not yelling at the dog at the top of your lungs or beating it. the best dog handlers i've seen in action don't even talk to their dogs very loudly, they issue commands quietly even if the dog is 100 yards away.

[quote name='Another different guest']There are so many pet friendly sites I have to wonder why a person would post about a Bischon on a working GSD board. :roll: That doesn't excuse it, but you can't change some peoples personalities.[/quote]

that still doesn't make the training methods they promote on their site any more valid. just because a dog is a working dog doesn't make it any harder to train, or warrants harsher corrections. quite the contrary, dogs bred from working lines, with "drive off the chart" as you called it, are more likely to step into their naturally defined role with very little need for extreme corrections. drive does not mean aggression, or dominance, or a tendency to be independednt and unwilling to obey. drive means passion for their work that they WANT to do.

i can't remember even a single one of our hundesport instructors [b]ever[/b] advocating beating a dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='courtnek']

I have NEVER hurt, abused, neglected or violated ANY of the many dogs I have had. and I honestly resent the fact that you think I have...[/quote]

....And I resent the fact that you think that I, or anyone else who uses pinch collars, *hurt* the dogs. You obviously don't have a clue how a pinch collar works.

FYI ALL of my dogs were trained w/out pinch collars, including the two I have at present, which I obtained as mature dogs, from breed rescues. They are herding dogs, not Labs, but I have used them on big, out of control Labs that came into our rescue. The dogs were out of control because the owner's thought pinch collars were *cruel* and let the dogs make all their own *choices*, so it was either get the dogs under control or put them to sleep, which the Shelters they came from would have done.

At any rate...I am done with this dialogue. It is going no where and I have better things to do.

You have a great day! :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

I am with you Guest. It is exhausting just reading some of this stuff. I am done here too. Goodbye all. Happy training. :D

[Kaleb124]

KP -- Out of all that you have said the only thing that I really care about is that you are saying that I am a lier. I do not lie. Things change, situations change, I change my mind, but I do not lie.

Now that is not to say that I have never mis-communicated, because (especially when using the written word) I will think that I am being clear and getting my point across, and the other person does not get the message that I entended. And no, I am not copping out and trying to say that it is the other persons fault that they do not understand what I really mean....and I am not using the word mis-communicate to soften what was really a lie. It is only my fault that I have not communicated cleary.

But I don't expect you to just believe me for what I say either. You have made up your mind about me and only you can change your mind about me.

Oh, and I would have never found your private forum (or even know that it existed) but for the fact that someone posted a link to my private website on your forum and someone else clicked that link to visit my site (and then to top it off, leave me a B/S message). All of those things together led me to your forum. Ano one of them would have just looked like a random visitor. My websites collect all that kind of data for stats and records. And no, that is not illegal. It had nothing to do with hacking. Someone from your forum who did not know better made an ignorant mistake by clicking the link that directed them to my site.

Oh well, I wish you all the best.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='newfiemom']So far, this thread has been nothing but a gripe session between Adam followers and people who have been banned from his site. For those of you who wish to be anonymous [b](have no idea why)[/b] and have nothing relevant to say about the topic at hand, take your snipping elsewhere. I could care less about the circumstances surrounding the whole banning thing and who hacked who. What I do care about is dogs and what different techniques I can learn from "intelligent" people, not people whining and crying about being banned and other people kissing Adam's butt.[/quote]

Because not all of us have been banned. If we were to do so then we would be banned from that site but we enjoy helping other people. We don't like to see that we have to push the prong collar for every dog that comes to his board or be banned just because he feels [b]every[/b] dog should wear a prong collar. How fair is that? You can't even have a conflicting opinion or feeling in his forum. His way or the highway. I would think in a forum like this people would have a lot to say about it other than, get out. Maybe its not too different here than there I guess...

And as a matter of fact this thread has entirely had a lot to do with techniques of training as well as Adam and whether he (a person in the US runs his business (that includes his message board) typically) which are the main topic. This thread has not gotten off topic at all.

I'm sorry this bothers you but we are only replying to a member of your sites post based on our experience which I feel is valid since they are experiences which coincide with the topic. Some of us it seems, just don't want reprocussions due to all this which I think is a good reason to stay as a guest at this point and time. Would you want to be kicked off any message board because you had an opinion elsewhere? I bet not, so how can you possibly blame us?

[courtnek]

[quote]....And I resent the fact that you think that I, or anyone else who uses pinch collars, *hurt* the dogs. You obviously don't have a clue how a pinch collar works[/quote]

for your info, I NEVER SAID THAT.....I agreed that with some dogs, prong and pinch collars may be necessary to teach them to calm down some. They are not for ALL dogs, and I never once said that their usage was cruel, under the right circumstances. Try reading the posts before accusing. And I too, am done with this thread.

[Doglistener]

[quote]Yes I think that dog listeners reaction is a bit extreme also. I have read all of the posts twice and I am still not sure what the beef is. Are you so extremely upset because you were banned from the forum or because of the training methods which are advocated? Regardless of what my opinion is, I think it was said by Kaleb that the forum which has you in such turmoil is NOT a public forum, and while you may disagree with the training methods (as you have every right to if that is your wish), as I understand them (using a prong and/or e-collar to extinguish undesirable behaviors and to correct for disobeying a LEARNED command) this is legal and practiced in the United States. There are many different methods used here. [/quote]

I am sure you think I am extreme and to some extent you may be right. However perhaps not for the reasons you have quoted.

To answer your question my reaction is not about being banned, I would never have stayed on a site that advocated Prongs, Checks or shock collars on a 3/4 month old puppy.

What annoyed me was after I was banned people complained about my banning and were then banned in turn Ken being one of them plus many others.

I do not like the methods that Katz uses to instil "Discipline" into his dogs however I am aware that it is not illegal in the States, however what should be illegal is false guarantees and promises, money back agreements that are phoney and $10,000 bets on things no one can prove.

What also should be illegal is to invite all on the forum with the false promise they will get advice from literally hundreds of trainers then to falsely manipulate the posts in the forum and Katz's favour for financial gain.

To lie and attack other peoples techniques and web sites totally incorrectly by using employees and sychophants, posing as normal posters, especially when the person has no right of reply because they have been banned.

Coupled with what I perceive to be a total disregard for mans finest companion the Dog and with total disdain for his clients "YOU" the general public. Is probably part of why I started this pos,t which has now had nearly thousand views.

How about the fact that he has apparently had nothing to do with hands on training with dogs for years, yet still sells outmoded and archaic techniques. Knowledge do not stand still!!!!!

I could go on about why I find this man distateful but just read the rest of the posts I do not appear to be on my own in my comments or assumptions. Even his own moderators struggled to have a good word to say about him.

I rest my case, and will continue to love the animals I work with,. I will also continue to fight for the dog owner who needs knowledge not hype, proper advice not blatant profiteering and spin.

Doglistener

[Guest Anonymous]

Newfie I can honestly say I would not have a problem doing that if the PM's were available to the guests. I can only speak for myself when I state that I think I'm pretty much done. Unless someone directs something at me. I've made my points. Thus far I have nothing more to say.

Gabbing guest

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay. Now that was a nice post. I agree with 95% of what you have said. Where I differ (at least I think we differ) is that I do believe that some dogs need stronger corrections than others in the proofing stage. I don't believe that any dog should be taught with compulsion. But I do believe that for proofing there has to be a negative... Good luck to you.

And to Newfiemom, your postings were rude.