Need help to analyse dog food ingredients.

[imported_Cassie]

I do not have a vast knowledge of what should and should not be in the list of ingredients for a dog food...I feed my dogs BARF and when I do buy dog kibble I refer to the whole dog journal top 10 list.
My delima is, working in the dog related feilds we have had many customers at the Vet clinic and the Grooming facility tell us how they have gone to a local pet store and have been sold on Blue Seal dog food. The man who runs the store tells the customers Blue Seal is the best and the only reason alot of dogs are suffering from allergies etc is because they feed low quality foods...now on his list of low qualities food is what we sell at the Vet clinic called Medical - I don't buy the kibble from the Vet clinic so I don't know the list of ingredients, he also tells customers that Solid Gold is a horrible food etc. Not one of my Customers knows how to read a list of ingredients and I can only tell them a few things to watch out for (like BHA/BHT, corn etc) so I am just looking for peoples opioions on this list of [b]ingredients from Blue Seal[/b].

[color=blue]Poultry By-Product Meal, Ground Corn, Wheat Flour, Poultry Fat (mixed tocopherols Perservative), Dried Beet Pulp, Flaxseed, Animal Digest, Corn Gluten Meal, Yeast Culture, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 supplemant, Niacin supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Maganese Sulfate, d-Calcium Patothenate, Maganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Thiamine, Mononitrate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Lodate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Rosemary Extract, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K Activity)[/color]

Perhaps some one can explain to me how nutritious is Poultry By-product meal...I thought it was recommended to have only one animal source as an ingredient, for example Chicken meal, or Turkey meal. What is Animal Digest???? it sounds gross.
I usually stay out of dog food issues with our clients, but, this guy is really starting to peev me off the way he is even putting down solid gold dog food which I thought was a pretty good brand.

[b]Solid Gold - Millennium[/b]
[color=red]Beef Meal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flax seed oil, Salmon Oil, Rice Bran oil, Garlic, Parsley, Thyme, Dried Seaweed meal, Cranberry Meal, Dried Sweet Potatoes, Dried Apples, Dried Carrots, Taurine, Carotene, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E-supplement, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, Zinc proteinate, Niacin supplement, Folic Acid, Thiamine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide (source of Iodine) [/color]

Advice will be greatly appreciated. :wink:

[DogPaddle]

Ok my comments in caps:

Poultry By-Product Meal - UNIDENTIFIED MEAT SOURCE BY PRODUCT, Ground Corn - CORN NOT VERY USEFUL TO DOGS, IRRITATES ALLERGIES, Wheat Flour - WOULDN'T BE HORRIBLE IF INGREDIENT RIGHT BEFORE IT HADN'T ALSO BEEN A FAIRLY EMPTY CARB, Poultry Fat (mixed tocopherols Perservative) - MORE UNINDENTIFIED MEAT, Dried Beet Pulp - OFTEN BUT NOT ALWAYS ADDED AS FLAVOURING DUE TO [color=red]SUGER[/color] CONTENT, Flaxseed, Animal Digest - UNIDENTIFIED SLAUGHTER HOUSE LEAVINGS?, Corn Gluten Meal - THE MOST USELESS INGREDIENT IN DOG FOOD (and coincidentially also one of the first ingred. in OLRoy), Yeast Culture, [color=red]Salt - SALT NO-NO[/color],
Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 supplemant, Niacin supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Maganese Sulfate, d-Calcium Patothenate, Maganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Thiamine, Mononitrate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Lodate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Rosemary Extract, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K Activity)
A FAIR NUMBER OF INGREDIENTS/CHEMICALS I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH

Solid Gold - MillenniuM
Beef Meal - SOME PEOPLE AVOID BEEF DUE TO SPECIFIC ALLERGIES OR DUE TO ITS HIGH PROTIEN AND FAT CONTENT, SOME DOGS NEED IT THOUGH, [color=brown][[/color]Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice[color=darkred]][/color] - TWO CARBS IN FIRST THREE INGREDS, COULD BE BETTER BUT NOT BAD, GOOD SOURCES, Menhaden Fish Meal - GOOD, Flax seed oil, Salmon Oil, Rice Bran oil, Garlic - SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE GARLIC LIKE ONIONS SHOULD NOT BE FED TO DOGS, Parsley, Thyme, Dried Seaweed meal, Cranberry Meal, Dried Sweet Potatoes, Dried Apples, Dried Carrots, Taurine, Carotene, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E-supplement, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, Zinc proteinate, Niacin supplement, Folic Acid, Thiamine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide (source of Iodine)
VERY FEW INGREDIENTS I DON'T RECOGNIZE, GOOD SOURCES, FED IT TO MY DOG AS HE WAS VERY ACTIVE AND NEEDED THE EXTRA FAT AND PROTIEN - HE LOVED THE BEEF.

JMHO THOUGH.

[TDG]

unless an animal is allergic, multiple protein sources are actually beneficial because together they provide a greater variety of amino acids and thus are more likely to offer a well balanced profile.

any byproducts are to be avoided because they are much less digestible than a whole meat product and you can never be sure of consistency in quality and nutrients. (just as a side note, any "whole meat" sources in "meal" form, such as chicken meal, lamb meal etc. include meat and bones in most cases, so they have a balanced calcium/phosphorus ratio and are actually more nutritious.)

the official AAFCO definition for "animal digest" is:
[i]A material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed. If it bears a name descriptive of its kind or flavor(s), it must correspond thereto.[/i]

in other words, a cooked-down broth made from unspecified parts of unspecified animals. the animal tissues used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, animals euthanized at shelters and so on.

this "blue seal" brand doesn't have much going in the department of main ingredients, it's mainly all byproducts and flavorings, but it does have better absorbable forms of some vitamins and minerals than the average food. it's a concern for me that apparently it has more salt than "egg product". corn gluten meal is an inexpensive protein booster, a harmless ingredient but definitely an indicator of a low-grade food.

it definitely gets nowhere even close to solid gold, which is a trustworthy, high quality product. if someone is tight on money, i would recommend nutro natural choice or nature's recipe over this "blue seal" stuff any day, and heaven knows those two aren't anywhere near getting on the WDJ top 10 list either. :)

[imported_Cassie]

Thank you both for responding TDG & Dogpaddle you are both a wealth of information. :wink:
Being a Receptionist at the Vet clinic I have many people asking me for help with the ingredients in dog food..now that I have this information; I do not have to put down any specific dog food brands..but, at least I can give them advice of what to look for in a quality dog food and what to avoid without actually telling them what brand to buy...some people can't afford the food from the Vet clinic (and I don't think the list of ingredients are as good as what is in the solid gold products)
Dogpaddle, the solid gold comes in other meats other than beef..I beleive they have a Lamb etc. the only list of ingredients I had on hand was for the Millennium which has beef.

Thank you

[3ofakind]

Just a side note.

There is a new food out called Blue Buffalo, which should not be confused with Blue Seal. The former is actually a relatively good food, being carried by petsmart in an effort to get into the premium food market. Interestingly, it has no buffalo in it LOL. The later is, as you all saw, less than desireable.

Just thought it would be good to let you all know they are not one in the same.

[ferky1]

Cassie - I agree that you have to walk a fine line, and that you are probably better off in your position trying to educate and help people instead of recommending one type of food or putting down another. That being said, if people are being misinformed by the pet store owner, I'm sure they would benefit greatly if you 'suggested' looking at the ingredient lists of other foods and comparing the ingredients to what has been recommended to them.

Here are the first 15 or so ingredients from a few highly regarded dog foods. I think that the differences are obvious between these foods and that Blue Seal (and, to a lessor extent, even the Sold Gold which, IMHO, is much better than the Blue Seal).

Wellness: Deboned Chicken, Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Rye Flour, Menhaden Fishmeal, Whitefish, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Millet, Canola Oil (preserved with Rosemary, Vitamin C & E), Flax Seed, Amaranth, Dried Peas, Dried Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Whole Apples, Whole Blueberries, Whole Clove Garlic, Alfalfa Leaf, Yucca Schidigera, Probiotics. . .

Natural Balance: Chicken, Brown Rice, Duck, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Pearled Barley, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols-a source of Vitamin E, Citric Acid, and Rosemary Extract), Natural Flavor, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil, Brewers Yeast, Lecithin, Choline Chloride, Carrots, Potassium Chloride, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Dried Kelp, Salt, Parsley Flakes. . .

Blue Buffalo (available at PetSmart): Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Rye, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid and Rosemary), Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Ground Flax Seed, Alfalfa, Herring Oil, Sea Salt, Barley Grass, Sunflower Oil . . .

As you can see, these quality dry dog foods do not have unidentified meats or animal products, they do not contain corn, soy or wheat which are generally useless fillers and known to cause or irritate allergies and the first few ingredients are whole meats and grains (and most come in choices other than chicken). Looking at the above ingredients directly compared to the first few in Blue Seal: Poultry By-Product Meal, Ground Corn, Wheat Flour, Poultry Fat, should clearly show that there are obvious differences in quality of ingredients and those that really care about what they feed their pet (and if they are asking you, then they clearly care) should take notice and make appropriate changes. I'm sure you know that the three listed above are by no means the only foods with top-quality ingredients, but you aren't going to find any in the grocery store.

[Rosebud]

[color=blue]Poultry By-Product Meal, Poultry Fat (mixed tocopherols Perservative)[/color]

While Beef By-Product Meal is great for a dog, Poultry By-Product is a BIG NO! NO! It's nothing but junk and I am very disappointed that this is the only meat source for protein.

[quote][size=2][b]Poultry By-Products/Chicken By-Products[/b]
The clean parts of poultry including [b][color=red]bone, heads, feet or entrails[/color][/b]. Does not contain feathers. If from a particular source it may state so (i.e. chicken by-products, turkey by-products). A good source of protein, and fat.[/size][/quote]

[quote][size=2]Meat By-Products/Beef By-Products/Lamb By-Products
The clean parts derived from mammals. It may include [b][color=red]lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, liver, blood, bones, stomach and intestines[/color][/b]. It does not include hair, horns, teeth or hooves. If from a particular source it may state so (i.e. beef by-products, lamb by-products). A good source of protein, and fat.[/size][/quote]

[color=blue]Ground Corn, Wheat Flour[/color]

While I am impressed that these are being used in whole form, I am not wild about them being used with such a poor source of protein, these products should be used with a better protein source to balance the protein/carb ratio. This food has more carbs than protein.

[color=blue]Dried Beet Pulp[/color]

This is nothing but a filler used to firm up dogs stools, it should be way down the list of ingredients. With this listed at the top they are having to add a lot of it to keep the dogs from having runny stools. This is not used as a sugar, the sugar and water are extracted leaving nothing but the fiber.

[quote][size=2][b]Beet Pulp[/b]
The dried residue from cleaned sugar beets which have been extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. A good source of water-soluble fiber.[/size][/quote]

[color=blue]Flaxseed[/color]

I am actually impressed that this food has some kind of amino acid, even though I don't know a lot about Flaxseed.

[quote][size=2][b]Flaxseed[/b]
The product obtained by grinding flaxseeds. An excellent source of essential fatty acids.[/size][/quote]

[color=blue]Animal Digest, Corn Gluten Meal[/color]

More fillers and very poor quality ones at that.

[quote][size=2][b]Animal Digest/Digest[/b]
The material that results from the chemical and/or enzymatic breakdown of clean animal tissue. If from a particular source may be labeled as such (i.e. chicken digest). Used to enhance the palatability of products.[/size][/quote]

[quote][size=2][b]Corn Gluten Meal[/b]
The dried residue from corn after removal of the starch, germ and bran. An excellent source of highly digestible protein.[/size][/quote]


[color=blue]Yeast Culture, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, Niacin supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Maganese Sulfate, d-Calcium Patothenate, Maganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Thiamine, Mononitrate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Lodate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Rosemary Extract, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K Activity)[/color]

Very interesting that he has to add a ton of vitamins and minerals to his "high-quality" dog food, if he was using quality protein/vitamin/mineral sources this list would only contain the supplements that are destroyed during the cooking process. He also has not added the essential digestive enzymes (probiotics) that are necessary for proper digestion. ie. Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Solubles and Bacillus Subtillus, Lactobacillus (yogurt)

Here's an excellent article.

[url]http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79[/url]

Here's a list of definitions of pet food ingredients

[url]http://www.petsmart.com/articles/article_6349.shtml[/url]

:angel:

[TDG]

amino acids and essential fatty acids (efa's) are not the same thing.

amino acids are the "building blocks" that make up protein. the body uses them to build muscle, hair, nails, organs and so on. for this, the protein in the form it is fed is broken down into the single amino acids, which are then utilized by the body. there are hundreds of them, 10 are essential for dogs, meaning they [b]must[/b] be provided in the diet, since dogs can't synthesize them.

efa's are found in certain types of fats and oils. i won't get to the molecular level, it's not for everyone and whoever is interested can look it up on google. efa's are important for skin and coat health, fight infections and support the immune system, help utilize nutrients from food intake, aid in regulating blood flow and are involved in a lot of other things. they are often referred to as omega 6 and omega 3 fatty acids, but omega 9's are still largely ignored in animal nutrition.

flax seed contains efa's but also enzymes that add a considerable health benefit. once the grain is ground, they are destroyed quickly though, so if you want that benefit you have to buy whole flax seed and grind it at home as needed. flax seed oil is an excellent nutrient too, but also needs to be consumed rather quickly once a bottle is opened, so buying large quantities doesn't make much sense.

wheat flour is a highly processed ingredient and has lost almost all of its valuable nutrients already. whole wheat would have been a much better choice. what's more important in any sort of grain used for dog food is its quality - poor quality foods often use feed grade grains that have been deemed unfit for human consumption due to contamination from mold and other toxic substances. anyone who is interested, look up "vomitoxin", there have been some episodes where dog food was recalled because dogs died.

i disagree with rosebud about the "ton of vitamins added" indicating a poor quality food. many top quality brands have quite an impressive list as well, it's simply an effort of the manufacturer to add back into the food what was lost during processing and to ensure that sufficient levels will still be present after the product has been sitting on a shelf for a while. some vitamins and minerals are added in stabilized forms that have a time-release effect, so that smaller quanitities will be released throughout the digestion process instead of just releasing all of them at once and large quantities passing through unused. here are some examples of vitamin and mineral supplementation in high-end foods:

eagle pack:
DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplements, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus lichenformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae and Aspergillus niger.

canidae:
Monosodium Phosphate, Choline, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) Zinc Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Manganous Oxide, Riboflavin Supplement (Source of B2), Yeast Culture, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation product, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Niacin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, D- Biotin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium, Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Papain, Bacillus Subtilis, Aspergillus Niger, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

wellness:
Probiotics (Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus), Prebiotics (Inulin, Fructose), Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of Zinc), Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of Copper), Copper Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate ( a chelated source of Manganese), Sodium Selenite, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid.

back to basics:
Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B 12 Supplement, Thiamine Monoitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K Activity) Citric Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate.

timberwolf organics:
Probiotics (Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus lactis, Bacillus bifidum, Steptococcus diacetilactis, Bacillus subtillus), Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin E supplement, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Copper Sulphate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Iodate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide (source of Iodine), Papain.

also, petsmart only has the AAFCO industry definitions included on their page, but does not really tell people what's actually in them. the natura website does a better job of that.

[url]http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=ingr-wiz[/url]

[Rosebud]

:D

Thank you TD for the the correction and explanation of the difference between amino acids and essential fatty acids and what flax seed is and is for.

[quote]poor quality foods often use feed grade grains that have been deemed unfit for human consumption due to contamination from mold and other toxic substances[/quote]

This is another point that came up in the article I read about what dogs are really allergic to in grain ingredients; the mold and chemicals and not the grains themselves.

[quote]i disagree with rosebud about the "ton of vitamins added" indicating a poor quality food. many top quality brands have quite an impressive list as well, it's simply an effort of the manufacturer to add back into the food what was lost during processing and to ensure that sufficient levels will still be present after the product has been sitting on a shelf for a while. [/quote]

while I do agree with you on this, my comment meant that it was interesting for him to add a ton of vitamins to an otherwise poor quality food and that "if he was using quality protein/vitamin/mineral sources this list would only contain the [b]supplements that are destroyed during the cooking process[/b]."

Thanks for the link, I will be sure to check it out and have added it to my favorites.

by the way:
I feed Eagle Pack Natural and absolutely love it.

:angel:

[imported_Cassie]

Thanks every one, I am going to read the articles this evening and get familiar with the good & evil of dog food!!! :lol:

As for the flaxseed, I buy the organic grown seeds and I bought myself a coffee grinder to grind them at home. I sprinkle a little on my dogs food and my cereal...that coffee grinder is one of my best purchases besides my normal blender for veggies for the dogs and strawberry daiquires for me...I also grind pumpkin seeds for my dogs meals (1-2 times a week).

Thank you Rosebud & TDG for the wonderful links & information and ferky1 for the list of ingredients of other top quality dog foods and helpful advice.