courtnek Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 She nailed a bird in the backyard..and a mouse earlier. When I took them away, they were pretty mangled.... I had to kill both of them. They would have been in pain otherwise. I WISH she would stop trying to hunt.... She doesnt kill them, just drags them around. Leaves that unpleasant task for me, after she's mangled them beyond saving... gggrrrrr..... :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelboddy Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Oh, that is sooo sad :cry: I'm sorry you have to go through that. My dog tries to catch birds and rabbits, but she is to slow. I think she wants to play with them. Maybe thats what your dog is doing is playing with them. She may not mean to hurt them but does not know her own strength. If she is not killing them and trying to eat them, then she may just be playing with them. [img]http://thumbs.webshots.com/sym/na3/9/92/3/74699203BJBfeD_th.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 On the bright side if you and Freebee are ever stranded in the woods you at least won't lack for meat. Once a Retriever proceeds from grab-bite to kill-bite it is known as having a "hard mouth"....if the dog then goes on to dissect, it is next to impossible to train these two motor patterns out of the functional sequence because they are innnately motivated and rewarded. If having the bird (or animal) in the mouth, which is grab-bite , triggers kill-bite, and if kill bite triggers dissect, that dog has an incurable problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowie-the-Pooh Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 [quote name='courtnek']She nailed a bird in the backyard..and a mouse earlier. When I took them away, they were pretty mangled.... I had to kill both of them. They would have been in pain otherwise. I WISH she would stop trying to hunt.... She doesnt kill them, just drags them around. Leaves that unpleasant task for me, after she's mangled them beyond saving... gggrrrrr..... :evil:[/quote] Ohh, Rowie does the exact same thing! :cry: She's always been a bird dog, but never actually caught one! Then one day, there was a pigeon with a brocken wing/sick that couldn't fly very well, and Rowie started chasing it and it bumped into a wall( :o) then Rowie grabbed it, and started running around with it in her mouth! I was beyond disgusted, and when I finally DID get it from her, it had a HUGE guage in it's side, it's lung was punctured, and it was wincing in pain. I couldn't do anything about it, the poor pigeon! It just scares me that such an innocent dog could do such a thing! :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted June 1, 2003 Author Share Posted June 1, 2003 Cassie please explain your comment - Do you mean "incurable" as far as she might become dangerous, or just incurable as far as never being a bird retrieval dog? Shes never been trained to retreive, just kinda does it on her own.... she also points, and has never been trained, but I think she is part German Shorthaired Pointer, too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 [quote]Do you mean "incurable" as far as she might become dangerous, or just incurable as far as never being a bird retrieval dog? Shes never been trained to retreive, just kinda does it on her own....[/quote] Courtnek, we have developed specialized breeds and how we have done this is by rearranging the functional sequence of motor patterns by deleting some and changing the shape of others,and by connecting and disconnecting still others. For Freebee she is displaying normal functional sequences for a retriever ...its when a retriever has gone from grab-bite to kill bite when you have an incurable problem as the dog receives an internal reward for the behavior...it is next to impossible to train motor patterns out of the functional sequence because they are innately motivated and rewarded...it doesnt mean your dog will become dangerous (well, she would be dangerous if you were a small animal! :lol: ), it just means that Freebee has set motor patterns and to try to train her not to go after and grab-bite small animals is next to impossible... Here is an example of the ancestral motor patterns: [b]orient/eye-stalk/chase/grab-bite/kill-bite/dissect/consume[/b] to make a specialized breed such as a pointer you would delete some of the ancestral motor patterns. A pointers predatory sequence looks like this: [b]orient/EYE-stalk/grab-bite/consume[/b] Pointers are not supposed to chase, but rather to stay in the eye-stalk position until the handler gives the command to flush (which is a modified grab-bite) but he does not want it to chase the bird. The dog waits and then starts over with the orientation and searching behaviors to find the shot-down bird. then it grab bites and retruns to the handler. Pointers which proceed from grab-bite to to kill bite are said to have a "hard mouth" A retriever's predatory sequence looks like this: [b]orient/chase/GRAB-BITE/consume[/b] Retrievers have hypertrophied searching orientation, which goes almost directly to a grab-bite. Most retrievers don't have well-defined eye-stalk-its not very useful when sitting in a canoe or duck blind. Like pointers, if the retriever follow grab-bite with kill-bite, they are hard mouthed, which is a fault in the retriever but it does happen. a sheep-herding border collie would be: [b]orient/EYE-STALK/CHASE/dissect/consume [/b] I just had to throw that one in for you to compare. So, Im sorry I did not mean to imply Freebee could become dangerous...there will be no past reflections of "gee, she started out just killing small animals...now the post man...where did I go wrong!" I do think understanding breed specific motor patterns helps us understand why our dogs do the things they do...for example: a good working border collie is not a good housedog....once a border collie shows the eye it is not a good "pet" but it is a wonderful working dog...some people have had border collies which when they start showing their natural motor patterns (show the eye) they mistake the compulsive behavior and think the dog has "mental problems" or a "chemical imbalance" when in actual fact the dog is just diplaying its natural motor patterns....its a shame more people don't understand the potential motor patterns of the breed they choose... for pointers a bird dog trainer does not train a young pointer to point...point is innate; it is wired into the dogs brain...the same is true with border collies, which has "eye" hard wired in. Nobody can train a dog to show eye, or to point....these are traits passed down genetically. Sorry to ramble on & on, I just find motor patterns very interesting.... :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted June 3, 2003 Author Share Posted June 3, 2003 Thanks Cassie I do understand the motor skills/training and motivation behind what she does (I've had retrievers a long time) but I misunderstood what you said. "incurable" threw me I guess. While not normally aggressive towards people, she does not have the usual "happy go lucky I-love-everybody" attitude that labs and goldens are purported to have. I say purported because I think that particular breed standard is way over-emphasized, and can be dangerous to the unknowing dog owner. But my original golden had what his breeder called "natural soft mouth". I have seen him pick up a fallen bird and bring it to me without so much as a ruffled feather. I was told that is somewhat rare without training. Freebee ruffles, a lot. and although she has never kill-bitten, she does show the "it's mine dont touch it" kinda hunting attitude....although she always gives it up, I can tell she would rather keep it. Whether she would actually eat it or not I dont know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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