Something I dont understand?

[deepseasnake]

Why is a breeds history so differant from its presant state?
like with any mastiff type breed, Mastinos were supposed to fight in Gladitorial games and I read that Danes were used to hunt lions and Shar Peis were war dogs along with Akitas and such. Yet none of these modern dogs could ever be expressly profieciant in these tasks so whats the deal? why gloat your dog up if he could never perform?
I cant really think of a breed that still does a dangerous feat like these other than GSDs in their work, ABs in texas style hogging and then normal hunting dogs.
Im not saying I want to reinstate the slaughter of Lions by a pack of danes or let a couple guys get eaten by a Mastino but it was so long ago we're talking about 2 totally differant dogs here arent we?

[bullygirl29532]

As times change, dogs as well as peoples rolls change. yeah if you look @ human history at one time we were nomadic hunter and gatheres, but we were still humans. so even though our dogs don't do what they did 100 or 1000 years ago, i see them as the same breed today. just directed by us to serve our new purpose for them. but i also believe that it would not take much time or training to get some breeds to go back to what we bred them to do in the first place. not sure if i understood your question Deep, but thats my answer to it.

[Guest Anonymous]

I was watching on Animal Planet, and on Breed All About It, it had the Dalmation. They said Dals were used to run under the caradges (sp) to gaurd the people, and the carage from robbers and shuch. And that now, they hold anual things to keep this heritage in the dog, and will make up trails for them to do this. But they have them just running beside the horses. And they do test on each dog and stuff, to make sure that they can handle it, so I guess it's a pretty tough trail, so it's much like in the old days.
And yeah, just about all herding dogs are still used for what they were back then.
But I'm not quit sure what your question is either... just thought I'd put in my two cents!

[deepseasnake]

I guess thinking back it was more of a rant than a clear question.
It came as somewhat of a suprise to me that Great Danes the infamous Lion hunters of africa arent big wrestlers and instead of revisit old instinct perfer a quick jog in the park than sleep the day away on the couch :roll:

I am also irretated that a Mastino cant run or jump at full speed because of joint problems yet to fight successfully in a colosium for 2K years it seems they should be over their creeky joints and sensitive eyes

maybe Im more upset that we as people are ruining these breeds that for so long were so good at what we are taking away from them. if that makes any sense :roll:
anyway no real question I guess it was just a thought I had and needed to act on :-?

[ArtfulDodger]

The dogs of yesteryear are VERY different to the dogs of today, in alot if not most cases.
The exceptions to the rule are predominantly the hunting dogs, pointers, spaniels, foxhounds, blueticks, lurchers, greyhounds etc and the fighting and guard dogs, pitbulls, tosa,staffordshire bulls, rottwiellers, german sheps etc.
I believe a good pitbull today would be very similar to a half decent pitbull 200 years ago.
I also believe that the reason this is so is because there is a thriving underworld dogfighting subculture that is still breeding for gameness, thus keeping the dog as similar as is possible in temperement to it's ancestors.

I buy my dogs from a breeder with a " good" reputation, I buy from him because although I don't EVER fight my dogs, I do take them pig hunting and a dog NEEDS to be game and up for it if he's going to have a crack at a big boar.
I could buy my dogs from a nice family but it would be cruel to the dog to take him out on pigs if he's not up to it and I couldn't be confident that the nice family that had bred the dog I am buying, had bred for gameness or looks.
My dogs, from the guy with the good rep, will attack a big boar and hold him without any fear. They wag their tails the whole time and absolutely love the whole thing no matter how much the boar throws them around, they won't quit until I physically remove them, even then they are straining to get back to the dead boar. I've had other pits over the years from newspaper breeders and, although lovely dogs, they sometimes lost their bottle when they came across a larger than usual pig and wouldn't be keen to get in there and grab it. If you're thinking I am sitting in a car somewhere watching the action by remote I can assure you I too am in considerable danger from an angry pig and in order to not get killed myself I must be able to count on my grab dogs. I despatch the pig by a long knife straight into the heart, very quick death, the pig immediately collapses. As you can imagine this would be an extremely difficult thing to do if the pig wasn't being held by dogs.
These dogs are not snarling, slobbering whirlwinds chained to a post near a 45 gallon drum kennel. I can see Reggie now, he's my new boy, he's nearly 2. He's on his back snoring on the couch with one of my cats curled up near his head. Cleo, my 12 year old retired matron is, as usual, sitting at my feet licking my toes and Nancy, my 4 year old brindle fool is staring at the television, she doesn't usually like the music channel, she prefers animal documentaries.
They all get along very well, the pecking order has been well sorted from the start, with me firmly in place as alpha dog. Cleo has retired as alpha female and nancy has taken over. reggie is second in line for top position and he will get it from nancy without a fight, he's a gentleman but he knows how to intimidate her.
I have focused the dog's gameness on hunting and have socialised them all with other dogs as pups, they show no real interest in fighting and love people.
I think it would be a shame for the breed as a whole if dogfighting was totally stamped out because the pitbull would eventually just become another dog that looks a bit like the old dog of fame and history. This would, in turn, eventually affect the dog's whole attitude and charisma and we would have a watered down version of a dog that is terrific right now.

[ArtfulDodger]

The dogs of yesteryear are VERY different to the dogs of today, in alot if not most cases.
The exceptions to the rule are predominantly the hunting dogs, pointers, spaniels, foxhounds, blueticks, lurchers, greyhounds etc and the fighting and guard dogs, pitbulls, tosa,staffordshire bulls, rottwiellers, german sheps etc.
I believe a good pitbull today would be very similar to a half decent pitbull 200 years ago.
I also believe that the reason this is so is because there is a thriving underworld dogfighting subculture that is still breeding for gameness, thus keeping the dog as similar as is possible in temperement to it's ancestors.

I buy my dogs from a breeder with a " good" reputation, I buy from him because although I don't EVER fight my dogs, I do take them pig hunting and a dog NEEDS to be game and up for it if he's going to have a crack at a big boar.
I could buy my dogs from a nice family but it would be cruel to the dog to take him out on pigs if he's not up to it and I couldn't be confident that the nice family that had bred the dog I am buying, had bred for gameness or looks.
My dogs, from the guy with the good rep, will attack a big boar and hold him without any fear. They wag their tails the whole time and absolutely love the whole thing no matter how much the boar throws them around, they won't quit until I physically remove them, even then they are straining to get back to the dead boar. I've had other pits over the years from newspaper breeders and, although lovely dogs, they sometimes lost their bottle when they came across a larger than usual pig and wouldn't be keen to get in there and grab it. If you're thinking I am sitting in a car somewhere watching the action by remote I can assure you I too am in considerable danger from an angry pig and in order to not get killed myself I must be able to count on my grab dogs. I despatch the pig by a long knife straight into the heart, very quick death, the pig immediately collapses. As you can imagine this would be an extremely difficult thing to do if the pig wasn't being held by dogs.
These dogs are not snarling, slobbering whirlwinds chained to a post near a 45 gallon drum kennel. I can see Reggie now, he's my new boy, he's nearly 2. He's on his back snoring on the couch with one of my cats curled up near his head. Cleo, my 12 year old retired matron is, as usual, sitting at my feet licking my toes and Nancy, my 4 year old brindle fool is staring at the television, she doesn't usually like the music channel, she prefers animal documentaries.
They all get along very well, the pecking order has been well sorted from the start, with me firmly in place as alpha dog. Cleo has retired as alpha female and nancy has taken over. reggie is second in line for top position and he will get it from nancy without a fight, he's a gentleman but he knows how to intimidate her.
I have focused the dog's gameness on hunting and have socialised them all with other dogs as pups, they show no real interest in fighting and love people.
I think it would be a shame for the breed as a whole if dogfighting was totally stamped out because the pitbull would eventually just become another dog that looks a bit like the old dog of fame and history. This would, in turn, eventually affect the dog's whole attitude and charisma and we would have a watered down version of a dog that is terrific right now.
Sorry I have ranted again

[ShadyLady]

I think herding dogs such as b/collies and kelpies have kept a lot of natural traits .Although it gets up my nose that people breed for showing with no thought on instinct thats one quick way to ruin a breed (I know we've had this disagreement before Bensam)
Artful dodger why cant these types of game dogs be brought from a fellow hunter ,why does it have to be a dog fighter (if that is where you mean you get your dogs from) I dont pretend to understand dog fighting infact I think it is cruel but that is just my opinion and I can see your point of view about breeding to keep certain traits alive and well

[ArtfulDodger]

Working Koolie, I agree that some herd dogs are still faithful to their roots Koolies too I believe.
The main reason I don't get my dogs from other hunters is because hunters usually mix the pitbulls with other things, eg greyhounds, whippets, pointers, beagles etc. Or they, like me, buy pitbulls and the like as catch/grab dogs rather than breed them themselves. I think it might be because there are enough fighting lines out there to be able to have a good chance at finding a good catch dog when you buy from such a breeder. The main problem with buying from a fighting type of breeder is that sometimes they are so inbred they can suffer personality defects but the guy I buy from now has a very healthy and robust line, he keeps the blood topped up with new dogs. I must stress that this guy's good reputation is just a rumour, I can't say with any certainty that he fights his dogs. I can say with great certainty however that they all have made great pigdogs. I must stress again that I do not fight my dogs, they get enough fun out of hunting pigs, it's a great fun thing for the whole family. 8)
It seems like every hunter has a certain mix of dog that they will swear black and blue is the greatest pig finder this side of the black stump. But, for a catch/grab dog they always seem to have a pitbull, staff, english bull terrier and even boxer or ridgeback on hand to add some muscle.
I like the pure pitbull, you can rely on it 100% in a crisis with a big, angry pig.

[alicat613]

Great Danes were bred for boar hunting, not fighting lions. From this, they get the cropped ear, so the boars could not grab the ears, the thick neck and tough neck skin, size/height. The changes you see in the breed come from individual breeders interpretations of the standard and personal tastes. The Euro Danes have a definite more "mastiff-y" appearance, much more jowl and head. In Europe the overall preference is to breed for the heads and other aspects which are highly valued here in the US/Canada are less important to them, topline, etc. Here typically Danes are more graceful, although you will still see a wide variety among lines, from Danes that to me even the males look "bitchy", very slender and more greyhoundey, even ranging to more Euro looking.

FYI the lion fighting dog is the Rhodesian Ridgeback.

[Guest Anonymous]

Deepseasnake wrote:
[quote]maybe Im more upset that we as people are ruining these breeds that for so long were so good at what we are taking away from them. if that makes any sense[/quote]

I agree about that Deep. My mom and I were talking about if in the future, once my "doggy career" gets goin, and if I ever decide to breeds dogs (probably the BC, or maybe a breed that REALLY needs it, like the Great Dane or something), to get two puppies from a good breeder, and start them on the BARF diet right away. Then their next litter, and so on. by the time say the... 5th litter they would be SO HEALTHY! Although if someone bought them, I would have to convince them to keep the puppy on the BARD diet of course. The way we feed our dogs now have really given them a lot of problems... so many dog food companies clam there's Real Beef and such in their products, when really, your lucky if there's ANY in there! I deeply believe that nutrition is the biggest link to doggy (and human) problems. My dog has improved SO much since I've started her on the diet, and that was just in the summer!! If everyone fed their dogs like this, I'm sure they wouldn't have so many joint problems and such.
I'm really against animal cruelty in all ways, even killing for sport, although I will still eat steak and such, but I just try really hard not to think of what it's from :( But when you think about it, tossing a ball for your dog kicks in the same instincts as when hunting! Their just not killing the "animal", but there's still the great game of chase!!
I'll also sometimes take Hazel out in the bushes and tell her to search for things and play around there, trying to keep her natural instincts as a dog going! :D

[ArtfulDodger]

If I had the acreage I would try to breed a line of pitbulls specifically for gameness in hunting and a good pack instinct (although I hear the dogo de'argentina has those traits??). I would be doing my bit for the anti dogfighting cause but the reality is that gameness is gameness; whether it's gameness going in after a pig twice your size, even though experience has told you that you've really got your work cut out for you, or gameness fighting another dog and copping a real beating for a couple of hours and still be ready to fight on.
Pig hunting doesn't take anywhere near as much toll on a dog as a fight would, unless you were an idiot and went for a big pig with just one dog. I have never lost a dog to a pig, there have been a few bruised and bloody dogs come home but they LOVE it. I can say that with 100% certainty, they LOVE to hunt. When we're getting ready to go to the bush the dogs know well before hand and become almost manic. When they see the protective leather chest plates and leads they become positively orgasmic.
Once on the ground, and the find dogs are rooting out the pigs, the catch dogs switch into professional mode and are the picure of concentration. Most dogs love hunting, from a shitzu to a st bernard, and I personally believe that a dog develops a real maturity once it has done what it is designed to do by nature, hunt, kill and eat something in a pack environment.

Why do we human's insist on anthropormorphising dogs?? ( ie giving them our attributes rather than accepting them as what they are, DOGS)


Maybe if hunting really took off as a sport there would be good hunting kennels from where to buy a dog, but until then you can buy from a known breeder. Some breeders just breed a certain line of dog and sell them innocently enough, it's the buyers who buy for the temprement, a line of known fight winners will soon be known to have come from a certain kennel and fighting guys will go to that kennel to buy or to start their own kennel from that bloodline. It's a never ending story.
This temprement can be used in pitbulls for all sorts of things, doesn't HAVE to be focused on fighting. Weightpulling, hunting, shutzhund, agility, frisbee competitions, herding (yes, herding) and the best one of all, devoted family pet and protector.

[Guest roo]

[quote name='alicat613']. The Euro Danes have a definite more "mastiff-y" appearance, much more jowl and head. In Europe the overall preference is to breed for the heads and other aspects which are highly valued here in the US/Canada are less important to them.

.[/quote]

I will admit that the US danes are more rangey than the european type.
But then the origins of the breed needed substance and power as well as size.

But a dane is not just a head :wink:
I have never ever bred only looking at heads and forgetting all else, every part of the breed standard helps make the breed what it is.

[Guest roo]

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']Deepseasnake wrote:
[quote]maybe Im more upset that we as people are ruining these breeds that for so long were so good at what we are taking away from them. if that makes any sense[/quote]

I agree about that Deep. My mom and I were talking about if in the future, once my "doggy career" gets goin, and if I ever decide to breeds dogs (probably the BC, or maybe a breed that REALLY needs it, like the Great Dane or something), to get two puppies from a good breeder, and start them on the BARF diet right away. Then their next litter, and so on. by the time say the... 5th litter they would be SO HEALTHY! Although if someone bought them, I would have to convince them to keep the puppy on the BARD diet of course. The way we feed our dogs now have really given them a lot of problems... so many dog food companies clam there's Real Beef and such in their products, when really, your lucky if there's ANY in there! I deeply believe that nutrition is the biggest link to doggy (and human) problems. My dog has improved SO much since I've started her on the diet, and that was just in the summer!! If everyone fed their dogs like this, I'm sure they wouldn't have so many joint problems and such.
I'm really against animal cruelty in all ways, even killing for sport, although I will still eat steak and such, but I just try really hard not to think of what it's from :( But when you think about it, tossing a ball for your dog kicks in the same instincts as when hunting! Their just not killing the "animal", but there's still the great game of chase!!
I'll also sometimes take Hazel out in the bushes and tell her to search for things and play around there, trying to keep her natural instincts as a dog going! :D[/quote]

Just out of interest Hazel
What makes you think the Great Dane really needs help :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

AD---Have you ever heard of Catahoula (sp?) Leopard Dogs? They are used on pigs, although I'm not sure to what extent. I think they are very hard workers, real intelligent, super loyal, very protective, etc. I know you like your gamebred pits, but maybe this breed is worth a look???

I understand why, but dog fighting really gets to me. I don't feel dogs are human in any way, but they can and do feel pain. Letting dogs be dogs works both ways...

Connie

[Guest Anonymous]

I love dogs because they are not human! :lol:

Connie

[Guest Anonymous]

I love dogs because they are not human, believe me! :lol:

Connie

[alicat613]

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']Deepseasnake wrote:
[quote]maybe Im more upset that we as people are ruining these breeds that for so long were so good at what we are taking away from them. if that makes any sense[/quote]

I agree about that Deep. My mom and I were talking about if in the future, once my "doggy career" gets goin, and if I ever decide to breeds dogs (probably the BC, or maybe a breed that REALLY needs it, like the Great Dane or something), to get two puppies from a good breeder, and start them on the BARF diet right away. Then their next litter, and so on. by the time say the... 5th litter they would be SO HEALTHY! Although if someone bought them, I would have to convince them to keep the puppy on the BARD diet of course. The way we feed our dogs now have really given them a lot of problems... so many dog food companies clam there's Real Beef and such in their products, when really, your lucky if there's ANY in there! I deeply believe that nutrition is the biggest link to doggy (and human) problems. My dog has improved SO much since I've started her on the diet, and that was just in the summer!! If everyone fed their dogs like this, I'm sure they wouldn't have so many joint problems and such.[/quote]


?????

A breed that really needs it? What do you have to offer the Dane breed? There are plenty of wonderful reputable breeders improving the breed through years and years of hard work, research, and yes, many do BARF.

How you can help stop the "downing" of any breed, is not to support bad breeders, not to support puppy mills, not to support the pet shops that sell puppies. Support the good breeders, and if you really want to breed, breed for love of the breed. But first, find a mentor, learn the breed, learn lines, learn genetics, show, etc etc etc.

As far as joint problems, very few from a good breeder have joint problems. The dogs you are talking about come from bad breedings, mostly.

[deepseasnake]

[quote]But first, find a mentor, learn the breed, learn lines, learn genetics,[b] show[/b], etc etc etc.[/quote]

Given Im not very educated on showing dogs just really based my own opinions off others opinions and what not.
Dont you think that "show" dogs are the problem here? Not [b]all[/b] show dogs but in general, breeding for looks not function. I mean look at the "hobbit type dogs" kelpie type dogs in show are like a whole differant breed than the dogs that run Hobbits farm. Again Ive never owned or used a hearding dog but from what Ive heard show dogs cant heard at all compared to a working line. Ive read similiar things about retrievers and labs.

and while I may not agree with the humanitarian aspect of ADs hunting hogs, at least he is letting his dogs have an outlet for their instincts and it is keeping them in a natural performance shape.
It seems to me AD is helping the breed way more than someone who is breeding for looks or show

[alicat613]

I don't know any breeders who only breed for looks or show. They breed for health, temperament, soundness of body, and conformation according to their tastes and preferences as understood within the standard. I believe showing helps you understand the conformation better than anything else. I don't believe you have to breed for useless or meaningless traits to show and breed for show. BUT since I'm a Dane person, I'll talk Danes. Danes really have no function any longer. They are in the working class, but are technically IMO a non-sporting or misc breed. I mean, who goes boar hunting anymore? There are a few who compete in other areas than conformation, several lines actually aim for this, but overall, a Dane is a house pet, and has no other "use" than to be your buddy. So I guess what I'm getting at is what do you think they should be breeding for?

I agree with what you said, I see a lot of dogs on the Tv dog shows that are not as "cute" as others I see who are not show dogs, of the same breed, but I don't think that's true for all breeds.

There are some breeds who have such genetic functions, like the herders, that they still have those instincts, and other dogs like GSDs often used in police work, etc, but what about all the dogs who no longer have a true function now that the world is so changed? As all things do, they evolve, and how is that a bad thing? I really can't imagine a "use" for many breeds, like Great Danes, Chihuahuas, Maltese, Mastiffs, etc.

(PS as sometimes I have a problem expressing my tone in written form, just so you know, I'm not arguing with you or whatever, I'm just curious what your answers are. )

[Guest Anonymous]

for a vast number of the present canines there just is no room for them to do thier old tasks any longer we have found faster are better ways to get the job done.... are you saying that since they arr no longer needed they should be eliminated? if that is the case the only dogs that would still be around are are toy breeds, and a few other various companion only animals, all dogs were devised to have a job and when they were fazed out by human enginuity we kept them on because we liked them. The might mastiffs are more than capable of killing a man, APBTs can still fight, many of the breeds never lose the instinct to do thier bred task, they just dont need to, and in most cases a good owner doesnt want them to either.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, Great Danes are known to have a lot of health problems. I do love the breed, and I would only really breed a dog if I knew I had the knowledge etc. It was just a "what if?" sorta thing that my mom and I were talking about. In my "dog life" in the future, I'd prefer to work with aggressive/behavior problemed dogs actually. But I'm saying MAYBE if I felt I wanted to take up breed that's what I would do. I'd more then likely breed Border Collies though, I really like them :D
I don't support puppy mills and such, and I do know that there's a lot of good breeders out there! I think that's great there's those out there trying to improve the breed!! It would be nice to have more though, but I would only be one of those "more" if I knew what i was doing.
I don't really like showing either... yeah, the dogs and handlers look like they have a LOT of fun! And I'll watch the Wesminister (sp) Kennel Club Dog Show whenever it's on, the dog's are bueatiful! But I love the sports more, like Agility, Sledding, Lure Crossing, etc. Their more exciting! And show more of the true DOG.

[alicat613]

I do think every breeder should show, simply to learn as much as they can about the varying form and function of the breed.

I think you are a bit misinformed about Danes. They have fewer health problems than many breeds when they come from a reputable breeder. Yes, they are prone to hip dysplasia when poorly bred, but rare in well bred danes from OFAd parents. They are prone to growth problems when given to a family that does not know how to care for them.

[Guest Anonymous]

Maybe I am... just most stories and stuff I've heard about Danes then they had to be put down at an early age, or just plain suffered from different problems.
Actually, there's a story I read, it's true writen by the owner of the Dane, it's REALLY sad, but it's also really good... although I know in THIS story what happened to the dog is rare!! The books called "Amazing Gracie" and it's by... the same people that dog the Three Dog Bakery... wish I could remember their names! sorry.

[deepseasnake]

in response to Rotten,
I dont think a breed should be eliminated but I do think we should cater a sport or activity for a dog whose service is no longer needed.
things like flyball and those swing rope things for pits. pulling and mushing are still around just because people still like the ride and the race. Dalmations have those little get togethers where they run with carrages and what not. Its not necessary to doom a dog breed to walking in a circle while keeping their back straight we can accomodate these dogs somehow it just may take some creative thinking and a bit of will.

Ali
what exactly is conformation? I believe it is a set up standard that the dogs must meet to be able to compete in shows, right? I dont really know but that is what Ill go on until Im told differantly.
if a dog if conformed to a standard that reflects the ability to look pretty while trotting in circles doesnt that include the exclusion of certain other maybe "undesirable " traits in reguard to the show circut that may benefit the dog in a more natural environment. Maybe its pivitable things I am talking about, I dont know shows or Danes but I know that the health problems that occur now werent an issue back when a specific breed did what it was meant to. Ill bet Mastinos are a better example than danes but I dont know maybe danes are totally exempt from what Im talking about

I mean, who goes boar hunting anymore?
[url]http://www.a-wild-boar-hog-hunting-florida-guide-service.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.guidedventures.com/Wild%20Boar%20Hog%20Hunting.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.gamecalls.net/fieldreports/hoghuntingflorida.html[/url]
[url]http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/1599/hogcatchingphotos.html[/url]
[url]http://www.fourseasonshunting.org/hog.htm[/url]

hog hunting is still quite popular wherever there are hogs, there are no hogs in washington but down in the areas there are it is still, to my understanding a thriving sport, however I've never seen danes hunting hogs

I agree with the lack of tone in a written message, Im not trying to argue either, just understand usually Im just missing information so thats what Im looking for

[Guest roo]

Deep,
i am going to start a topic for you :lol:
In the showing section, where you can ask questions to your hearts content and we will all answer then to the best of our capability :lol:
Ok
Roo :evilbat: