Aggressive Golden?

[bk_blue]

Yesterday at the dog park there was a very handsome Golden Retriever I'd never seen before, on a lead with his owner, in the off-lead bit. He was let off the lead and allowed to socialise with the other dogs that were there at the time. BK went up to him and they greeted each other, but the instant that he tried to mount him (standard BK greeting, which I am in the process of correcting!) this dog went absolutely *beserk*, far beyond the realm of a normal "bugger off I'm not interested" rebuttal. The Golden was all teeth, growling and lunging at BK's throat, and this stirred BK up too, and he started trying to defend himself, and the owner intervened and picked his dog up (!!). I grabbed BK by his scruff, held him and made him sit. I apologised to the owner (even though I was sure it was not all my dog's fault), he accepted my apology, put the dog back on his lead and left. I let BK go after the dog had disappeared out of sight and he was fine after that with all the other dogs. As I said I'm trying my best to cure BK of his dominance mounting, but that's the first dog who's reacted so badly. There are plenty of other Goldens there that are beautifully behaved and certainly don't react like that to any dog mounting them.
Was the Golden overly aggressive? what do you guys think? I feel sorry for the Golden- if it does that every time it's off the lead then how is it ever going to learn to socialise properly? The owner also said to his dog, "no, you don't like it when other dogs do that do you!" which suggests that the incident wasn't a one-off... :-?

[Guest Anonymous]

I would say he wasn't to agressive for the owner to reach in and just pick him up..Brave man...

Maybe the Golden likes to be the domainant one.. :D I have met several dogs who growl at first then if the hint is not taken fly off the handle... It is no secret that Goldens are being over bred and temperment not being taken into perspective. Whether or not this is one of those cases I could not say but I can say that all dogs have quirks just like people and BK found this dogs!! :wink:

Bad owner for not correcting his dogs behavior!! Are you sure it was a male??? :-? :D

[bk_blue]

Yes, it was a male named Tom (the dog, not the owner ;))
BK has been in similar situations before but nothing so aggressive as that, and usually if the dog gives a warning growl he'll back off, and there are a few dogs that don't get along with him, in that respect they're just like humans! This dog just went for him straight out. I've seen BK several times with a male neutered Pointer and they have slugged it out for top dog, but once that's been established (the Pointer always wins!) they frolick about like best friends... so whether the same thing would have happened here given time I don't know. I'd like to think so, but if the owner had to reach in and grab his dog then that also suggests that he didn't really trust him maybe because he'd done it before? (brave yes, but a good way to get your arm or face turned into mincemeat :o )
The dog was also an adult, as in fully grown. Whether he was neutered or not I don't know, if he was entire it may have made a difference in his aggression...

[Guest Anonymous]

Mincemeat was exactly what I was thinking!! My guess is for not neutered...and shouldn't be of leash...will not make good service dog either :-?

[Guest Anonymous]

Rhats roo Bad!! I rate it rhen goldens are mean!! it rakes us look bad rhen we r real nice!! my rneighbor is a pit bull and rhe is really rad recause people are rared or rer!! :cry:

[Hobbit]

[quote name='K']There are some out there who still believe no matter how wound up thier dog is it will know not to attack them in the process of attacking somebody/something else....does anyone here hold any belief in that???[/quote]


That is "Redirected Aggression". No belief in that whatsoever, and I have the scars to prove it!!

[Hobbit]

After re-reading my post :o ....it sounded like I meant that I didn't believe that a dog would accidently bite the master. That is not what I meant, I DO believe that they will.

I KNOW some dogs do re-direct aggression, because they are so mad and frustrated they tend to have tunnel vision and when you grab them, they bite before they look, because they instinctly think that it's another dog trying to grab them ----- and I still have the scars to prove that!

Puppies don't usually do this, it's usually the adults.

[bk_blue]

Thats a good question K, I was going to mention it in my post but forgot. I like to believe my own dog would never bite me (guess we all do), and so far he's never misdirected any aggression, but I just don't know for sure... and I don't really want to find out, like Hobbit! :roll: With an entire dog I'd be a little more worried just because they can be more aggressive in my limited experience with them. Would that be true?

[bk_blue]

:o K, I would have said water, I'm sure I've read that in a few books :oops: is that wrong, or just wrong when the dog is already "subdued"? (the site below also suggests water)

Taken from: [url]http://www.ccc.govt.nz/animals/DogFights.asp[/url]
TECHNIQUES SEPARATING TWO DOGS
If there are two people available, both dogs should have their hindquarters lifted off the ground and then be dragged backwards by the tail. This will confuse the dogs and may cause them to relax their grip on each other. If the hindquarters are not lifted first, the dog may anchor itself by its front feet. Further injuries can then be caused to the other dog. In dogs without tails, the hind legs should not be substituted for the tail, as the dog can easily turn around and bite the person holding it. Grabbing the head or shoulders of one or both dogs is dangerous unless the person doing so can get directly behind the dog's shoulders and have the strength to control its head.

Is that a helicopter manouevre? Me confused. :-?
This site suggests numerous ways to break up a fight, whether off-lead or on-lead. Of course it also says that knowing the signs of dog aggression that can lead to a fight is the best alternative of all! :wink:

[Hobbit]

bk -- you are absolutely right --- knowing and watching for signs of aggression and re-directing thier attention is the best. It sure is hard to do if the aggressing dog is OFF LEASH. A "blaster" horn works good. It makes an incrediably loud noise --- your ears will ring afterwards. But it gets their attention!

Even by grabbing the tail, the dog can still and will turn around and bite you. Also, grabbing the tail can break it.

If both dogs are wearing collars, timing is essential, two people are needed, if they are both going after it. If one has the other down, then the other person needs to be ready to take ahold of the one down and move him to safety or keep him from getting up and going after the other. While standing behind the dogs --- remember the dogs will be moving, this is why timing is essential, with hands outreached like you are going to grab the neck of the dog, hook your thumbs underneath the collar and grab the collar with your fingers and make a fist (around the collar) --- move your hands so that the pointer finger and thumb are up --- sqeeze and lift up on the collar and bring your hands together ------ CAUTION: this chokes the dog and this is exactly what you want to do. Use caution that you don't kill the dog, just get his attention. I may be blasted for this method, but when you've tried everything else and one dog is fixing to be killed --- this is an effective method. It should not be tried by anyone as you can get severely dog bitten. I have only had to use this method once in my lifetime, when a female Heeler had another female on the ground by the throat. She was choking the female on the ground. The female's eyes were going dull, she was doing the death gurgle --- I had no choice but to choke the aggressing dog down. I held on to the aggressor so she wouldn't start back up when she got her senses about her. This is an extreme method, used for extreme situations.

If a stray dog had my dog down and was tearing him up or fixing to kill him, I would use any method to get that dog off my dog, even if it meant shooting the aggressing dog. I understand that it may not be the aggressing dogs fault for his actions, but at that point --- kill or be killed, I wouldn't have time to assess his personality. My situation is different, I live in a very remote location --- if another dog is on my property, it's either a stray or a wild animal (coyote, wolf, etc...). And NO, if someone is wondering ---- we don't shoot strays if they are simply on our property playing around and being nice. We have Turkish Anatolian Shepherds (Livestock guardian dogs) that take great insult to another dog being in their territory.

I don't care what the book says --- there is no safe way to break up a dog fight. Yelling and screaming only makes matters worse, because it sounds like you are getting involved in the fight, too.

A LOUD air horn or other very LOUD noises will sometimes work, sometimes the dog has tunnel vision and is so intense that all other noises and sound is blocked out --- nothing works.

A dog fight, a real dog fight and not a fight over dominance, is nothing to be taken lightly.

[bk_blue]

Hobbit that was so informative. I really hope I never have to use your advice though, purely because I never want my dog, or any dog I see, to be in that situation.
I was initially a little concerned about the advice I found on grabbing the tail, because it wouldn't be hard to break it and since I was a kid I've had "don't pull a dog by its tail!" drummed into me. But I suppose a broken tail is a better outcome than your dog being maimed, or losing its life. :(
What would be the best method if there wasn't another person around to help you break up a fight?

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

:o Talk about giving the breed a bad name! :o

My bet is that it is either under socialized (from what I see, the owner seems to be PRAISING the dog after the fight! :o ), or that this dog is the result of a backyard breeder or a puppymiller or it is a petshop pup. :cry:

It's sad that it happned...Goldens are really sweet dogs...I should know i have one! But it just all goes to say that it's not the BREED of dog, just it's deed(or if the owner socializes it properley enough!) :lol:

[bk_blue]

I know Rowie, believe me there are so many Goldens that go to the same park and they are just wonderful dogs to be around (I don't really need to convince you, do I!). One in particular is a huge sook and comes and sits at my feet, waiting to be patted!

[Guest Anonymous]

Well done jacsmom for becomng a moderator!

My golden is the most perfectly behaved dogs and is often used to help socialise other aggresive dogs. As goldens are so intelligent they react accutly to other dogs/peoples feelings and body language thats why they are good theropy dogs. i'm afraid if your dog is mounting the it is bound to get attacked. The golden was putting your dog in its place. it is a worry that your dog trys to dominate on first meeting and other dogs will not put up with this sort of behaviour! If the golden had really gone for your dog then it would have injured your dog.

The worst thing to do is to touch fighting dogs because you will only make your dog want to defend you more. Grab the dogs back legs and drag them out of the fight.

[bk_blue]

I don't disagree with you. His mounting is a bad habit that I am in the process of fixing. But it was the very instant that he tried to do it that this other dog went for him in a way I have never [i]ever [/i]seen before, no warning signs or anything. If a dog does not like being mounted it will usually growl or have a little snap, and my dog gets the message and backs off. This was definitely different, you'd really have to have been there to see it. It was just so damn sudden and aggressive I didn't have a chance to do anything. As I said, I know Goldens are usually wonderful, placid dogs but I really thought this one was overly defensive/aggressive.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you Axel!

I will have to say that this Golden was probably not the norm for most Goldens though and it seems to happen more now with everyone breeding... Most dogs will growl and let it go at that and then for the owner to make the comment he did.. The owner should at least have him on a leash if he is going to react that way.. You take your dog to a dog park he is bound to at least try to mount or get mounted it is nature... :wink: If he reacts that way keep him on a leash heeled next to you!! Just my opinion! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't know if he is aggressive. But if he is a male dog who can blame him :)

[Guest Anonymous]

I think jacsmom is rite keep your dog on the lead around other dogs (not nessacarily all the time you are walking as i don't believe in constant on the lead walks unless you are running around chasing rabbits and up and down hills with you dog which i doubt very much! ha ha)

Contact a local trainer and ask if they have any dogs that are suitable to correct your dogs behaviour. there are certain things dogs can only learn from other dogs like social body language. keep ur dog on the lead in case there is a fight then you can pull him out without getting your hands in! Obv the trainer will have selected a dog that will put others in its place without hurting them. Don't intervene if the other dog goes to bite your dog simply allow the body language to settle down then walk away.

If he is over dominent then you should look to his socail status within the home. Don't allow hime in certain rooms of the house (never the bedroom) never allow him to jump on furniture. ignore him when you first walk into the room not even eye contact. Gesture eat outof his bowl so he can see who is boss this is all critical to him knowing his place and this will make hima happier dog as he will lead a less stressful life knowing he is not in charge and he will look to you as to how to react to ther dogs and you will be able to throw a ball or something to divert his attention!

The thing that annoys me about golden is the myth that surrounds them! Do you know the biggest child biters are retrievers because parents allow their children to treat them how they wish as they know they are 'good dogs with children' wheras most parents would not allow their child to run over to a rottie and throw their arms around it, you should realise this is the same with dog dog interactions dont just presume that the dog will be fine because its a golden it takes a lot of work to keep a golden happy as they are so hyper active and lack of excersise can lead them to aggression.

Just be thankful your dog is okay and unharmed and consider it a lesson learnt because at the end of the day a German Shepard can be the most loyal companion to a 3 yr old and be great with other dogs wheras a Labrador can still be wildly aggressive and dominent!

DON'T JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER! :roll:

:D i'm glad to see that you are so concerned for your dogs welfare tho and we need more people like you who care! :D

[bk_blue]

Thanks Axel and Jacsmom :)
I asked how I could stop his mounting today at obedience. The handler said to me that I must make my status as top dog unequivocally clear. Maybe I am not doing it forcefully enough? I think I will try keeping him on the lead, as much as he likes being off it so he can tire himself out! He isn't allowed inside, but I make him wait for me before going through doors, out of the car, before he eats dinner etc. I WISH he was interested in balls and frisbees, but he isn't... it would make things easier if he was... :D Believe me he knows he is not allowed to mount and looks guilty if I have to come marching over to pull him off another dog and scold him, but he has a one-track mind sometimes!!! :wink: (well, he is male :) )
I totally agree, there are good and bad dogs in every breed!!
Cockers can be IMO nippy. Our one was a bit grouchy sometimes, esepcially when she didn't want to have a bath ;) Bad breeding may have led to that nippiness in Cockers- I think it's called Cocker rage syndrome? The other breed that can be bitey is the Dachshund. Grandad has had a few over the past 25 years and they are feisty little things who will not hesitate to nip if they feel it is necessary ;)

[Guest Anonymous]

Having Cockers myself I know that mine are not nippy BUT temperment is something I look at very close in a Cocker... Cockers can be hyper... Kids tend to love the long hair and ears which in turn leads to pulling and tugging which then leads to nipping... I would not suggest them for small children who do not know how to treat animals or parents who will not take time with them to teach them... (Really an dog for that matter! :) )

[Guest Anonymous]

Sounds like you have got one hell of a dominent dog. I presume having him castrated is not a option you want to look at otherwise you would have already had it done right?

To get him interested in a ball everytime you are around him have one ball that is tough and unlikley to be destroyed and play with it yourself. just walk around throwing it up and down never letting him have it. every time you feed him produce it, everytime something good happens to your dog ie. walking, food ect get the ball out. He will start to associate the ball with good things whne he start to show and intersest in the ball allow him some limited contact with the ball. Continue like this for a while until he is so concentrated on this ball he will do anything for it then you can play normally with it but try making him sit/down ect before throwing it as the reward. Never let your dog have this toy when you are not around.

Tell me how you get on with the toy training!

[ShadyLady]

I dont think you can blame the golden for agression. My dog was in a similar situation he was the one getting mounted by the shearers dog and he reacted the same as the golden and yet my dog is well socialized and of a very friendly temperment I have 8 dogs and he never fights with any of them but what your dog was doing was very aggressive and I admit I wasnt happy with the shearer at the time. I felt he was just protecting himself . I am lucky though that I can call him out of that type of situation

[bk_blue]

Oh yeah, he has been fixed... 6 and a half years ago, when we got him at 6 mths... so if he [b]had[/b] balls they would be hangin' down to the ground :lol:
Mei-Mei, that is not a dumb solution- in fact it might work, I will try it and see... it might work as sitting would be quite a submissive thing for him to do...? He [i]is [/i]damn bloody dominant, but not bitey growly dominant, just wilful friendly dominant; does that make sense?
I do accept that his behaviour is not socially acceptable, that is why I am trying to fix it! I would have done something about it years ago if I had known, it's only come out in the last 6 mths or so that we have been going to this dog park. I really thought though that this Golden overreacted just a tad... but I'm doing the right thing now so all will hopefully be good ;)
Thanks Axel, I will try and get an indestructible ball (a bowling ball!! just kidding) like a Kong or something similar. He has to learn how to take and give a dumbbell for obedience anyway, so that will teach him how to take an interest in inanimate objects :D... thanks everyone for your advice, you have all been very helpful :)

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='working koolie']I dont think you can blame the golden for agression. My dog was in a similar situation he was the one getting mounted by the shearers dog and he reacted the same as the golden and yet my dog is well socialized and of a very friendly temperment I have 8 dogs and he never fights with any of them but what your dog was doing was very aggressive and I admit I wasnt happy with the shearer at the time. I felt he was just protecting himself . I am lucky though that I can call him out of that type of situation[/quote]

I wouldn't say blame him but if the owner knows how he reacts the owner should not only help to watch other dogs but keep his own on a leash.. It is kind of like driving a car you have to drive for others as well as for yourself... While it is a domainating trait (mounting), a properly trained Golden(such as yours) should be able to be called out of that... Picture if it was a guide dog or something of that nature.. :wink:

[bk_blue]

I thought that too Mei-Mei- but he was moving freely and not limping or anything. Who knows... I still haven't seen this dog at the park again and I go there 3-4 times a week. :-?