imported_Cassie

A friend of mine has a Collie which has just been diagnosed as having a massive bladder stone which fills almost the entire bladder. The Collie is going in for surgery and will be put on antibiotics and the vet told her that Bree will now have to be on a specially formulated food by Walthams for the rest of her life. The dog is young and healthy and my friend is concerned about additives in the formulated dog food. She was wondering if there are any alternative dog foods to feed, or if Walthams is good enough. She has just recently (about 1 month ago, learned of healthy dog foods, her dogs had all been Eukanuba dogs prior to this). She is a little upset that she is just starting to feed her dogs properly and now this. :-? So what she is wondering is if there is an alternative food which may have the same formula to prevent future stones. In our area what we have to choose from is, Solid Gold, Wellness, California naturals and Innovia (don't mind the spelling errors) The distributers are friends of ours so if any of this brands have a good food they make we can get them ordered in. If you require an ingredient list for the Walthams dog food formula I will stop by the vet clinic and write it down for you guys to review. Thanks for any advice, my friend is very limited in her research of dog foods as she does not own a computer.

[quote]Are you possibly talking about a DalmatiAn Cassie, because I've never heard of a DalmatiOn. [/quote] I was in a hurry and yes I did not spell Dalmatian properly. When I am in a hurry typing or when I get to a ""ti" it comes so naturally to put the "O" in there with out thinking about it. I also am not the best speller in the world. :oops: First off,all of the purebreds I have taken in have been KENNEL dogs all of their life prior to my taking them in. The adjustment from kennel life to home life has always been a little rocky...but, they have adjusted. I only spent two weeks with hogan before he was placed with another kennel...I was only "petsitting" so obviously I did not have the "time" or motivation to train him. I didn't know that my friend was trying to "place" him with me...I will say though that although he had been a kennel dog for the first 2 years of his life, he did not have any "house breaking accidents" inside my home...yes, he peed on my leg at the show...but, I've had a few males do that especially since there are too many rude people who bring their bitches in full season to the shows. I have many friends with Dal's and they do wonderful with thier Dal's and we also have many which come in for boarding which are sweet wonderful dogs. It's a whole different story when you can put the time into training a dog which I did not have to dedicate to hogan....plus, I didn't think I would have him any longer than 2 days at the most. All of my other dogs,even my 2 intact male Newf's were housebroken on day one. With all of my dogs I have put alot of work into them, they did not just "come" as the wonderful dogs they now are. You take a dog which was abandoned and starving which was "digging" through garbage cans to survive and bring it into your home and have it become a wonderful house dog. Beau makes me very proud, so does Athena my poor little Rottie who was left tied in a back yard. She adjusted to home life in 2 minutes :lol: I am very proud of all of my dogs, and I have had many many wonderful dogs over the years. Some which had been problem dogs in other homes and became my "best" dogs. [quote]but I strongly disagree that show dogs are kept in kennels the ones I know are spoilt rotten[/quote] Mouse, I should have been a little more clear on this one. I should have specified that " like most show dogs "[b]I know[/b]" they will end up living the remainder of their life in a kennel. I should not have implied that "all" show dogs end up in kennels for the remainder of their life :wink: I have 4 show dogs which lead a wonderful home life :wink: and there are alot of people with only 2-5 dogs which they keep in their home.

[quote]Do you think they are saving all their badness up for one big caper? [/quote] [b]Mei-Mei wrote[/b] Could it be that they are leading me like a lamb to the kill :o :lol: I have had many multie dog homes, I really feel blessed that I have never owned a problem dog...oh, except one :oops: Hillside will not like to hear this :lol: I was doggy sitting for a breeder friend of mine who breeds Dalmations. Like every other breeder I know they sneak one of their dogs into your home hoping that you will fall in love and keep the dog :wink: any way, the first week I had him he demolished my sofa, chewed apart my coffee table my brother had made me, tore every page out of my books etc. When I came home my Dobie, Great Pyrenees, Husky/shepherd mix and 2 Newfoundland dogs were sitting on the opposite side of the living room from the Dalmation...looking at him in horror :o the dalmation had the biggest grin on his devious little face and had appartently enjoyed himself immensely :lol: My other dogs always knew he was a bad seed :wink: I waited for my breeder friend to call me to ask for Hogan back, she called but asked I meet her at a dog show with hogan. When I got there he proceeded to pee on my leg, be his annoying hyper self and then take best in show. The breeder sold him to another kennel that day in the States for $10,000.00. I could never understand what was going through that persons head :-? but, as with most show dogs he probably lived the remainder of his life in a kennel and never given the opportunity to tear the new owners sofa apart. I wasn't about to match the price they offered though :lol: I think its the little things we do which can help our dogs settle in properly to their homes. I have never made a big deal about leaving the house, I have my dogs into a ritual...when I am leaving they know its their cue to sit beside the deep freeze for their raw meaty bone. Perhaps they look forward to my leaving :(

Some times I take my dogs good behavior so much for granted that a reality check is in order every once in awhile. :lol: :wink: As most people know I found my Dobie mix Beau running at large (he had been for quite some time and living of discarded food from a local gas station). My Rottie Athena was left tied in a back yard while her owner was in jail and a couple of drunks down the road dropped off an open bag of dog food every once in awhile. My Newf's were all kennel dogs and never lived in a house before I took them in...done with the history. :lol: Any way, when it rains or its a miserable day I leave Beau & Athena loose in my house, The Newf's are fine in my fenced in yard (I have a baby barn I insultated and made into a huge dog house). Since day one, neither Beau or Athena have never gotten into my garbage, never suffered from seperation aniexity, never wrecked any thing etc. I just took this for granted. Well, this weekend I was looking after my friends kennel and home. I brought all of my dogs. My Newf's I put back with my friends Newf's as my Newf's were born here and spent the 1st part of thier lives here so they are used to it. Beau & Athena are of course my presious little darlings who do not appreciate the kennel at all :lol: it was raining on Friday night and I had an appointment I had to keep. My friend doesnt mind Beau & Athena in her home...so I put some boxes down on her leather couch and chair and put some doggy beds down for Beau & Athena and went out...they had the run of my friends house. I never even thought about it until I was on my way back...I started having flashes of the house being torn apart as this is not my dogs home. I pulled into the drive way and ran into the house to find Beau and Athena curled up together sleeping :wink: I guess we never appreciate the good behavior our dogs can display. I guess it makes it extra special from the back grounds of these 2 dogs to see the wonderful behavior they have developed and how calm and trusting they are. I am back home now with all of my crew. They are always happy to be back in their own home.

Some times nosey neighbors are good, and some times they are just annoying. I know its a blow to the ego when you are accused of some thing that you would never dream of doing (in this case abuse). As every one else already told you, just ignore it and let it slide off your back. Heck, I have about 2 acres fenced off for my dogs and when I take them out they stick to me like glue...this doesnt stop people from calling me and telling me that one of my dogs is running at large in the neighborhood :roll: people know I have alot of dogs, so, when ever they see a dog loose they "assume" its one of my dogs :-? none of my dogs has ever been loose unsupervised...and in my yard they would have to scale a 7ft fence :lol: In defense of "some" nosey neighbors, I would never have gotten my little Rottie Athena if it werent for a nosey concerned neighbor. We also have gotten quite a few animals confiscated by the SPCA (dropped off at the vet clinic I work at) which were due to nosey neighbors calling to have the SPCA check out living conditions of some neighbors. Last week the SPCA dropped off 2 hedgehogs, a few rabbits, 10 cats, and 4 puppies from a girl who was keeping them in her apartment. The animals were half starved and malnourished, the puppies had actually eaten broken glass which was lying around the apartment. One of the puppies died, we were able to save the other 3.

[quote]Most of us dont have to have the "Alpha" tough guy attitude with our dogs. the majority of our dogs are quite happy with being more submissive, like Cassies. However, I have had to break dogs who became too dominate in a household situation. and the best way to do that is too become the pack alpha, even where there is no pack. Not threaten them, but take priveledges away, that only the alpha would normally get. that doesnt mean beat them into submission. you can use their own natural insticnts to stop them from thinking they are "top dog"....[/quote] Courtnek, first off I work with dogs daily and I have always owned a multie dog house hold. I have taken in adult dogs which had become spoiled and aggressive in other households. My Rottie and other dogs I have owned in the past could not be placed in normal homes after they were confiscated by the SPCA, thats how I ended up with them. Dogs have a hierarchy within their own species, but they do not have a hierarchy with humans in the same way. If I live with a dog, it does not view me as a dog. Teaching rules has nothing to do with hierarchy. Everybody is different and what rules one person has living with their dogs, another person wont have, we are all individuals but we need rules to live in harmony whether that's with our offspring, pets or even visitors in some cases. When we use the NIFIL policy or by taking priveledges away...this is not really using pack rules this policy can be used with any species. By with holding a childs toy, or grounding a child and taking away TV priveledges I am not demoting that child I am teaching house rules and keeping the child from becoming a spoiled little brat. A dog can also become a spoiled little brat, they are opportunist animals. [quote]The Dog In Your Living Room If you have a dog, are you the pack leader? Are you sure that with Mum, Dad, 2.4 children and a dog, the dog has the lowest status in the pack? For many years now dog owners have been told they must be the pack leader. Everyone in the family must be dominant over the dog, or it may become dominant over them. Any sign of human weakness, and a dog with a dominant disposition may take advantage and make a bid for a higher status within the 'pack'. This, we are told, is likely to lead to behavioural problems or the dog being stubborn in obeying commands. If this were to happen we were advised to implement a Rank Reduction Programme which includes, amongst other things, eating something before feeding the dog, not allowing him to sleep on your bed, not playing games of tug, and not allowing him through doorways first. In addition, as the dog's ancestor is the wolf, the Rank Reduction Programme is based on wolf behaviour, despite the fact we have a dog in our living room, not a wolf. New research and new theories on dog behaviour have recently come to the fore, so out of interest let's look at a dog's life from a different perspective. The first question we have to consider is whether the dog is a pack animal. According to ethologist Ray Coppinger, it isn't. He studied a group of feral dogs that lived in and around a village. They had all the means of survival readily available, food from the village dumps, water, and shelter so there was no reason for them to form a pack. They lived semi-solitary lives or in small groups, probably mum and her offspring. We know dogs are social animals, as are we, which is why we can live together under the same roof. So on the basis of Coppinger's research, as we provide our dog with sufficient food, water is always available, they have five star accommodation, exercise is provided and their health cared for, why would they form a pack with us? Another aspect of the pack theory is that packs tend to be conspecific; in other words they are made up of the same species. Therefore dogs and people cannot form a pack in the true sense of the word; a social group yes, but not a pack. Dogs don't think like us, behave like us, smell like us, or live by the same values as us. Given these facts, shouldn't we be questioning whether our dog in the living room really is looking for opportunities to raise its status? Before his sad, untimely death, John Fisher was starting to question whether dogs perceived themselves as part of our pack and whether they should live by the pack rules that would supposedly reinforce our position as pack leader. Regrettably, he didn't have the opportunity to put too much in writing about his modified views, although one of the few things he did publish was "...if it's how you want to live with your dog I have news that is going to disappoint a lot of people who have striven to reach Alpha status - it all means diddly squat to your dog." I think it's worth questioning some of the pack rules we have been told over the years about how to bring up a dog to prevent it from becoming dominant. Bear in mind though that the rules are based on how wolves behave and not how our domestic dogs behave. * Eat something before feeding the dog, because the Alpha always eats first. So we get our new puppy home, call the family together, eat a biscuit, then put the pup's food down. What is the pup really going to understand from that? Not a lot! According to research by David Mech, in a free roaming wolf pack, if the kill is big enough, there is no 'pecking order', and all the wolves would get stuck in. If food were in short supply, the pups' would eat first. The dam has invested 50% of her genes in her puppies and to ensure their survival she would go without food herself. Our behaviour in making the puppy wait may cause it stress or we might encourage it to jump up in order to get its food. * Go through doorways before the pup because subservient wolves stand aside to allow the Alpha wolf to go through small openings first. As canine-to-canine communication is different to canine-to-human communication, is the pup going to understand the message behind this behaviour? We cannot mimic a dog's body language or facial expression so the true reasoning behind this rule will be lost to the dog. * A dog that pulls on the lead is attempting to take charge of the walk, just as a dominant wolf will decide where the pack will go. OK, so a dog walking to the park is pulling on the lead, as it's so excited at the prospect of having a good run. On the way home, when it's tired, it's walking on a loose lead. Should we then deduce that the dog is being dominant on the way to the park and subservient on the way home? Common sense says not. The comparison between our dogs' behaviour and wolf behaviour is misleading. Although the dog evolved from the wolf, the wolf has changed very little. We on the other hand have produced breeds of all shapes and sizes. We have breeds with different coat colours, types of coat, length and even no coat at all. We have dogs with different gaits, tail and ear positions. We have bred dogs to help man for guarding, retrieving, herding, pulling, sledges, hunting and just lapdogs. The dog's brain has changed; it's smaller than a wolf's. It has a different conformation, different innate motor patterns, drives and motivations. A dog is not a wolf in dog's clothing; it's simply a dog! There are of course no guarantees that a dog will not develop behavioural problems, but there are steps you can take to minimise the risk. Choose a puppy from a breeder who rears the pups indoors so they can start to become accustomed to household noises and the comings and goings of people to the house. The breeder should also start off the socialisation process, which must continue when it gets to its new home. Teach it house rules so it knows what it can do and what it can't do. If a large, hairy adult dog is not appreciated lying on the sofa, don't encourage it when it's a puppy. Start basic obedience training straight away using motivational reward-based methods, so the pup ends up being a sociable, well behaved dog with manners. We don't have to be Alpha, dominant or pack leader, and neither does our dog. All we need to be is an owner responsible for guiding our dog, shaping and influencing its behaviour through correct socialisation and training so they can live in harmony with us. Author Barry Eaton [/quote] [b]Seijun said[/b] [quote]Actually, the people who work with and train wolves HAVE to train them by being alpha. For wolves, pack position is extremely important. If you are working with a wolf pack, you HAVE to be the alpha. Serious dominance challenges in wild packs rarely occur, and serious challenges on an alpha wolf are even rarer. If you let a wolf be YOUR alpha, it could be very dangerous trying to reclaim alpha position, and dangerous to stay submissive because alpha wolves often correct submissive wolves through methods that could draw blood on a fragile human. People who I know who work with wolves who have become dominant over humans are often forced to never go into the pen with that wolf ever again because of the potential danger of the wolf exhibiting dominant behaviors towards the humans.[/quote] [b]Director of Wolf park Erich Klinghammer quote[/b] [quote]No one at wolf park-least of all the handlers-is ever fooled into believing the adult wolves are pets. In fact, handlers operate as if they are entering the wolves world, and they behave within the social rules of woves. They are carefully taught how to work with the wolves without antagonistic confrontations. [b]The handler does not try to behave like a pack leader and make the wolves submissive[/b]. [/quote] [quote]I have seen many, MANY cases where owners try to treat the dogs as equals and let them do whatever they want, this is the same thing as telling the dog that you are not willing to take the alpha position, and therefore they should fill it in. The situation turns dangerous when the dog begins trying to "correct" the owner for exhibiting "bad" behavior.[/quote] No one ever said we were treating our dogs as equals, I am just stating that my dogs do not view me as a member of their species. I set rules for my dogs just as I would any other animal or human. I find the whole Alpha pack mentality of training to be very misleading and most dogs I have witnessed from owners with this mode of training have dogs which are confused as most people do try to dominate their dogs. Instead of referring to wolf packs and the pack mentality when I am helping clients deal with an agressive/spoiled dog I advise them on the bases of the dog being a dog. [quote]Dog puppies, for instance, can be just like little kids, they can be brats and just like with a kid, being nice won't always work. With pupies, you sometimes HAVE to use wolf-pack based training through dominance. Even mother dogs will discipline their puppies through dominant behaviors such as scruff shakes and muzzle holds, depending on how badly the puppy was behaving. [/quote] :o I have whelped hundreds of litters of pups, and have helped raise many many litters including my own dogs last litter. Never once have I seen a mother dog scruff shake or muzzle hold, usually when the pups start getting rowdy momma dog leaves the whelping box. With the pups; the pup who gets rowdy and gets too rough looses his/her play mates. The other pup will screetch and won't play with the other pup for awhile. Thus the other pup learns to be more gentle. A good example of the social system of dogs is sled dogs [quote]On a 12-16 dog team, the leaders are usually paired. The leaders can be paired as males or females. What does that do to the theory of the alpha dog? 2 females alpha dogs? A dogs team with good depth has many leaders. It has alternates that the driver can substitute up front to replace animals too tired to keep a winning pace. Dogs are not wolves. Dogs are not running as a pack. A pack is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running. They are motivated by something the animal behaviorists call social facilitation. The structure and behavior of a dog may superficially resemble that of wolves, but in fact, to focus on similarities does the dogs a great disservice. Sled dogs are an evolutionary advancement over wolves. Sled dogs are as close to an evolutionary perfection as you can get. They do something better than any other organism. [/quote] Any way, I am not disputing the fact that all animals living in a social organization need rules. I just think that people should concentrate more on dogs being dogs and how to train dogs rather than trying to study wolves to learn about dogs. I really have seen alot of harm done to many many dogs by people who have some misguided information about pack rules and how to apply them to our dogs. There have been alot of very confused dogs out there which do not have a clue of what their owners are trying to do. Dominance may work quickly in some situations, but, in the long run its just not worth it.

[quote]dogs are not wolves, and their reactions are somewhat more intuned to people, but the instincts are still there. But I do believe they need a strong hand and voice, to teach them what is proper and allowed for them to do[/quote]. I don't exactly understand what you mean by this. With all of my dogs I used only positive training...my Newfoundlands would not understand a strong hand and voice. I have to be happy and encouraging for them to have become top performers especially in the obedience ring. It was a strong hand and voice which almost ruined my Rottweiler. I had to use only positive happy training to make her into the wonderful canine citizen she is today. As mentioned before I could apply this same training to children and employees as well as other animals. I have seen too many people ruin dogs by trying to dominant their dogs...it has always turned out very badly for the dog. I don't know if that is what you meant about training with a strong hand and voice if you were referring to dominanting the dogs or not. I never found that type of training worked ver well.

Courtnek, I don't treat my dogs as if they were a pack. I treat my dogs like the scavengers they are. My dogs do not consider me to be an Alpha any thing, the view me as the provider of food or the host and my dogs are my parasites. My dogs live in a happy group, not a pack. People apply the same training procedures such as click and treat for other species such as killer whales to train them. It seems to work well with many species of animals to use a reward based system to train and teach good manners. Last I heard wolves do not make the other wolves sit before eating or many of the other training exercises I perform with my dogs :lol: . People who have studied dogs which still live as wild dogs which are not domesticated by man live semi solitary lives. Dogs do not require packs to eat discarded food left by humans. It just seems funny to me that we have been living with dogs for thousands of years and we still have to refer to wolves in order to explain different behaviors :-? :roll: . I perfer to refer to my dogs as dogs, I don't need to refer to wolves when explaining a behavior or behavioral problem as it is a dog issue not a wolf issue. Our dogs evolved not to be wolves, and I think alot of people screw their dogs up by misinterpreting pack and wolf behaviors. [quote]as far as pack rules, I honestly think most households exercise them without even realizing they are doing it. You are the one providing the food, shelter and affection, and in return you expect the dogs to obey you and do what they're told. That's basically the way a pack works. Everyone agrees to get along, because it's in everyone's best interests to do so. Contrary to popular culture, most packs dont fight with each other (other than the occasional squabble, which is usually all show anyway, even pet dogs do that sometimes; mine do) and the Alpha is more of the "benevolent King" type, rather than the popular notion of nasty and vicious. [/quote] When you think about how we train our dogs and how many species of animals can be trained the same way...why do we always have to refer to the training as a pack thing, or wolf behavior. The reward based system works well with all species, they do this training with humans all of the time...you make your quota in sales this month and you will get a cash bonus, you work hard and you get a raise etc etc. it motivates us to perform better and gives us some thing to strive for. Your child gets good grades in school he may get a bike etc. these rules can apply to alot of different species.

[quote]I figured that wild canids would be competition and greatly feared and loathed by early man, and so couldn't really see the logic of going out of their way to bring these animals into their lives. [/quote] Canis erectus, that is exactly what they explain in this book called Dogs. It would have been very difficult for our ancestors to have fallen in love with a wolf pup and raise it to be a pet. Just think about how many people have tried and failed to tame our current wild wolves in todays world where we have more time to spend trying. It would have taken many many generations and determination. I think our forefathers were more concerned about survival than making pets. In this book they explain that humans provided the niche wild candids required to domesticate themselves. Once humans had permanent settlements and started leaving waste in one place this helped to evolve some wild candids to hang around these settlements and live basically as scavengers. They learned to live amoung humans without being feared and to follow their food source. There are wild Canines which still live in villages all over the world which have never been domesticated, they look a great deal like hound dogs. The people in some villages value chickens and let them run loose throughout the villages, these dogs will not touch these chickens even though they are hungrey they know that to survive you don't touch "some" things. I find dogs very interesting and after you read the book every thing makes sense. It was very easy for man to look at the local genetically tame scavenger dogs which followed them to their fishing boats, lived in their back yards etc. to think about using them for different purposes. [quote]I've also wondered if the real ancestors of some dogs are "extinct" species that have simply evolved themselves into dogs and lost all of thier origional traits over time. I find it hard to swallow that all dogs and dogs breeds are the decendants of the European Wolf.[/quote] The book "Dogs" explains this in great detail. Basically our domestic dog is at most a distant cousin of our current wolves. I could go on but it would take me forever. The book is in detail and makes 190% more sense than I do :lol:

Just to add that acupuncture may be a good idea. When I tried acupuncture on my old Newf it was years ago when it was still a very new treatment. It has advanced greatly since I last tried it :wink: Good luck with Reba, she is very lucky to have such caring owners who are looking for the best for her. I would certainly try alternatives before resorting to a NSAID, you may be pleasantly surprised...I know I am when ever I look at my Rottie with HD and see how healthy and happy she is without resorting to NSAID's. [quote]I guess part of my worry is that she is so stoic and has shown so little clinical symptoms that I will never know when she's OK and when she is REALLY hurting, you know[/quote] That was my biggest concern about putting Athena on a NSAID...I find that these medications mask the pain and some dogs will over exert themselves creating more problems down the road. Reba's diet sounds wonderful, your doing a great job. :wink:

[quote]I've never agreed with using wolf pack rules and applying them to dogs. Dogs are nothing like wolves and most of our pets have never lived in any sort of wolf pack. I'm am not my dog's "Alpha" anything. He has no idea what that means anyway.[/quote] kendalyn, I couldn't agree more with you :wink: I always get a chuckle when I hear people going into indepth explanations of wolf pack order to explain domestic dog behavior :lol: In the book Dogs by Ray & Lorna Coppinger they studied domestic dogs which have lived in the wild within villages. These dogs have probably been wild since dogs domesticated themselves. They live amoung people who are their food sources, but, the dogs are genetically tame, probably more so than most of our purebreds as they do not have any hard wired motor patterns selected for which makes them safer amoung humans as they do not have enhanced predatory drives. These dogs do not run in packs, they live semi solitary lives. This is very interesting to learn, I find it enlightening to read a book which actually studies dogs. As for myself having adopted an aggressive Rottweiler, I couldn't agree more that you should NEVER try to dominant an aggressive dog. This just confuses the dog and can be dangerous. I used only a reward training with her and positive reinforcement....you would never believe she is the same dog I adopted almost 4 years ago....she is a new, laid back, sweet dog. I also watch all 6 of my dogs and try to decide if I can spot the most dominant of my dogs...I can't...my dogs are all equals, they do not compete for any resources, they get along famously. I think we as humans create more problems for our dogs by trying to implement pack rules and dominance training into their lives. I also do not consider myself to be some sort of "Alpha" towards my dogs :lol: basically I consider my dogs to be scavengers and I am their host. They depend on me for food and love, and they know that I am their provider. It works the same for wild domestic dogs which live in wild in small villages. They live off the human waste and they know that the humans provide food for them...they do not consider these people Alpha's...they operate more like other scavengers like crows, rats etc. they "know" that humans are food providers. It is also discussed in the book dogs that all of our wild canines have a "common" ancestor. That does not mean our current dogs evolved from the wolves we have living amoung us presently. They also point out how useless mtDNA testing is. They did their own mtDNA tests on different wolves, coyotes and dogs...with some wolves it showed that they had more coyote mtDNA in them and same with our domestic dogs. Then there are some wolves which have dog DNA in them. They state that the mtDNA tests are not very accurate.

Oh, how exciting to be getting a new pup :wink: I wish I had had 2-4 weeks before getting my dogs :lol: It's pretty bad when a breeder asks you to take one of her dogs for an over night, then the dog ends up living with you. :lol: none of my dogs were by choice, they just fell into my life by chance. Running around like a chicken with it's head cut off getting dishes, food, collars and leashes is frustrating at the last minute. :wink: of course the breeder supplied me with all of these things for the Newf's,but, with my 2 rescues the Rottie and Dobie they never went to a shelter just from their bad life to my home. :wink: Use this time to puppy proof your home, look at and perhaps take some pictures of your favorite teddy bears and shoes before they are chewed apart. :lol: [quote]I wonder if we signed a contract that we would get them spayed/nuetered if they would offer us one sooner ( i dont even no if there is such a thing)[/quote] Oh course most breeders have spay/nueter contracts for puppies they sell. Of course it sounds as if the person you are getting your dog from is doing a very smart thing. Its really hard to release a dog then worry about the new owner and when they will spay/nueter the new pup. I have heard some horror stories of reputable breeders selling pups with a non breeding contract and never received proof the pup had been spayed. One breeder messed up and didn't check up on a few pups she had sold as pet quality. She soon found out the hard way that one owner did not spay her pup. She received a call from some one who had gone to a local pet store and saw my friends kennel name being advertised for pups for sale. The new owner bred her Shepherd pup to a male down the road and sold the pups to the pet store with a CKC registered bitch and an unregistered male. The kennel name was advertised as my friend has top winning champion show dogs...it was awful. My friend was really upset and now she is very timid and careful when selling pups.

I thought some people here may find this interview with Ray & Lorna Coppinger some what interesting. I read the book the arthurs are speaking off, its a pretty interesting book. People have speculated on the origins of the dog for centuries, with the most common view that people took wolf pups from their dens and tamed them, thus creating the domestic dog or Canis familiaris. Ray and Lorna Coppinger, biologists and dog trainers, offer a very different view, suggesting that dogs evolved to fill a new niche created when people began to create permanent villages. [b]Barbara Petura:[/b] Before we start talking about the new ideas about dogs in your book, would you talk a bit about your experiences with different kinds of working dogs? I have the sense from the book that those experiences were important to your thinking. [b]Ray & Lorna Coppinger[/b]: Our experiences with different kinds of working dogs have been intense and diverse. We both started off as kids with pet dogs, but after we were married in 1958 we started to attract hordes of them for some unknown reason. We raised and trained sled dogs throughout the 1960s and 1970s. While Ray was struggling to train and race the team, Lorna took photographs and wrote the first comprehensive book on the history and sport, The World of Sled Dogs. We also helped our children train retrievers and various other breeds - border collies, Welsh corgis, and various mutts. Dogs became the basis of our academic research and teaching, and far-flung lecturing. To us as behavioral biologists, dogs are infinitely fascinating. [b]Barbara[/b]: Was there a particular experience with your own dogs that got you thinking about the topic of the new book, namely a new view of the origin of the domestic dog? Or was it something else? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: No single experience triggered our thinking about the origin of domestic dogs, although we admit to feeling unfulfilled by the widespread acceptance of what we call in the book The Pinocchio Theory of Dog Origin. (Briefly, the wild wolf pup, taken from its den by people, strives to become a real dog.) All the dogs we have known, both at home and the hundreds we've watched all around the world, have contributed to our understanding. By connecting our field observations and research with that of many others, we were able to construct a 'new' explanation of dog origin, one that makes biological sense. As biologists at Hampshire College, in 1977 we co-founded the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, with research into the behavior and use of dogs as a non-lethal way to protect livestock from predators. During the next 15 years, we completed many field trips to various Old World sheep pastures, and imported dozens of pups to raise, breed, and introduce to New World ranchers and farmers. Eventually, our project monitored long-term records of behavior for over 1400 guardian dogs. The most amazing experience abroad was observation of the transhumance migrations, which we first saw in Yugoslavia in 1977. The transhumance, or twice-yearly migrations of millions of sheep, shepherds and dogs, occurs between winter and summer pastures in all livestock-raising cultures from Portugal to Tibet, from South Africa to the North Polar Regions. Watching the guardian dogs and their behavior, counting the miles they travel and the numbers involved, opened a view of dog evolution and behavior that helped us to understand many of the biological mechanisms operating in the perfection of canine form and function. Also, our first visit to Pemba in east Africa solidified the concept of the village dog -- the idea that dogs in many parts of the world, and no doubt since their beginning -- are like pigeons, rats and cockroaches, carrying out their lives in the company of humans but with no overt assistance in either their feeding or reproduction. The village dog is a key to understanding the earliest evolution of breeds. [b]Barbara[/b]: You propose a new view of the origin of dogs, suggesting that people did not domesticate dogs but rather some wolves domesticated themselves. How did that occur, in your view? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: In DOGS, we propose a model whereby wild canids -- call them wolves -- domesticated themselves in response to humans providing them a new ecological niche, that is, 'permanent' human settlements. But remember, most 'new' ideas are made up of pieces that have been kicking around for a long time. The anthropologist Frederick Zeuner wrote in the 1960s that many of the domestic species were originally crop pests, species adapting to a niche that humans created. Biologists Alan Beck in the US and Luigi Boitani in Italy showed modern examples of village scavengers, dogs living well on the surplus of human habitation. Walter Poduschka in Austria emphasized the realities of population biology. Psychologists John Paul Scott and John Fuller understood the importance of the genetic tameness of dogs in contrast to the genetic wildness of wolves. These and many, many other scientists provided evidence on which to build a theory. But it was Dmitri Belyaev's long-term project in Russia that first demonstrated, we believe, how the genetic transformation from wild to domestic canine could occur, without human intervention. It's based on 'flight distance,' a component of wild animal behavior that dictates how close the individual can approach some object before turning and running away. This is all in Chapter 1, one of our most favorite chapters in DOGS. [b]Barbara[/b]: Do you consider this new view of the domestic dog to be important for owners and trainers of working dogs of various kinds? How might people change their thinking about dog behavior and training? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: The village dog origin of our modern dogs won't in itself change dog training techniques. Dog training has been changing rapidly over the past few years anyway. Besides, we never found that dog trainers paid very much attention to evolutionary theory. Dog trainers would tell you that you should dominate the dog like the leader of a pack of wolves, and then tell the dog in a high squeaky voice, "Good Boy!" We think the importance of DOGS may be that it helps dogs more than their owners. A view of dogs as essentially village scavengers that are easily adapted to people and kind of fun to play with, opens many new windows for people in their relationships with their dogs. Relationships should be based on positive situations, play, having fun. [b]Barbara[/b]: Among your new views of the dog is a rejection of the trainer as the "alpha wolf" and the dogs as the "submissive pack member." Why have you rejected what has essentially become dogma in the dog training world? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: The alpha wolf model of dog training certainly does appear frequently in print, but we wonder if it was ever really incorporated into serious dog training. We suspect it was never very useful in training dogs, and that almost everybody intuitively knew that. It was "say one thing, do another." Certainly all the new techniques, such as click and treat, are not based on dominance. We've watched top trainers like Terry Ryan and Ken McCort, and never saw any hint of "I'm the dominant wolf." People who try modifying aggressive dogs don't try to "dominate" them into submission. Everybody agrees that would be a disaster. Imagine training a wolf by dominating it. Quick way to get killed. It is a mistake to think that because dogs are descended from wolves, they behave like wolves. Wolves do not show the "alpha roll," or any other hierarchical behavior, except in specific circumstances, particularly during reproductive and feeding behaviors. Wolf packs on a hunt are working cooperatively, and hierarchy goes by the board. Training dogs is fun for me and for the dog, as it should be. Our sled dogs ran because running is fun and feels good. Endorphins are released, social interactions are increased. Try running while you're being submissive. Dogs aren't pulling sleds because they are forced to or are submitting to some person's will. Everybody who ever drove dogs knows that you absolutely cannot force them to do it. [b]Barbara[/b]: It will be hard to get that alpha wolf/submissive wolf thinking eliminated from the parlance of dog training, but for starters, how should people think about their relationship with their dog? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: It won't be hard to get the wolf pack mentality to go by the board simply because we don't think many of the experts ever really believed it. It is through social play behavior that animals learn from one another. Further, it is fun to play with our dogs even if none of us learn anything. It will certainly make more sense to the dog than to be tumbled onto its back and growled at by a human. Colin Allen and Marc Bekoff have recently drawn attention to a category of behaviors they call intentional icons. Dogs have signals they use when they want to play - the play bow. The play bow is a signal that all the following behaviors like growls and snarls are all in fun. Consider what might happen if you gave the "dominant male" intentional icon, indicating everything that happens from now on is about the driver being the dominant dog. The sled dogs, if they were reacting as submissive wolves, would then lie on their backs and pee in the air instead of running as a team. Instead of threatening our dogs every time we want to train them, we need to perfect the human play bow which tells the dog the games are about to begin. Remember that games have rules, and what the dog and the humans learn during play is what the rules of the game are. That makes sense in teaching or training, whether it is dogs or students. The intent of dominance display is to exclude the subordinate from some activity, like breeding. The alpha wolf isn't trying to teach the subordinate anything. [b]Barbara[/b]: You also tackle the nature/nuture issue in the book, looking at the relative importance of genetics and environment in shaping a dog's temperament and behavior. You clearly think both play a role in a dog's development, but how important is each? Are genes and environmental experiences equally important, or is one dominant? Why? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: The nature/nurture dichotomy has been dying for a long time. Daniel Estep said it very well a few years ago, that talking about behavior as "genetic" is just a shorthand that many of us use -- including in DOGS. Behavior is actually epigenetic, or above (or more than) the genes. It is like saying that an animal's size is genetic, implying that there is no environmental input. But everyone realizes, if an animal doesn't eat it won't grow to its normal size. On the other hand, all the food in the world won't make an animal any bigger than its genetic potential. Now, think of behavior as a size and shape. If you don't nurture a dog's behavior it won't grow to its genetic potential. No matter how much you nurture a pup's behavior, it can't go beyond its genetic potential. It is the interaction between genes and the environment that determine how the dog will behave. [b]Barbara[/b]: Important to all breeders and trainers of working dogs in your discussion of the "critical period" in a young puppy's life. You give great examples of what is done with livestock guardian dogs during that critical period to prepare them for their life's work. What about sled dogs -- what experiences should a sled dog pup have during that critical period? How can others generalize from these ideas? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: We showed why it was important to raise livestock guarding dogs with sheep during the critical period as an illustration of what every professional should know about raising working dogs. Sled dogs are usually raised in big pens, playing with other dogs, and often going out on fun runs. We know at least one driver who fed his pups separately so that they would not have any resource to fight over. The idea is not to let hierarchies develop during the critical period of social development. We want our sled dogs' social behavior centered around play with other dogs and me. The driver should be a fun guy and when he shows up they are going to play games, and when they get through everybody is going to feel good. Pups develop the attitude that other dogs are fun to be with, not to be avoided. Most professional dog handlers have fun tricks to play with their dogs. Bird dog people have an old quail wing on a string that the pup chases and starts learning the rules of the game. Ray has a bright silver de-hooked lure that he casts out with his fishing rod to see if he can keep our Jack Russell terrier from getting it. He loves the chase. But, it is getting to the point where Ray needs a bigger, faster reel. Critical period gets several long looks in DOGS, and we show how it is related to breed differences and working abilities in several behavioral types of dogs. It should be easy for readers to extrapolate to other breeds, once they understand how it works. [b]Barbara[/b]: What reactions are you receiving to the book? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: Reactions to the book have been wonderful. People have been kind with their praise for various sections. You can tell they are good "dog" people because they respond so quickly with the "good boy!" They write, "I have only finished the first chapter but wanted to say . . ." That is the sign of somebody who understands click and treat. So far we have seen only one cranky response. [b]Barbara[/b]: What impact do you hope the book will have? [b]Ray & Lorna[/b]: We hope the book will open the different issues of dog evolution and behavior to a healthy discussion. The idea behind science is to generate a testable hypothesis and then see whether the data support or deny the hypothesis. It is in the spirit of the process where the action is. If people offer data that refute all of our hypotheses, we will have to go back to the drawing boards. People have already started with, "That is really a new and interesting way to look at something, but it isn't the way I understand it. Couldn't we consider the following observations?" That is marvelous. We don't know it all, of course, nor was our intention to try to explain it all. Really, the reason we wrote the book was to have fun, and play with some ideas. We really hope that readers will have the same good sensations playing with those ideas.

This is quite a coincidence. I was just reading a post by TDG in the health section regarding Rimadyl killing dogs and causing internal bleeding. Perhaps it was the dogs own Veterinarian who killed your clients dog with a different poison....Rimadyl. Of course being a good business owner you do not point fingers, but, it would be interesting to share this article with your client....just for educational purposes of course:wink: Here is part of the post submitted by TDG. [quote]LAWSUIT OVER VETERINARY DRUG SETTLED FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Johns Island, South Carolina - August 18, 2004 Jean Townsend of Johns Island, South Carolina announced today that a settlement has been reached with Pfizer, Inc. in what appears to be the first lawsuit of its kind in this country a lawsuit over injuries that led to the death of Ms. Townsend's chocolate lab, George. Ms. Townsend originally brought a class action lawsuit against Pfizer in October of 1999, two years after the tragic death of George. The lawsuit alleged that after initial approval by the FDA, the drug Rimadyl

I am not a fan of any of the anti inflammatory med's prescribed by vets. I have seen far too many dogs killed by the kindness of their owners. My friend who breeds Newfoundland dogs has had so many bad experiences with Metacam over the past 30 years that she refused to use it now. With myself I found Glucosamine & Chrondroitin HDL worked great for my old Newfoundland who sadly passed away when she was almost 15...that is old for a Newf. I tried acupuncture on her with no success at all. Recently I have found a wonderful supplement called Yucca root, I swear by this as an anti inflammatory. My Rottweiler has horrible hips, my vet also strongly advised I put her on metacam...I didn't and instead looked for an alternative treatment. I currently have her on a liquid supplement called Nutri Aid GCM which consists of: Glucosamine Chondroitin MSM Vitamin C Mineral Manganese I also give her Yucca root daily as well, you can either purchase through Solid dog food products or purchase the human form...its pretty cheap. My Rottie went from lame and whimpering when trying to get out of bed in the morning to a feisty active healthy dog which you would never think had bad hips. AT my Last wellness check a new vet was looking my little girl over...the vet manipulated Athena's hips then checked the file, then manipulated the hips again looking baffled...she asked if this was Beau or Athena...I was puzzled and told her that yes she had the right file. The vet was shocked and said the x-rays for her hips must have been wrong as their is so much flexability in my girls hips for a dog with HD :wink: I was pleased. You could upgrade your dogs food and perhaps supplement with a home made diet of foods which are easy to digest. Avoid foods which are known to cause inflammation. Give Reba digestive enzymes to help the old body absorb the nutrients and perhaps give a probiotic to keep a healthy gut. I would also make sure she is getting alot of omega 3 fatty acids in her diet either in a fish oil supplement or give ground flax seeds or flax oil...I feed my Rottie canned sardines 3-4 times a week and canned salmon a few times a week to help with the inflamation. Make sure Rebas food is highly digestable as well. Older dogs also need more fiber, this is why I would feed ground organic flax seeds for the omega 3's and the fiber. Herbs good for digestion are: Flaxseed, Marshmallow, dandelion root, psyllium husks, burdock root. Mental clarity and nervous support: Oat tops , ginko, gotu kila, siberian ginseng, peppermint. Cardiovascular support: Hawthorn, garlic, ginkgo, cayenne, yarro. Liver support & protection: Milk thistle, dandelion root Immune support Astragalus, Siberian ginseng Arthritis relief Alfalfa, yucca root, licorice, turmeric, boswellia Kidney support Ginkgo, hawthorn, dandelion leaf, goldenrod, cornsild, couchgrass, plantain leaf Nutrition support spirulina, nettle leaf, dandelion leaf, wheatgrass, barley grass. Good luck to you

Mutts4me, I wasn't calling YOU a know it all. :lol: I was referring to one of the vet tech's I work with. I guess with myself since I work with dogs daily every single day in a vet athmosphere, boarding and grooming I hear the same question about 10 times daily..."what do you think my dog has in it???". The only way to tell for sure is if you see the parents. There are alot of purebred mongrels out there as well. The picture you posted looks exactly like a few Lab/Shepherd mixes we have come in...there is no pit in these dogs. I also have seen Lab's with simular faces and expressions. Heck, we get a few purebred dogs in which people mistake for other breeds :lol: I had a Golden Retriever in for boarding...a friend of mine who has been breeding Great Pyrenees for the past 30 years mistook this Golden for a Pyr....and she was looking the dog over asking who bred this nice looking Pyr :o I had to break it to her gently that the dog was in fact a purebred Golden :lol: She was quite embarressed especially since she is the expert on Pyr's and has been showing and breeding for a long long time.

The Nutri Aid GCM is made by Nutriscience and I purchase it at my local tack store for horses. It is made for horses and dogs. I found a phone number for central sales on the bottle 800-387-2522 Hope this helps. I found that with my girl with HD she used to have pretty bad days being in pain from the secondary arthritis from the HD. The Yucca root is a wonderful supplement I use as an anti-inflammatory. YOu can purchase Yucca root either through Solid Gold dog food products or at your local health food store which sells vitamins. The human forms works wonderful and its really cheap. I purchase a bottle of 90 capsoles for $6.00 canadian, this lasts me a long long time as I only use half a capsole each day (I open the capsole and add just a little powder to her food) Good luck :wink:

The dog looks like a thousand other Shepherd/Lab/mongrel crosses I have seen over the past 20 years. [quote]But he's a lot leaner and streamlied than a lab, and his ears... ohh, his ears... "Is he part pit?" I ask.[/quote] Every breeder I know breeds for a differnt "look" in their labs. Some of the breeders bred for a stocky build, others for a leaner look. I also had a few Labs mixes with coats as smooth as a Dobies come in for boarding, these dogs had no bull breed in them at all. [quote]The guy gets confused and slowly says "Not to my knowledge. *pause* He's just a mutt." Whoa, okay, apparently they don't like the idea of their dog being part pit, so I don't press the issue. [/quote] He was probably just reacting as I do when people tell me my dog Beau is part Rhodesian Ridgeback. I really got annoyed, especially with a new vet tech they hired at the vet clinic I work at. She kept saying Beau was a Rhodesian Ridgeback mix...its not that I have any thing against Ridgeback's its just this girls know it all attitude. I finally just started saying to her that Beau is just a mongrel and could possibly have come from generations of mongrels...hey, maybe he is a purebred mongrel with no purebred in him at all...after all....all of our current purebreds came from mongrels any way. [quote]I guess anything's possible, but they had no problem telling me that "he's pretty well trained, but he cannot get along with other dogs at all, so don't let any other dogs by him." So if they knew he was part pit but didn't want to tell me his breed, I'd have thought they'd be afraid to tell me he was majorly dog aggressive, but they had no problem with that.[/quote] I would let you know that my Rottie is dog aggressive if I were to leave her with you...its called common sense on the part of the dog owner. I work with dogs every single day of my life. Do you realize how many dogs out there are dog aggressive??? I have dog aggressive Golden Retrievers, dog aggressive German Shepherds, dog aggressive Lhapso Apso's, dog aggressive Poodles...I could go on and on. As far as I know none of these dogs have pit in them especially considering some of them are working on their championship levels in the show ring. If an owner failed to tell me their dog had a tendancy to be dog aggressive then I would ticked off. I think a good responsible owner should let any one who is looking after their dog know all of its quirks.

[quote]One more question though.... with the glucosamine, should I just go ahead and get the Glucosamine/Chondroitin combo supplement, if I have the option of that or plain Glucosamine? And if I give both or all three (MSM, Glucosamine, Chondroitin), do I give lower doses of each, or the full dose of each still?[/quote] gooeydog, I find it best to give all these supplements combined. My Rottie was diagnosed with HD at 1 1/2 years of age, she has been doing great on these supplements daily for the past 3 1/2 years...her hips don't bother her at all. I found a wonderful product called Nutri Aid GCM, this contains: Glucosamine Chondritin HDL MSM Vitamin C Mineral Manganese I used to have her on the human form of Glucosamine, Chondritin and MSM...then I had to buy seperate vitamin C and mineral manganese...you need th latter 2 supplements in order to aid in the uptake of the Glucosamine into the dogs system. I do give human grade Yucca supplement...now this supplement I am truly amazed with. My Newfoundland with elbow dysplasia is not as bad off as my Rottie with HD...but, I still keep him on a maintence level of the Nutri Aid GCM...I also give it to my other 2 Newfs which have ruptured their cruiciate ligaments to help heal and keep secondary arthritis from popping up. It gives the proper amount to give for the weight of your dog. Its also in a liquid form which makes it easy to slip into the dogs food.

[quote]it's in her right front leg that she limps sdome times it will be just a little bit, other days it looks like she is missing a leg and his hoppin' everywhere.. it's hard to discribe.. but does this help?[/quote] DeafAussieLover It could be so many different reasons why a dog is limping, some are harder to diagnose than others. It took me a long long time to find out that my Rottweiler has calcified deposits on her front legs. The pain from these deposits can be so intense at times that she ends up lame for days at a time. My vet had to send the x-rays away to a local vet college to help read the x-rays...the deposits are very very difficult to spot...they turn up as just a slight discoloration on the x-rays which alot of vets (including mine) do not pick up on. There is no surgery, acupuncture never worked either. I just maintain a regular exercise routine, give her Glucosamine, chondroitin HDL, MSM, vitamin C and mineral magganese to help the glocosamine be absorbed into the dogs system. I also give her Yucca root as an anti inflammatory (the yucca I do take her off for a 3 week span every 3 months, it is not good to give for an extended period of time), I also give her dandelion root.

Here is a website for you to review. [url]http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=TodayQA-questionId=106632[/url] I have also heard of people getting acupuncture for allergies, I havent heard much about this.

Keep up with the NIFIL training. That policy is a life saver :wink: When I first rescued my adult female Rottie (Athena) she was a very offensive, dominant horrible bitch. She attacked me once (she went into predatory drift), I almost shipped her off to the local Rottie rescue. Instead I did as you are doing...I enforced the NIFIL, she is now no longer food or possesion aggressive, her level of dog aggression has decreased about 90% (I did do extra training with a certified animal behaviorist for this behavior issue, and I attended a few dog aggression courses). When you set your dogs up to succeed they will not have the need to fight over resources or attention. Athena can be chewing on a big raw meaty bone and my other dogs can take it away from her with out any issues...all Athena does now is to walk over, take it back and go else where for more privacy. I am glad all of your dogs are responding to this training. Just remember to always be consistant and never get to the point of "oh, every thing seems fine now" :lol: this will be a life long committment. You can also make it fun for your son by having him feed the dogs and making them sit before he places it down for them. I will try to dig up my notes and paper work from the dog aggression seminars I attended and pass on some of the info I found to be most helpful. Give me time as my paper work and file cabinet are not quite in alphabet order :oops:

Shenanigans, that would be a wonderful idea for you to visit schools and teach children "dog sense". I think I read else where that you use your dog as a therapy dog already? you would have a perfect dog to demonstrate with. I may have worded myself wrong when I stated my province implimented this program. Acutally this police officer took it apon himself to teach children after we had a horrible dog mauling which resulted in the death of a little boy. I havent been to one of his training sessions, but, I assume it is paying off. Even my little neices and nephews know enough to stand like a tree" if a dog where ever to run up to them. Its very helpful for children whose parents have no dog smarts what so ever. So, you share my experience of having a mother try to place their child on your Newf's back. I have never seen the likes of how people loose their senses when it comes to a Newf. I have actually heard parents encourage their children to go over and see the big teddy bears :-? I have even had adults run up and hug my Newf's and coo all over them, for alot of dogs this would put them into an offensive stance. As for my other dogs, Beau (my Dobie mix) he attracts children like doo doo attracts flies. He is so goofy looking that they think of him as a comic book character come to life. For Athena my Rottie, no, I have never ever had a child approach her, nor an adult. She is a friendly dog, but, I think her docked tail puts even little children on guard a little. The only people who approach Athena are bikers, and most men...I don't mind that at all. :wink: I use her as man bait.

[quote]I think newfiemom and Cassie might be able to sympathise with me, but I find kids are just drawn to Shenanigans. It doesn't matter where I go, if there are kids, they are there wanting to hug the big giant teddybear walking along. And thankfully Shenanigans is a very stable dog, he has been startled, but he has never reacted negatively. [/quote] [b]Shenanigans Wrote[/b] You get that too :wink: :lol: I was at a dog jog, had my Newfoundland Dilon with me...as I was talking to a friend I glanced around just in time to see a mother "placing" her toddler on my dogs back :o thank goodness my Newf's are gentle gaints and nothing fazes them :wink: I was quite shocked at the stupidity of the mother of this child. If the parents don't know how to approach a dog, how in the heck do we expect them to teach their children. In the province I live in we have implimented a dog learning course for all elementary students which I think is great. It teaches children why its best not to approach strange dogs and how to act if a dog is loose. This course is taught by a K-9 unit police officer. He visits the schools with his partner (a GSD). This is just about the best thing we can impliment into our school system. When you have parents who don't have a clue them selves...its nice to know "some one" is out there to teach them dog smarts. I have met more stupid adults who have approached my dogs in very strange manners :-? it frightens me that they are the ones teaching their children how to act :o [/quote]

[quote]The only thing is Cassie are the adults purebreds or are they labordoodles? If they are labordoodles, then they are not AKC registered. I think that's a little deceiving.[/quote] [quote]All adults are AKC,CKC registered with Hip OFA scores from good-excellent.25 month guarantee on all genetic diseases. [/quote] The way I take it is that the parents are a purebred Lab and a purebred Poodle crossbred to make a Labordoodle. I really think all this narrow mindness on the part of our current breeders is what is creating genetically unhealthy dogs. For myself, I think healthy breeding should involve the reintroduction of the breeds used to orginally make up the breed in the first place. It really bothers me that people have some warped view on what a purebred dog really is. It almost seems as though people view each purebred as a seperate species. For myself, I think crossbreeding genetically healthy breeds is healthy breeding bringing new blood into a breed. The kennel clubs are slowly ruining our dogs by being so anal about purebred breeding. It scares me to think if they ever got a hold of human children and the only ones allowed to breed when they hit maturity are the ones which can win beauty contests and have the right "look"...its a very unhealthy way to keep good genetics. :wink: When you look back at the history of our breeds they each evolved from major crossbreeding. The only difference is today we stopped bringing in new blood to keep the gene pool fresh. If you look at a purebred dog, there may seem to be a big population of them...but, if you looked at the gene pool they come from it is very small and limited. So for me, I have no problems with crossbreeding. I do have a problem with over population...and IMO all people who breed are contributing to this problem.