Guest roo Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Your views on what commercial breeders are and why they do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Yep K Commercial breeders are a business :x They are in it purely for the money. But they are big. Some breed purley for the testing companies, some just for pet shops. Many commercial breeders have fabulous set ups, why because they need to to keep going, but there is no love here, no socializing of the pups, the mothers are just that mothers they are nothing more and again when they have served their purpose, goodbye. But some commercial breeders are also show breeders. Roo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Commercial breeders are in it ONLY for a buck. They treat their dogs like livestock. They keep them stuck in a kennel their entire lives. No human socialization. The pups are not properly socialized as they see no human contact with the excuse that they dont want anyone in thier kennel that they might bring disease. If they properly screened buyers on the phone before they invited them over the buyers would have already a good idea that they want to deal with that breeder and not be window shopping and go to a bunch of breeders. And the majority give every excuse why not to screen potential buyers and do health testing. They just make puppies, not try to better the breed and/or thier stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I will disagree. I think that more commercial breeders love their charges then you think and they can be just as passionate about them...but about different things. They do c-section, morn old dogs, and many keep spayed brood bitches as pets unable to part with them. I don't agree with puppy farming, because I think dog breeding should be an art...but at the same time I understand. Yes it is about money. What breeds are selling, what breeds are easy to care for. Most commercial breeders know as much about dog raising and genetics, as the average show/hobby breeder as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 After lurking much on the usdabreeder board, I respectfully disagree that they know genetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 [quote name='roo']Yep K Commercial breeders are a business :x They are in it purely for the money. But they are big. Some breed purley for the testing companies, some just for pet shops. Many commercial breeders have fabulous set ups, why because they need to to keep going, but there is no love here, no socializing of the pups, the mothers are just that mothers they are nothing more and again when they have served their purpose, goodbye. But some commercial breeders are also show breeders. Roo[/quote] My sentiments exactly - big businesses breeding for profit only, and without consideration to the animals produced and whether they be niggling on food, shelter, medical attention or any other needs of the dogs is usually evident. Most of the offspring from these operations do not even have the slightest resemblance to the breed standards of the puppies being produced, which can be an asset at times when one wants to identify these people. But, to the un-educated, un-suspecting potential puppy buyer, it is not so evident, and they usually get taken in by these people with sad outcomes in most cases. Looking at these puppies either on a web site, auction site, flea market, pet store, at the breeder's establishment etc., one can usually spot poorly bred animals. Once the "breeders" are no longer of any value they then are tossed aside in some fashion. I also agree that Commercial Breeders are showing their dogs. I don't think they would present any sort of competition with the well known, long standing registry bodies, but they likely do well at Shows hosted by the not so well recognized registries, such as APRI and some of the others that do host events. They possibly do show at AKC Shows too, in fact I think they do, judging by what I read. My 2 cents on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Seems to me the extent of the knowledge of genetics the commercial breeders have is that if you happen to get an affected pup then you don't breed those 2 together anymore. Of course they continue to breed them seperately passing on the gene and creating carriers though not affecteds. Since they sell on open pedigrees, joe blow breeds his pet with no knowledge and whamo. Oh and of course the commercial breeder creed seems to be, if anything does come up once the pup is sold, it is of course the fault of the owner. Too many shots, getting it too fat, etc etc. of course sometimes this is true, but not a majority of the time like they proclaim. It's actually amusing. They seem to think overfeeding or feeding the wrong thing causes HD. They don't comprehend that there is a genetic predisposition to it. If fed right they would not become outwardly affected, but they still are affected and would pass it on if bred. And of course the parents are carriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 [quote name='sandyb']After lurking much on the usdabreeder board, I respectfully disagree that they know genetics.[/quote] This statement is most certainly correct!! And to add to it, when a credible person with incredible knowledge in genetics tried to pass on worthy information the input was bashed all to heck and the person(s) banned from the Board and sneered at. I hesitate to push the "submit" button on this post. However, to verify any information at all posted here, anyone wanting further insight on this can just read the archived messages at the site mentioned above. And as an aside, I know absolutely nothing about genetics!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Maybe someone can elighten me but when my roommate and I did some quick amature calculations we came up with the figure of 30 breeding females (plus a few males) needed to live just below the poverty line (if no pups die and no small litters.) That of course naively is calculated assuming 1 litter per year per female (assuming all pregnancies culminate in a litter) and that you provide decent food and vetrinary care and a decent structure with limited heat if nec and proper cleaning. (If you get more dogs to make more money you'd eventually need to hire staff to adequately care for the animals.) So how can "commercial" breeders turn a profit and do things right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 DING DING DING!!!!! dog paddle you get the prize!!!!!!!!!!! Of course there is no money in it unless you scimp on things like health testing and quality food. Though I guess you could get good discounts feeding that much. And how do you socialize the animals? You CANT. Not enough time in the day. and socializing pups? In a kennel? Nope. Not good. How do these puppy farmers know the temperament of these dogs when they are stuck thier entire lives in kennel runs? They dont'. Dogs act different in a kennel run than a home environment. so these puppy farmers have no idea of the adult temperament they are producing. And the truth be told why they dont screen buyers, they dont have the time or want to waste the time talking to new buyers. I spend a couple hours with each puppy buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Didn't one of them say that all puppies needed was air and water? I swear I remember something like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 That's the attitude that abounds with the commercial breeders. They think of it as raising a crop. I just dont think of my dogs as a cash crop, they are my pets first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy B Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 [quote name='DogPaddle']Maybe someone can elighten me but when my roommate and I did some quick amature calculations we came up with the figure of 30 breeding females (plus a few males) needed to live just below the poverty line (if no pups die and no small litters.) That of course naively is calculated assuming 1 litter per year per female (assuming all pregnancies culminate in a litter) and that you provide decent food and vetrinary care and a decent structure with limited heat if nec and proper cleaning. (If you get more dogs to make more money you'd eventually need to hire staff to adequately care for the animals.) So how can "commercial" breeders turn a profit and do things right?[/quote] I guess it's different in each breed. In Dobes we have two very well known commercial breeders and quite a few lesser ones. To give you an idea of the financial side, I'll talk about one of them...the House of Hoytt. [url]http://www.hoytt.com/[/url] About 20 or so years ago the Hoytt name was actually fairly well respected. They bred and showed their Dobes, not much health testing going on in the breed back then so they fit in. The father retired and the son took over the business and really turned it into a business. Dobes in general are expensive. A pet pup from a good breeder will cost $1000 to $1500. A show potential pup from a good breeder of an established line can cost up to $3000. The Hoytts charge even more than that! How do they do it? Well first of all they're very good at advertisement. Their website makes them look great...to someone who really doens't know much about Dobes or dog breeding in general. They tout champion lines...yes, they had champion many years ago when they showed in conformation. I don't think they've produced a home grown champ since then. They've had limited success buying Champion studs....once it became obvious what their aim was, no responsible Dobe breeder wanted their dogs in a Hoytt pedigree. The Hoytts breed a large volume of Dobermans. BTW, an average Dobe litter is probably 6 pups but Dobes do frequently have up to 12 in a litter. The Hoytts also offer various "extra training packages" that you can order right along the the size, color, activity level and sex of the pup you want. (Does this sound like ordering a car to you?) I personally met one Hoytt dog as a pup. The guy who bought him was a member of the local Dobe club. He consulted some of the members about training issues and to determine if he would show the pup. He was persuaded not to show the pup, it had numerous serious faults. It was also shy and had no special training that we could see. Wasn't even really leash broken. For this, the total cost to the owner was $5000. The Hoytts have sold numerous dogs to celebrities. I think that once a breeder sells to a couple of celebs, it sorta becomes "know" among celebs that "this is the place to go". Of course, selling to celebs also has an impact on unknowledgable John Q Publics who figure celebs have the money for the best so, Hoytt must be the best. Hoytt doesn't breed to the Dobe standard. They breed Dobes to be larger than standard. I forget what they call them....superior, super size or whatever. Dobes are a certain size for a reason. Standard size Dobes only have an average lifespan of ten years, larger than standard size Dobes have a reduced lifespan. Hoytt doesn't seem to do much, if any, health testing. Dobe breeders need to OFA hips (elbows are becoming common too), vWD DNA test, CERF, yearly full thyroid pannel, holter cardiac moniter or ultrasound by a board certified cardiologist prior to breeding. They should also "prove" their dogs in some venue....conformation, performance or other. Hoytt does occasionally send out some Dobes with a trainer/handler to get a basic CD on them so that "obedience" can be touted. I also believe that one Hoytt bred Dobe made it into the Dobe agility top 20 last year so, what does that say? To me it says that if you produce a large volume of dogs you will occasionally get a good one....dumb luck. Good luck for that dog to have been sold to someone who loves and trains it very well. Many Dobe rescues have taken in Hoytt Dobes. They are of the opinion that home screening amounts to seeing if the potential home has the money to purchase a Dobe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy B Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 You know, I was wrong. It wasn't a Hoytt bitch who made it into the Dobe agility top 20 last year it was a Kimbertal bitch....the other big commercial Dobe breeder. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Sandy B, What I have found, about dog breeders, that is parallel among those who are Commercial and those who are not, is one thing...the majorty of the really knowlegable ones, don't have time for the internet....and if they do, they keep their mouth shut and say nothing in public. To say, you know other wise, by "lurking" is nothing....I know from talking to these people, dealing with them through rescue, that there are those who know there stuff. I also know from talking to show people in person, listening to them online for the past 15 years as the internet has grown...how many of them know nothing. As I said...I don't agree with puppy farming....but I know that another has every right to breed as I do...and I will not challange that right as I do not want my rights challanged as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Well then you have had different experiences than I have. The commercial breeders I have come in contact through rescue have not been very educated at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 The key words are "Most commercial breeders know as much about dog raising and genetics, as the average show/hobby breeder as well." The average show and hobby breeder doesn't know squat. They simply go with the flow...breed CH to CH with no rym or reason, or will only breed to a dog in the top 20... thats not a breeding program. I am sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Poofy, I tend to agree on that. The GOOD breeders in my all breed club do know thier genetics backwards and forwards. Many members have no clue. they dont ask questions, they dont know anything. Then they complain they dont know anything. They whine. It's pretty pathetic. How do you learn they say? They expect everything to be spoonfed. Well how about trying to meet and talk with and learn from the experienced breeders for a start. I do and we share who produced what health problem, what line produces such and such health problem, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Poofy, I agree. Breeding to the flavor of the month isn't a program. Lots of that around the rings. The fall out from those breedings can be devastating to the breed if problems arise in the next generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I agree with what Poofy said. For the record, I am a show breeder that is also very interested in the working ability and health of my dogs. I live with another breeder that has over 30 years of experience in this breed. She has tons of knowledge that she gladly shares with me. I sold a show potential male from my last litter to an excellent home on the East Coast. They already had a show female that was finished and doing quite well as a special. They and I have become very good friends, and the pup I sent them is well on his way to his Championship. However, when they started thinking about breeding their girl, they knew that they needed help and advice. The logical place to start would be with the breeder of their female. Unfortunately, when they asked her, the reply that they got was something to the effect of, "I wouldn't worry too much about choosing a stud dog for her. She is really nice and doesn't need to improve much." That was it! Well, she is a nice girl, but she does need improvement and her pedigree contains some serious genetic liabilities. Obviously, her breeder knows little to nothing about that, so I will help them along (although I won't choose a stud dog for them). I think this lack of understanding and knowledge is unfortunately the rule rather than the exception. :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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