Guest roo Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Breeding terms have always been something that alot of people dont really think about before letting themselves in for sometimes an awful lot of cost and heartache. I have known people in the past pay half price for a puppy bitch that is on terms, what are these terms, sometimes one puppy back, sometimes a whole litter, often pick of litter from 2 to 3 litters. Often the breeder of the pup will say which dog has to be used, so you have the stud fee to pay, then the bitch may need a ceasar, you have that to pay, only one pup was born, the breeder takes that, but because of the terms you have to mate the bitch again. I would like to know what everyone elses opinions and views on breeding terms are. But i want to say to anyone considering buying a pup on terms BUYER BEWARE Roo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Yes, Roo you are right. I purchased Jesse (australian shepherd) from a wonderful breeder (pet quality); and now I am interested in purchasing an Aussie male for showing in conformation from the same breeder. She will only sell him on a co-ownership. Although he will be for sale for 1/2 off; she retains breeding rights (I DO NOT PLAN ON BREEDING,ANYWAY- please no lectures!!!). She also REQUIRES me to title this dog at my expense (she will help if I am not having success in the show ring), and when she has no more use for him in her breeding program, she requires me to neuter the dog. So, in other word, I get all the expense of what is basically "her dog". I have not purchased the pup, yet (I think I will want to negotiate the terms IF I decide to even purchase a pup from her). So basically, YES, it is "Buyer Beware". Becareful and really think before you consider signing such a restrictive contract. The contract IS legal and binding and CAN be legally enforced! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bensam Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Reading the previous posts I was amazed at some of those 'terms' and would not be buying any pup under some of those conditions. ON THE OTHER HAND - when I was breeding dogs, I had a type of contract with any novice owner, - any bitch I sold for showing (others had to be speyed) were on the condition that if the new owner wanted to breed the bitch, they had to consult with me re time to breed, choice of sire, placement of puppies. This was done solely to hopefully protect the bitch and the breed. It was always a discussion, not an arguement and I never had any problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 As a show breeder I see things from another angle. When a breeder spends decades developing a bloodline, they know one generation of poor breeding can destroy 20, 30 years of work. There is only one reason to breed and that is for the betterment of the breed. You breed to improve! It takes years of research and pedigree study to produce quality dogs on a regualr basis. The time, work, sweat, tears, money, that go into developing a line of dogs is endless. You buy the best stock you can afford, you show and finish them, which is no easy task. Your heart is involved every step of the way. Sleepless nights with whelping bitches, pusp who need aroudn the clock tube feeding, off the vet at 3 AM more nights then you want to remember. You cry buckets of tears over lost pups, sick ones, adults who grow old and must be put down. These are dogs you have spent your life with and loved dearly. Then the phone rings and someone wants to buy a puppy and breed it. It would be a good experince for the children, they want to make some money, it sounds like fun, dozens of reasons. Sorry, not with my dogs. How do I know you are going to know what to do to insure the my bitch doesn't die because you didn't recognize a whelping problem. How do I know you won't breed her to a male who is not quality or too large, a male from a line with health problems? How do I know you will take the time to find the best home for the pups? I will help anyone who is serious and wants to learn, but you will learn with me looking over your shoulder. I owe it to my dogs, I owe it to the breed I love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 [quote name='SpeakNoEvil']As a show breeder I see things from another angle. When a breeder spends decades developing a bloodline, they know one generation of poor breeding can destroy 20, 30 years of work. There is only one reason to breed and that is for the betterment of the breed. You breed to improve! It takes years of research and pedigree study to produce quality dogs on a regualr basis. The time, work, sweat, tears, money, that go into developing a line of dogs is endless. You buy the best stock you can afford, you show and finish them, which is no easy task. Your heart is involved every step of the way. Sleepless nights with whelping bitches, pusp who need aroudn the clock tube feeding, off the vet at 3 AM more nights then you want to remember. You cry buckets of tears over lost pups, sick ones, adults who grow old and must be put down. These are dogs you have spent your life with and loved dearly. Then the phone rings and someone wants to buy a puppy and breed it. It would be a good experince for the children, they want to make some money, it sounds like fun, dozens of reasons. Sorry, not with my dogs. How do I know you are going to know what to do to insure the my bitch doesn't die because you didn't recognize a whelping problem. How do I know you won't breed her to a male who is not quality or too large, a male from a line with health problems? How do I know you will take the time to find the best home for the pups? I will help anyone who is serious and wants to learn, but you will learn with me looking over your shoulder. I owe it to my dogs, I owe it to the breed I love.[/quote] Speak no evil, i am also a show breeder. I agree with alot of what you have said, but breeding terms :x When my babies go they are endorsed, if the bitch is of quality for breeding when she is old enough then i would remove the endorsement. I would not sell a tiny bitch puppy to someone with terms attatched, say, 2 puppies from 2 litters. I do know of a top breeder in this country who sold a bitch to an innocent person, they paid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Breeders are into dogs for a number of reasons. When the health and well being of the dog/bitch is compromised, I suspect the breeder has $$$$$ signs for eyes. It is wise for a novice to do alot of research before signing any contracts with a breeder. Attending shows, getting to know local club members, talking over the breeder terms someone has offered will give the novice information as to what is fair and honest. We can decide as breeders to treat people the way we would like to be treated or we can take advantage of the "unlearned". I tell novices who have been taken advantage of that everything becomes public knowledge in short measure. It makes you want to be the best breeder you can because of how dishonest breeders treated you in the beginning. If I have accomplished nothing else, I have a reputation for being fair, honest and truthful. When the goal is for the betterment of the breed and not money, I can adjust terms, cancel them or take the dog back if the novice has regrets. If they get a litter I would like a puppy to repay me, if they have nothing but trouble and huge vet bills with the litter, then forget, spay my animal and take good care of them as your pet. You must realize I am not going to place my best puppies with novices unless I can stay involved in some way. What works best for me is to place a proven bitch, ask for a puppy back, provide the stud service, (why not it costs me nothing to use my studs) help the breeder select the best to keep, place the others for them in pet home to be spayed/neutered. Usually it is a bitch that is within a year or 2 of retirement. I agree to a litter to get the novice started. Most often the bitch is spayed after the litter and retired to a pet life. I have the best results from these terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Speak may there be more breeders like yourself out there for those who are serious about wanting to show and title a breed.. Who love a breed... Breeders who will take the time to help someone and show them the time of day.. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 GOOD FOR YOU SPEAK, IT IS A SHAME THAT THERE ARE SO MANY ROGUES BREEDING DOGS AND CONNING PEOPLE IN THE DOG WORLD. I AM SURE IT HAS GONE ON FOR MANY MANY YEARS :( ROO :evilbat: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 A few years back there was a local breeder whose terms were as follows: The bitch was free of charge, she provided all stud services and the owner agreed to return 2 complete litters to the breeder. If there was a whelping problem that needed the vet, the breeder assumed the cost. She worked for my vet and if a problem arose her relationship with the vet took care of any expenses. One week before whelping date she took the bitch and whelped the litter. 3 days later when tails were docked the bitch/litter was returned to owner. At 8 weeks she took the pups to sell. A neighbor thought this was a super arrangement, instead of paying $500 (price at the time) she got a "free" dog. Anyone familiar with the term, "No one rides for free?" how true, but she coudln't understand me not thinking it was such a hot idea. The bitch had 6 pups in the first and 6 in second litter, when she asked to buy one back at a reduced rate she was told no, full price or another deal. Forgoing an upfront $500 if the pup was sold, the breeder got 12 pups with one week of work and little out of pocket expense. Much better then investing in the stock market! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 I would think you would have a good relationship with buyers of puppies. So that when they breed later you are the first person they ask for help. That way with your support your lines will stay good :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starcastle Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 First of all, keeping the breeding rights in not at all uncommon in Sweden. Many breeders do this routinely for the next best puppy they sell, the do of course keep the most promising. But things can do wrong. The pick of the litter may not fulfill it's promise as a puppy, it may have an accident and die etc. So to keep the breeding rights of the next best puppy in the litter is little bit like an insurance for the breeder to have something left to breed from this combination. When we sell dogs like this it is called "on food". It can be done in 2 ways and is controlled by the kennel club and you should use their papers concerning the deal. First of all: If you have a bitch out on full food, the owner has not paid anything. If you want the bitch to be vaccinated properly, insured etc, the breeder pays for it. It is a little bit different how the deals look about showing and competing. Very often this is the only chance for a non breeder to acquite real high quality at all, and they WANT to show and compete. * Full food means for a bitch, owner pays nothing, breeder has the right to 2 litters until the bitch is 5 years old. If the bitch has never been bred, or just bred once, the breeding rights for the breeder automatically cease when the bitch is 5 years old. Please note; the litters are bred by the BREEDER not the owner of the dog. NEVER by the owner of the dog. All costs are paid for by the BREEDER. The owner has no say in choice of sire, this is entirely up to the breeder. The owner has no right to any of the puppies and cannot help sell any of them. This is the breeders job. When the normal 2 litters have been taken, the dog belongs totally to the owner, including breeding rights. When we are talking about a male on full food, we are talking about no money for the owner and a maximum of 5 matings for the male. What counts as a litter? Any litter that has at least one surviving pup at 8 weeks counts as a litter. Half food. This means the owner pay what is 50% of the going price for a normal of pup of this breed. For a bitch, the breeder keeps the right to have one litter, for males they keep the right of 2 matings. Everything else is as explained above. What the owner has to do is to keep the dog in such condition so it is possible to breed the dog. And they have to let the bitch go for a couple of months to the breeder, before whelping and stay until about 8 weeks after whelping. All costs of transport is paid by the breeder, unless the owner has moved since the original deal was made. In some very rare cases the owner wants to have the litter him/herself. In this case the deal has to renegotiated. Only the breeder of a litter can register the puppies. The breeder is the person who whelped the bitch and raised the puppies. The person who did all the work. Nobody else. This means the food owner has to act as breeder and register the puppies in her(his name. If the breeder tries to register the litter wich he hasn't whelped or raised - this will lead to expulsion from the kennel club both for the breeder and the owner. Because this is fraud, acting like a front for someone else. That is an absolute no-no over here. For the same reason you can't help selling anohter breeders puppies. Then you are acting like front again... Oh, did I mention we don't have puppy mills, no stores selling puppies, almost no rescues and ponds, we don't spay and neuter unless for medical reasons and our dog population are 87% purebred and registered? 65% of all dogs, purebred and mutts, are insured for veterinarian costs. Our total dog population about equals the number of dogs put down every year in US... We also have strict laws about animal abuse. You can't crate a dog for more than an hour except when travelleing. You can't chain a dog somewhere for more than an hour. You can't keep mokeys as a private citizen since you cannot give them the stimulation a intelligent animal of that kind needs. Typical pack animals are not allowed to be kept alone as pets, guinea pigs for instance. There are lot's more, some of it quite silly, but quite a lot of it makes good sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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