starcastle

[quote name='Golden']I think that's silky hound.They are really rare,in my opinion there are 3 or 4 those dogs in Europe. I love their silky coat, their character and they looks like royal dogs :D[/quote] The name of the breed is Silken Windhounds. And there are 34 of them in Europe to be exact. I own 14 of them :-)

More about the sensing diseases [url]http://www.eztrainonline.com/CancerProject/Shingling.html[/url]

A project using dogs to detect cancer has been going on for several years in US. A couple of Silken Windhounds ("my breed") is involved, just as an example. See trainer Kirk Turners page [url]http://www.eztrainonline.com/[/url] and Pinestreet Foundation [url]http://www.psmerg.org/avenues/avenues4/canine.html[/url]

I had Borzoi for almost 20 years, my last guy died a year ago. Nowadays I only have their smaller cousins, the Silken Windhounds. Silkens were recognised in Slovenia by the Slovenian Kennel Club recently by the way. USA is country of origin but we have never applied for recognition there. Yet :-) /Sussi

[quote name='"RR"'][quote]a) All countries do not have an overpopulation of dogs. In my country, Sweden, we do not have rescues and ponds and shelters. We don't need them. [b][color=red]If that is true and I highly doubt it, one country that may or may not have an overpopulation problem doesn't account for all the other countries, sometimes we have to look further than our own stomping grounds -- just because you don't see it doesn't mean its nonexistant [/color][/b] No, but my point is that you can't always judge the whole wide world from the American point of view. The world happens to be bit bigger place than that and things are more different in some places than others. b) There are lot's of breed creation projects going on. If you know where to look:-) And they are seldom going very public with it, they are working for decades on it before telling any one, small groups of breeders who are not making a penny out of their life's project, at least not the first decades. [b][color=red]I'm well aware there are breed creation projects and there are breeders who are trying to establish something, but the unscrupulous breeders breeding for profit, popularity etc are harming the breeds in the mean time - they will breed anything with no regard to health testing. They are more numerous than the handful of dedicated breeders working toward a goal -- and are ruining what these breeders are working toward! I am sure this is upsetting to them[/color][/b] But you have to admit there are at least 2 different types of breed creation going on. The serious ones and the not so serious. Not everything comes in entirely black or white, but everything isn't about money for everybody. In several of these projects (that require breeders with knowledge but also a lot of money, land and resources) dogs are simply not sold. [b][color=red]So the dogs not sold are not euthanized? The breeders pay to have them all spay/neutered? [/color][/b] Now I am talking for my breed, the Silken Windhound, I can't answer for anyone else. You have to keep all dogs to evaluate them as adults. Such adults as are not considered to be of breeding quality, are sold for low pet prices (in the $250 range) to people who are waiting for dogs to eventually be for sale. Some people, especially if they are hung up on a special color, markings etc, wait for years until a dog of their liking finally becomes available. They are sold to people who are already fans of the breed, not advertised.[b][color=red] They are also paying the huge expense of having all of these dogs tested and certified clear of health problems? With that many dogs these breeder still have time to love, care and provide for all of these dogs each litter for at least 10 years without having them live in cages AND still continue to breed and experiment on more dogs and litters? I doubt it. [/color][/b] Doubt it all you will, but until lately only people who with the means to have large dog populations at home, anywhere like 50+ have been even attempting to breed. With big ranches, big families and employees, everything is possible. And no, every single dog is not sleeping in the bed, that would be impossible. But then you can't equate creation of a breed with ordinary breeding of an already established breed. You can't create a breed with no more than 10 dogs at home. You need more than 10 to even start, as founders... Maybe that is what they are not going "public" because if they did animal rights groups and dog fanciers would be quite upset!![/color][/b] c) breeds that already are a couple of decades on the way, actually do have clubs, national as well as international. And some of them start to be recognised here and there, usually in some obscure country at first who doesn't have the prestige to think of, like the big well known kennel clubs [b][color=red]Like a said before anyone can start a club or registry, a handful of shady breeders does not constitute a reputable club.[/color][/b] Sure, anyone can do that, but it seems like you have made up your mind from the beginning that as soon as it comes to the new creation of a breed, those people HAVE to be shady and almost criminal. With all the work we put into our dogs, the club, the community, most people in our club would be very upset to be discarded just like that. Most people in our club can be said to be fanatics, everything in their lives circle around their dogs. Don't make the mistake to think that everyone wanting to make a new breed goes out to the public during the first 10 generations, wanting to SELL! [b][color=red]Not everyone but the MAJORITY do and are doing that right now!!!! Hence the hefty price take of a mixed breed ___poo.[/color][/b] Yes I know there are that type of people too. But it still doesn't make it fair to all others, to just decide people are worthless and doing a bad job when you haven't even investigated each group. I know. Because I've been involved in such a project for several years. So far I've only bred 3 litters. Never sold one single puppy and do not intend to sell one single puppy in the next 2-3 generations at least. All breeders in our group do not keep every puppy, simply because they are doing it a much larger scale than I am. At some point even a big place busts at the seams [b][color=red]A big place busts at the seams? What do you mean? .[/color][/b] Even a big ranch with lot's of people can only take care of a certain number of dogs, when the number of dogs exceeds that limit, the dogs can no longer be cared for in a proper way. That is what I mean "bursting at the seams". They have reached their limit. And when that is the case, you have to select who to keep and who to put into a pet home. Even if it hurts real bad to let anyone go. [b][color=red]Sounds comparable to a puppy mill to me. Please enlighten us, if they do not sell their test puppies and they do not keep them then what do they (and you) do with all of these innoncent puppies? Surely after all their "hard work" they wouldn't be giving them away................[/color][/b] Personally I have my dogs for myself. Since I am the only breeder in my country and the only one importing Silken Windhounds, I have to make sure I have the necessary breeding material myself. Since every import cost me 4-5000 dollar including shipping and quarantine, it seem rather stupid to try to sell away puppies for an average puppy price, only to have to replace them with new imports of the above mention costs. Believe me, I can only get a very small fraction of that cost as a sale price for a puppy. I have placed a dog with my old grandfather who lost his old dog, but I still own that dog, pays for food, vaccinations, vet care and everything else. It *is* my dog after all. Since I have puppies growing up now, born in 2002, I will probably not decide that all of them are breeding quality. That is no problem. I have lot's of friends actually begging me to let them have one, so I still do not have to sell any, but is still able to provide a good home for them, with people I know. Where is the crime in that? If you think new breeds is just about Cockerpoo, etc, you are gravely misinformed. [b][color=red]When was it stated that the new breeds are just about cockapoos? I only wish it were about one new breed <SIGH> I'll never understand, that with so many breeds and mixes in existence right now, why there needs to be more "new" breeds created???? - especially when so many do not have homes as it is.[/color][/b][/quote] When it comes to the Silken Windhound, if fills a niche that hitherto had been empty, a small longhaired sighthound. Having had Borzoi for 15 years, loving them, the Silken Windhound was irrestable, finally I had found my "almost Borzoi" but in a smaller package. Judging from the comments I, as well as all the other Silken Windhound people get all the time, I am not the only one finding "an almost" Borzoi in a smaller size, to be nice. Lot's of people say they have wished for many years that there were a smaller longhaired sighthound. Borzoi are nice, but the size alone make them dogs that are not for everyone. The Silken Windhounds trace back to the first foundation during the 1950's. They have been around for awhile, but not until now have they gathered some interest. In US they are shown at rare breed clubs, in my country there is no concept of rare breeds, just recognised breeds and mutts. They are also participating unofficially at agility, LC and racing, quite a few Silkens work as service dogs, we have 2 in the project for training dogs to sniff out cancer. And in 2 weeks we have the international Silkenfest in Europe, with people coming from Europe as well as USA. The only difference betwen Silkens and any other recognised breed is that they are a little bit later in creation, but the club, the people and the activities are no different from the established breeds. Well, the puppies aren't really available for the "market", just to the people finding their ways to us anyway. Breeding quality dogs are sold only to other breeders. Since SW are not recognised, there is no "market" for them in the wide sense of the word, they are also sighthounds, not easy to sell even if they are recognised. Silkens are for the fanciers, not for everyone. And nobody will ever be rich in breeding Silkens. So far every breeder of Silkens has put a fortune into their breeding programs, not even getting money back to cover the cost of the food of the dogs at home. That is beside the point. Nobody in Silkens are in it for the money, but for the dogs. Anyone wanting to make money out of dogs would choose some other kind of dog, easier to sell. Some small cutsie dog perhaps. And to have to hear (another post) that "my breeding practises are not wanted" is a bit odd when I've only bred 3 litters but kept them all. That happens all the time in any established breed and nobody even raise an eyebrow at that. So I really don't know what you are getting at, except trying to find faults and be pretty nasty to just everyone who is outside "your" idea of "normal". Unless you really do study the Silken Windhound breed, the work done by the club, the time and devotion spend by the people involved, I don't have any more to add to this discussion since it is pointless.

[quote name='Rosebud']:klacz: A big hand to RR. I completely agree Sorry starcastle but your breeding practices are not necessary and are only fueling an already shady and questionable market; ie. puppy mills. :angel:[/quote] Oopsie, I always thought puppy mills SOLD dogs... Apperantly anyone breeding dogs and keeping them at home is a puppy mills by definition. Sorry, I did not know, we don't have anything that qualifies for the expresson "puppy mills" in my country.

a) All countries do not have an overpopulation of dogs. In my country, Sweden, we do not have rescues and ponds and shelters. We don't need them. True, the entire Swedish dog population isn't bigger than to be just about equal to the number of dogs put down by American shelters etc annually. b) There are lot's of breed creation projects going on. If you know where to look:-) And they are seldom going very public with it, they are working for decades on it before telling any one, small groups of breeders who are not making a penny out of their life's project, at least not the first decades. In several of these projects (that require breeders with knowledge but also a lot of money, land and resources) dogs are simply not sold. Period. c) breeds that already are a couple of decades on the way, actually do have clubs, national as well as international. And some of them start to be recognised here and there, usually in some obscure country at first who doesn't have the prestige to think of, like the big well known kennel clubs :-) d) In several of these projects the participants are vets, genetists etc, very often people with a long life's experince of breeding animals, and not just dogs. Don't make the mistake to think that everyone wanting to make a new breed goes out to the public during the first 10 generations, wanting to SELL! I know. Because I've been involved in such a project for several years. So far I've only bred 3 litters. Never sold one single puppy and do not intend to sell one single puppy in the next 2-3 generations at least. All breeders in our group do not keep every puppy, simply because they are doing it a much larger scale than I am. At some point even a big place busts at the seams :-) And we do of course have a standard, an international club that is at the top of things, emerging national clubs, the breed spreading over the world, shows in different part of the world etc. A closed studbook based entirely on DNA proven heritage is a given. If you think new breeds is just about Cockerpoo, etc, you are gravely misinformed. [quote name='RR']There is an outbreak of "breeders" breeding these poo and oodle mixes. I am against creating new breeds because: 1- There are already millions of dogs are PTS because of lack of homes 2- I repeatedly read about mix breeders condoning this practice, and see them posting all over to sell puppies, but don't know the name of 1 "breeder" working toward establishing and actual breed club (which is where they would need to start before breeding) with a realistic "breed" standard for the new breed. How would an agreement between "breeders" be reached to determine if the oodledoodle should mirror the traits type and temp. moreso of the oodle or the doodle? How does one say it is alright for "me" to breed my mix but not alright for you to breed your mix? 3- A serious fancier would spay/neuter all of these "test" puppies who are not going to be the right result for several generations until consistency is set. This includes temperament, health, type, ability. Can you see these breeders altering all of their pups before they are purchased? 4- For every 1 serious breeder hoping to establish such a breed there will be a dozen unscrupulous breeders "cashing in". Leading to #5 5- An Explosion in the numbers of dogs being bred, resulting in MORE dogs in shelters. 6- It is essential these "breeders" have a great understanding of canine genetics & health and knowledge of canine anatomy/conformation however many don't. 7- Buyers are under the false impression that because these mixes are $$ Expensive they are getting a well bred quality dog. They are also being made to believe these mixes are already recognized breeds.[/quote]

[quote name='LisaLQ']They are very common in rescues in the UK and Ireland, overseas they're not seen as much. :)[/quote] The occasional Lurcher is born in Sweden as well. It is just that nobody has the audacity to call them lurchers :-) They are called mixes and nothing more. We have no tradition of keeping lurchers and the lurcher is either completely unknown to folks, or they think it is a Deerhound cross.

Breeder is Helena Arh, kennel Wolkowo (she hasn't updated her site in years but you'll find contact info there) [url]http://ksh.fgg.uni-lj.si/WOLKOWO/[/url] Helena co-owns Kristull Coco Chanel with a German kennel, they also co-own a male puppy from me (now 7 months) and he will be the sire of the first Slovenian litter, Coco will probably be in season when Silver is about 1 year old. Let's see if he is old enough then to understand :-) You can see both Coco and Silver at [url]http://www.spirit-of-the-tsar-borzois.de/[/url] click on "past and present" under Silken Windhounds. The rest of the Europan Silkens can be seen at [url]http://www.windhound.com[/url] [url]http://members.surfeu.fi/eija.achren/[/url] [url]http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/siru/[/url] [url]http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tytti10/koirat/[/url] The Finnish Silken Windhound club [url]http://members.surfeu.fi/ssvk/en_index.html[/url] The International Silken Windhound Society [url]http://www.silkenwindhound.org[/url] Here is my own favourite pic of my firstborn puppy :-) [url]http://www.silkenwindhound.com/starcastle/dscf0023.jpg[/url] More general info [url]http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/silkenwindhound.htm[/url] [url]http://centralpets.com/pages/critterpages/mammals/dogs/DOG6032.shtml[/url] My own site [url]www.windhound.com[/url] is probably the most extensive Silken Windhound site on Internet.

Hmm, Slovenia. You will have the first Slovenian Silken Windhound litter later this year I think. Silken Windhound is a breed created from Whippet and Borzoi, it looks like Slovenia is going to recognise the Silken Windhouds this year.

[url]http://www.silkenwindhound.com/starcastle/jul2002/[/url]

4-6 months is the normal time in quarantine in countries with no rabies, if you want to import a dog from a country that is not declared free of rabies. My country has not had rabies for more than a century. Since a couple of years back we changed our import regulations and can now travel with dogs within the European Union if the dogs have gone trough a vaccination and testing program that takes about 6 months. For any countries outside the European countries quarantine is still required, except for countries like Australia, New Zealand, and actually Hawai. Before we changed our regulations we had quarantine even from the rest of Europe except the 3-4 countries that are rabies free. Many times an export from Sweden required that the dog had to be vaccinated for rabies (although WE did not have rabies...) at least 30 days prior to entering their new home country. Since a dog with a rabies vaccination automatically had 100% more rabies in their bodies than any other dog in Sweden, the dog had to be put in quarantine during this 30 day period before export. So I don't find 6 months in quarantine the least odd.

[quote name='Guest Pat']There have been problems associated with all of the heartworm medications and those for fleas and ticks. Many people use them successfully and without incident, but there's no way to detect what dog can or could have a serious or fatal reaction to them.[/quote] Yet. There is rumoured it will soon be possible to test for this by DNA

Some dogs, especially Collie and Collie related breeds, have a problem with the blood/brain barrier letting ivermectin pass. It causes seizures and much too often death. This is a genetic flaw, autosomal recessive deletion mutation in gene encoding for P-glycoprotein to be exact. Don't ask - I dont' understand that either :-) Just because your dog isn't related to Collies doesn't make ivermectin safe. The mutation can pop up in any breed, you actually don't know about your dog until you've tried ivermectin. I never use ivermectin on any of my dogs for any reason. Better safe than sorry. Sussi

Sweden Only the breeder can register the puppies. Breeder decides about names of the puppies. Puppies can not leave home until 8 weeks. No breeder should EVER deliver a puppy without complete registration papers and pedigree, this means 99% of all puppies should be registered early enough for papers to come back before the puppies are 8 weeks old. If you as a breeder, tries to register your litter when they are 5 months old or more, you have a lot of explanation to do and you can't be sure the kennel club will accept your explanations and let you register the puppies. If the kennel club discovers that y ou do not register ALL of your litter, pet quality and good ones alike, you are likely to be expelled and that means no more registering of puppies and no more shows. The kennel club is the monopoly around here. There are different extra rules for some breeds, like some breeds can only register offspring from parents that are free from AD or HD or PRA or whatever is troubling that breed. If not both parents have been shown and acquired at least a second prize in the quality judging (means you are up to standard but with minor faults), the cost of registering puppies is much higher than if your parent dogs are good specimens and do well at shows. You can register a pup that sooner or later will turn out to be a chryptorchid but since you need a vet certicate about the status of balls of the sire to register offpsring, this dog is automatically barred from registering offspring. A bitch should never be bred until her second season, never ever more than 5 litters in a lifetime, she should be able to rest at least one season between litters and if you breed a bitch more than 7 years old you need a health certificate from a vet BEFORE mating testifying this bitch is healthy enough for another litter. I probably forgot just as many other important rules :-)

First of all, keeping the breeding rights in not at all uncommon in Sweden. Many breeders do this routinely for the next best puppy they sell, the do of course keep the most promising. But things can do wrong. The pick of the litter may not fulfill it's promise as a puppy, it may have an accident and die etc. So to keep the breeding rights of the next best puppy in the litter is little bit like an insurance for the breeder to have something left to breed from this combination. When we sell dogs like this it is called "on food". It can be done in 2 ways and is controlled by the kennel club and you should use their papers concerning the deal. First of all: If you have a bitch out on full food, the owner has not paid anything. If you want the bitch to be vaccinated properly, insured etc, the breeder pays for it. It is a little bit different how the deals look about showing and competing. Very often this is the only chance for a non breeder to acquite real high quality at all, and they WANT to show and compete. * Full food means for a bitch, owner pays nothing, breeder has the right to 2 litters until the bitch is 5 years old. If the bitch has never been bred, or just bred once, the breeding rights for the breeder automatically cease when the bitch is 5 years old. Please note; the litters are bred by the BREEDER not the owner of the dog. NEVER by the owner of the dog. All costs are paid for by the BREEDER. The owner has no say in choice of sire, this is entirely up to the breeder. The owner has no right to any of the puppies and cannot help sell any of them. This is the breeders job. When the normal 2 litters have been taken, the dog belongs totally to the owner, including breeding rights. When we are talking about a male on full food, we are talking about no money for the owner and a maximum of 5 matings for the male. What counts as a litter? Any litter that has at least one surviving pup at 8 weeks counts as a litter. Half food. This means the owner pay what is 50% of the going price for a normal of pup of this breed. For a bitch, the breeder keeps the right to have one litter, for males they keep the right of 2 matings. Everything else is as explained above. What the owner has to do is to keep the dog in such condition so it is possible to breed the dog. And they have to let the bitch go for a couple of months to the breeder, before whelping and stay until about 8 weeks after whelping. All costs of transport is paid by the breeder, unless the owner has moved since the original deal was made. In some very rare cases the owner wants to have the litter him/herself. In this case the deal has to renegotiated. Only the breeder of a litter can register the puppies. The breeder is the person who whelped the bitch and raised the puppies. The person who did all the work. Nobody else. This means the food owner has to act as breeder and register the puppies in her(his name. If the breeder tries to register the litter wich he hasn't whelped or raised - this will lead to expulsion from the kennel club both for the breeder and the owner. Because this is fraud, acting like a front for someone else. That is an absolute no-no over here. For the same reason you can't help selling anohter breeders puppies. Then you are acting like front again... Oh, did I mention we don't have puppy mills, no stores selling puppies, almost no rescues and ponds, we don't spay and neuter unless for medical reasons and our dog population are 87% purebred and registered? 65% of all dogs, purebred and mutts, are insured for veterinarian costs. Our total dog population about equals the number of dogs put down every year in US... We also have strict laws about animal abuse. You can't crate a dog for more than an hour except when travelleing. You can't chain a dog somewhere for more than an hour. You can't keep mokeys as a private citizen since you cannot give them the stimulation a intelligent animal of that kind needs. Typical pack animals are not allowed to be kept alone as pets, guinea pigs for instance. There are lot's more, some of it quite silly, but quite a lot of it makes good sense.

[quote name='StarGaze']Hello Sussi, How have you been? I haven't spoke (emailed :fadein: ) you in gosh, a couple years??? How are your babies? Anything new? I was offline (it took up so much of my time) durning that time. I'm back now. Guess what? It's still taking up all my time! :D I hope everything is wonderful with you. I didn't know there were any Silken shows here (US) until recently. I would love to go sometime. There is that LHW show (this weekend or next), but I'm unable to attend. I'm hoping to make it to the next. Take care, Connie[/quote] My third litter is "legally old enough to move away from home" today. 8 weeks. And the first little girl, Sunset was picked up by her new family only 2 hours ago. I am willing to bet that mother Omni can count. There should be 5, now there is only 4 and she is constantly whining, poor Omni. This family has waited almost 2 years for their little Silken girl and they can hardly believe it is true that they finally have one of their own and I think little Sunset will be pretty spoilt:-) See the puppies at [url]http://www.silkenwindhound.com/Starcastle/Puppies/puppies.html[/url] International Silkenfest was held in New Jersey last weekend, first European Specialty in Finland in August. You can see results, photos and critiques at (actually got the written critiques from New Jersey today and they are not up yet) [url]http://www.silkenwindhound.com/Starcastle/News/news.html[/url] On Sunday we have a sighthound show here, Silkens are of course not recognised by we can go there as audience. I am sure some will be p**d off by me coming with my "mutts". At least the last years have brought knowledge about them. First imports came to Sweden in -99 and everybody assumed they were either Borzoi puppies or mutts. Now almost every sighthound person says "oh, it must be one of those ehh, what are they called, eehh, that new breed" :-) Give me a couple of more years and they WILL know the name of the breed too!

[quote name='"StarGaze"']"Guest", I have had LHWs for almost three years, and have yet to have a litter...I'm not aware of any LHW puppy mills. Please hurry with your reply about the locations and facts about all of these LHW puppy mills you speak of. Thanks again, Connie quote] Hi Connie, did you also notice that it was easy to talk about puppy mills but very hard to name any !!?? To tell the truth, if a puppy miller really had LHW, I am sure the LHW people as well as the Silken Windhound people would rush over there to salvage the dogs and also hope to get some good ones that may be incorporated in our breeding programs :-) In Silken Windhounds we have our own rescue program set up. So far we have had to rescue ONE Silken! Sussi

DNA-tests of puppies, mother and all possible fathers easily tell sho sired who. AKC even register litters with more than one sire nowadays.

[quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh']:D TIGGERRESS! :D We made Guest buzz...I mean...go away! Yahoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote] Maybe Guest did not have much of credentials to show and decided to drop out :wink: It is very easy to have opinions, and repeat rumours. Anyone can do that. Guests most of all, they don't have the courage to come forward and tell what they think and stand for it and let their identity be known. I get jumped on quite a lot, for different reasons, but I certainly never try to hide behind anonymity to say what is on my mind. It may not suit everybody and they let me know it. So be it.

[quote] Maybe you shouldn't believe everthing you read on the net :lol: true and [/quote] I didn't just read it. I wrote it :-)

[quote I am absolutely in love with the Silken Windhound from Starcastles picture. I wonder if there might be a suggestion as to how I could see one in person???[/quote] The annual Silkenfest will be held in New Jersey Oct 5 and 6. It is the single largest gathering of Silkens of the year. I am not a specialist on American geography, I think you live in MInnesota, was that right? Guess the nearest breeders would be New Jersey, Washington or Iowa. You can always contact me privately if you want more information.

[quote] Maybe you shouldn't believe everthing you read on the net :lol: ! It amazes me how much 'history' gets changed when people decide it reads better a different way and it changes even faster when profits are in question! If I had the time I'd dig back into the old dog world magazines that show the development of the advertising for this mix to what it is today. Its there if you choose to check it out. [/quote] I have just about every issue of Windhound, Sighthound etc if that is what you mean... [quote] It also clearly shows the 'breeds' are one and the same or developed from the same shaky sources. [/quote] Here is the biography of one of those "shaky" resources. What does your credentials look like? [url]http://www.silkenwindhound.com/Starcastle/History/Francie.pdf[/url] [quote] Not all breeds started as a mix of something else. [/quote] And I guess the Lord himself put the Poodle on earth complete with a pedigree from a kennel club instigated in heaven? [quote] I'm amazed constantly at how many people mouth puppy mill mantras when discussing the mixing of dogs for sale to the gullible at high prices. I guess its true if you say something often enough people will believe it is true and then think any truth offered is a lie.[/quote] A pet quality Silken Windhound can be had for about 250-300 US dollar. In my country you have to pay about twice that amount for a mutt... But I guess the perception of high prices are different and depends on your circumstanses and what luck you've had in life.

You seem to forget something important. AKC only matters in USA. And the world is whole lot bigger place than just USA and outside USA AKC does not mean squat. Sorry, but that is the truth. Kennel clubs and what breeds they recognise or not, is entirely on national levels. What is a recognised breed in one country is considered a mutt in another. There is no such thing as a universal concept of what is a recognised breed. Not even inside FCI the same breeds are recognised everywhere. And many countries associated with FCI recognises breeds that are not recognised by FCI. And certainly not by AKC since there is not one single dog from those breeds within USA. The "recognition" is actually not such a big deal, it is a pretty local phenomenon. Something people always seem to forget as they go on in their own little duckpond believing it to be the center of the world.

[quote name='Anonymous']I remember meeting the originator of this mixbred dog. He had both Shelties and Whippets in his kennels. The 'windhounds' were a mix of both breeds/ AKC decided that this was so after serious investigation into the 'long haired whippets' the breeder maintained the dogs were and refused to register any of the offspring Anyone who saw the dogs would have understood why - they were as timid as the people's shelties were and showed obvious family resemblance to the Sheltie line they had and also showed all the worst traits the lines of both breeds the people showed. The mills jumped right on this 'new breed' as a profit maker and many still are sold through mills here. Pretty pups but not a real breed even if some have been exported to gullible souls elsewhere.[/quote] Maybe you should read up on the history somewhat [url]http://www.silkenwindhound.com/Starcastle/History/history_I.pdf[/url] Among other things it describes the fact that the "longhaired Whippet" and the Silken Windhound are 2 breeds, different genepools, different studbooks, different standards and different looks. Types differ, the color palette differs. Lot's of things are very much different. All breeds start out as a mix of something else. That goes without saying. How else could they come into being? The key question is - when have they become a breed of their own?