Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Guest... The more you post...the firmer my conviction is that you are a wantabe with no experience and lack reading comprehension. I never recommended socalled heavy handed tactics. The appropriate training is dependent on the individual dog and the particular behavior. That is why trainers ask questions. There is no one universal approach for all dogs and all behaviors. An adult dog with a true biting problem must be dealt with a firmer approach than what you are suggesting. I and others don't consider them heavy handed or cruel...the dog is never injured. And there is positive reinforcement incorporated as well but I'm sure it is not what you perceive. And usually these dogs are aggressive dogs who have previously bit causing serious injury...not playful biting. Perhaps you can cite a source of a different training method for aggressive dogs with a history of serious biting. I would be very interested in viewing it. [quote]protection training for guard dog work [/quote] protection training is another term for attack training. Attack trained dogs are trained when to bite and when not to and when to stop....most common example is for police work. These same techniques are commonly employed in behavior modification to train a dog who indiscriminately bites. Your comments on this are just a further indication that you don't have a clue about what I'm talking about. Do some more reading and get some personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 [quote name='Jacsmom']Guest No bite worked with mine but I also incorporated time out per say. When mine get to playing to rough I would leave or quit playing. But when they were pups I used no bite and they quit biting and nipping. No rough harsh treatment with it. No hollaring either just a deep toned no bite. Like you said though different breeds respond in different ways to different things. :wink:[/quote] Jacsmom: I always teach our pups the word "OFF". It is an easy command to teach. They are taught this at a very young age and the teaching continues thru-out their life. Among other commands - sit, down, go-behind, left, right, go-under, on-top, 100's of other commands, etc.... it's really fun for the pups because their training is not work, never, ever work, it's ALL play. They learn quicker when things are positive. Of course, sometimes I have to be serious and use a growl in my voice (usually occurs during the terrible two's!!). They know their commands and are expected to be mannered. Puppies have such a short attention span that their training is spread out all day --- and they don't even know they are being trained! The go-behind is useful for shoestring biters, ones that insist on getting in front of you and stopping (they are just trying to get attention), when there is danger ahead, etc... This continues also when they start herd training (we raise herding bred dogs). Go-behind can be used to find toys, get behind you, etc... OFF is used for everything that I want them to come off of.....my feet, my chair, snakes, glass, other dogs, things that may hurt them, etc... It is very effective and positive. Never have I used choke collars, as they can damage the esophogus and/or trachea --- no matter how correctly they are used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 [quote name='hazelhover']Ug! I have an aussie and they are natorious for this! We also used "NO BITE!!!" and the squirt bottle, and even the occasional tap on the nose. I am happy to say for the most part she has stopped. She does however seem to have a really hard time resisting my 3 year old boy who loves to run and scream at the same time (I think he does this just to taunt her!) but now instead of going for skin, which gets a response she does NOT like, she grabs his shirt and yanks him to a stop. Once he's stopped she leaves him alone to begine that game again! The major problem we are working on right now is biting wheels on toy trucks as they are being pushed about the yard, she's getting better, but when no adult is watching (and she checks!) she grabs hold and growls! It's kinds funny caus she usually ends up with her nose in the dirt or a paw under the truck... sigh :lol:[/quote] By Aussie, I assume this is an Australian Shepherd? Do you get onto your son for running? Like running in the house, or running blindly around the yard? The Aussie is re-inforcing your rules. She is just inforcing the rules of the house. It is obvious she has no respect for your son. He is omega to her and is at the bottom of the pack. Maybe you should try to channel her "herding instinct" onto something more productive and useful and away from the toys and grabbing your son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Ok let me clear a few things up... for one thing Simon, my 3 year old, is the only child she actually grabs... and she never grabs his skin just his shirt. If he's running naked... like the last few days she doesn't even chase him. We do use a toy to keep her on track and off the kids. I am aware that it's dangerous to let her do this and honestly it's not some thing I encourage. Dean, my 5 year old, is no longer chased as he lets her know this isn't his game with a resounding "NO". Simon is still working on this... But in all else she listens well to him, even to sit and lay down. I understand where you are comming from.... I don't want my pup running down small children, which she did when she was younger... and I am working with Simon to not run and try to get her to tackle him. I am not going to tell him not to run, it doesn't work with a 3 year old when he's out doors. If you have suggestions on how to safely stop this behavior I would greatly appreciate it..... she is our first and only aussie and I want her to be safe for everybody. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 hazelhover I think you should direct your attention to the dog and not your 3 year old. Your dog needs training, not your son. It is very obvious based on the statements you made about the dog that this dog really does have a problem. And I don't understand your attempt at minimizing the dog's behavior by saying that he now is only grabbing clothing. My only recommendation to you is to bring the dog to a qualified trainer who can objectively evaluate his behavior and train you how to handle the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng1zrule Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 [quote name='abusser']when do puppies teeth? Mine is 8 weeks old and have the same biting and jumping up on me problem. I try to keep walking and saying NO in a low voice but this seems to just get him more excited. I've only had him a few days so i'm going to work with him a lot this weekend.[/quote] when mine jumped on me I used a handsignal to make her sit, then petted her as a reward. I refused to touch her until she sat, then i would gently scratch behind her ears and praise her. this has worked with most of my dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 [quote name='nicki']hazelhover I think you should direct your attention to the dog and not your 3 year old. Your dog needs training, not your son. It is very obvious based on the statements you made about the dog that this dog really does have a problem. And I don't understand your attempt at minimizing the dog's behavior by saying that he now is only grabbing clothing. My only recommendation to you is to bring the dog to a qualified trainer who can objectively evaluate his behavior and train you how to handle the dog.[/quote] Nicki, Just wondering how many Aussie's you've trained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 [quote name='hazelhover']Ok let me clear a few things up... for one thing Simon, my 3 year old, is the only child she actually grabs... and she never grabs his skin just his shirt. If he's running naked... like the last few days she doesn't even chase him. We do use a toy to keep her on track and off the kids. I am aware that it's dangerous to let her do this and honestly it's not some thing I encourage. Dean, my 5 year old, is no longer chased as he lets her know this isn't his game with a resounding "NO". Simon is still working on this... But in all else she listens well to him, even to sit and lay down. I understand where you are comming from.... I don't want my pup running down small children, which she did when she was younger... and I am working with Simon to not run and try to get her to tackle him. I am not going to tell him not to run, it doesn't work with a 3 year old when he's out doors. If you have suggestions on how to safely stop this behavior I would greatly appreciate it..... she is our first and only aussie and I want her to be safe for everybody. :wink:[/quote] Hazelhover - email: [email][email protected][/email] She helped me tremendously with my herding-bred dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous'] Jacsmom: I always teach our pups the word "OFF". It is an easy command to teach. They are taught this at a very young age and the teaching continues thru-out their life. Among other commands - sit, down, go-behind, left, right, go-under, on-top, 100's of other commands, etc.... it's really fun for the pups because their training is not work, never, ever work, it's ALL play. They learn quicker when things are positive. Of course, sometimes I have to be serious and use a growl in my voice (usually occurs during the terrible two's!!). They know their commands and are expected to be mannered. Puppies have such a short attention span that their training is spread out all day --- and they don't even know they are being trained! The go-behind is useful for shoestring biters, ones that insist on getting in front of you and stopping (they are just trying to get attention), when there is danger ahead, etc... This continues also when they start herd training (we raise herding bred dogs). Go-behind can be used to find toys, get behind you, etc... OFF is used for everything that I want them to come off of.....my feet, my chair, snakes, glass, other dogs, things that may hurt them, etc... It is very effective and positive. Never have I used choke collars, as they can damage the esophogus and/or trachea --- no matter how correctly they are used.[/quote] Funny to hear because that is what I use with him is "OFF". It works rather well and he responds quite nicely. I started this because I wanted down left for other commands. Husband taught the other lab with down command. He is having to retrain himself to use 'Off' now. :D Jac is coming along great with commands but being I am the one training he listens to me 90% of the time and hubby 10% of the time. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 Hazelhover, I had to laugh at this visual and, if anyone is easily offended, stop reading at this point... I'm envisioning your 3 year old son getting his clothes "nipped" by the dog since that's all the dog nabs. However, when you mentioned him running around naked, all I could think was that I hope the dog doesn't go for the next most prominent thing to grab! I mean this in a humorous sense and not in a "vicious dog" sense, or a weirdo, pervy sense. It made me laugh to think about it. :lol: I guess I sort of trained my dogs right, or maybe not... around here the catch phrase is, "KNOCK IT OFF!" (usually in reference to barking). No matter what they're doing that I want stopped, it's, "knock it off." I don't know where that came from... I guess because it's the same thing I tell people who get on my nerves. I'm not a doggie shrink, but, hey, they understand what I'm saying. :roll: Seriously, what I've done in the past with an aggressive-wanna-be pupster is look them squarely in the eye and growl at them. Of course, I'm speaking of a normal situation where a pooch may be trying to establish a pecking order and not of a situation where some monster has me pinned to the ground by my throat. Obviously, I'm not going to growl at that dog (I'll be too busy soiling myself). It may be the wrong thing to do (uh, growling... not soiling myself), but I've never had one not back off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 [quote name='nicki']Guest... snip more low level jibes.[/quote] The more you post the surer I am you read a book writen by an old style trainer and think you know it all :lol: Attack training and protection/guard dog training are not the same thing at all though a few of the heavier handed techniques are the same the results are different - the fact that you don't know the difference is pretty sad. So far you have tried to intimidate me with dogs (too bad for you that I've trained so many dogs in the last 30 years that other people thought were 'bad' that I find your 'dares' ludicrous) claimed that I know nothing about training when you keep showing that you know nothing yourself, and have not come up with a single solution to help anyone with their dog. I sense you are quite fearful of being bitten and have no clue about the words 'bite inhibition' when applied to dogs. Do check out the links and sources posted as a start on an education in appropriate training methods for today's trainers. Quiz for you who is Ian Dunbar who is John Rogerson who is Karen Pryor who is Gary Wilkes who is Turid Rugaas what new things did they bring to dog behavior management and training? My guess is you know who the Monks of New Skete were and who William Koehler was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 Okay nikki, you are a dog trainer and you MAY be all that, but i have read this discussion many times and all i see is you telling everybody how stupid their ideas are but not one suggestion from you exept "take him to a trainer" well some people dont want to spend a lot of $$ when they can train them for themselves. If your puppy is biting what do you do? If you are as you say, and i do belive you, a trainer, do you take your dog to annother trainer or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 [quote]Okay nikki, you are a dog trainer and you MAY be all that, but i have read this discussion many times and all i see is you telling everybody how stupid their ideas are but not one suggestion from you exept "take him to a trainer" well some people dont want to spend a lot of $$ when they can train them for themselves. If your puppy is biting what do you do? If you are as you say, and i do belive you, a trainer, do you take your dog to annother trainer or something? [/quote] If you look back on this thread, I stated that more information was needed to ascertain what behavior the owner was really complaining about. All the particulars...size, age, breed, who/what being biten, under what cirucmstances...all bear on the appropriate response. There is no one size fits all solution like so many think there is. A good trainer first asks questions...and if possible...observes. Too many people are to quick in offering advice when they don't even know what the real problem is. And there are very few people who have had experience in aggressive/biting dogs. Most trainers (and there aren't a whole lot of them to begin with) are making a quick buck with sit, down, heel. Probably less than 10% handle aggressive dogs, behavior modification and sophisicated training like SAR. So maybe you can tell me why so many people who have not had experience in this field are so willing to offer advice. Do you think you were qualified to offer advice to the person who had an aggressive dog who had already bit a kid. You told him to laugh at the dog. I didn't say that advice was stupid in my original response, but I'll tell you now that it was stupid and irresponsible. I can think of two posts recently whereby I advised people to consult with a trainer. In both cases, I felt the owner was not realistically interpreting the dog's behavior. They did not fully accept the seriousness of the dog's behavior yet. The first step is for the owner to realize the problem and not to minimize it or make excuses for it. I recommended a trainer in both cases because I felt the trainer would be in a better position to convince the owner that there really was a problem. As far as your comment that many people don't want to spend the $$$, many people are not qualified to train their own dog. You don't sound mature enough or responsible enough to even attempt to train a dog...especially one who may be aggressive. As we get older in life, we learn that we all can't do everything. Sometimes you gotta pay. And no, I don't take my dogs to another trainer. But I did initially become a trainer after I took to a trainer a GSD that I rescued that was ordered to be put down cuz she seriously bit so many people. And after he trained me how to train her, I ended up working with him. So you are not going to hear quick fixes from me on such serious behavioral problems. I only offer detailed advice when I know all the facts and I know the owner is capable of such training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 Last post was mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 [b][color=blue][/color][size=7][/size]Hi!! I know exactly what to do that will definitley fix your problem!!!!! Okay 1st get a 6 ft. leash or so and a choke chain and try to convince her/him to bite you when it starts to jerk the leash towards you and say NO BITE!!! Continue to do this until the dog won't anymore. 1-2 weeks she'll/he'll never bite again I guarantee that if you do it right. I hope it helps!!! ~Labsrcool32[/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 [quote name='Labsrcool32'][b][color=blue][/color][size=7][/size]Hi!! I know exactly what to do that will definitley fix your problem!!!!! Okay 1st get a 6 ft. leash or so and a choke chain and try to convince her/him to bite you when it starts to jerk the leash towards you and say NO BITE!!! Continue to do this until the dog won't anymore. 1-2 weeks she'll/he'll never bite again I guarantee that if you do it right. I hope it helps!!! ~Labsrcool32[/b][/quote] [size=6]AAAAUUUUGGHHHHHH! PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS![/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 why not instead use bitter apple or bitter lime. when the dog bites spray it in his mouth. it's an awful taste and he won't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 [quote=Kahlua&Helmsley'sMom]why not instead use bitter apple or bitter lime. when the dog bites spray it in his mouth. it's an awful taste and he won't like it.[/quote] We use the bitter apple when we test for leaks in our respirator equipment. I can tell you from experience, it tastes terrible! That information had nothing to do with anything, just thought I'd tell you that it does taste nasty........and you taste it for a long time. I can imagine that dogs would find it rather repulsive, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 lol... I know!!! I used it with my rescue ferret. I used to put it on my hands so she would learn not to bite me and a few times I put it on and then on my way to get her out of the cage I would bite my nail or something and it was awful!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 [quote name='Labsrcool32'][b][color=blue][/color][size=7][/size]Hi!! I know exactly what to do that will definitley fix your problem!!!!! Okay 1st get a 6 ft. leash or so and a choke chain and try to convince her/him to bite you when it starts to jerk the leash towards you and say NO BITE!!! Continue to do this until the dog won't anymore. 1-2 weeks she'll/he'll never bite again I guarantee that if you do it right. I hope it helps!!! ~Labsrcool32[/b][/quote] Have you read the first post, this is a TOY BREED not that this method would be correct for any breed, what do you want to do snap its neck, honestly, i could tell you many things to do but none of them would be humane or correct, You should treat your puppy firm but always fairly, puppy should know you are top dog ot alpha dog, if pup gets into the over the top biting nipping hysterical mode, a quick shake by the scuff of the neck is what her mother would do to her, it will not hurt her, if any thing it will shock her into hey if i nip i get shook, try it, but not the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 [quote=Kahlua&Helmsley'sMom]why not instead use bitter apple or bitter lime. when the dog bites spray it in his mouth. it's an awful taste and he won't like it.[/quote] Because this does not teach the dog anything except to avoid stuff sprayed with bitter spray. Training is a much better solution and here is the reason why [url]http://www.clickersolutions.com/clickersolutions/articles/biteinhibit.htm[/url] I'm an advocate of training vs choking, hurting, poisoning, shocking dogs. I would expect any good trainer to also be in favor of teaching vs hurting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 [quote name='Labsrcool32'][b][color=blue][/color][size=7][/size]Hi!! I know exactly what to do that will definitley fix your problem!!!!! Okay 1st get a 6 ft. leash or so and a choke chain and try to convince her/him to bite you when it starts to jerk the leash towards you and say NO BITE!!! Continue to do this until the dog won't anymore. 1-2 weeks she'll/he'll never bite again I guarantee that if you do it right. I hope it helps!!! ~Labsrcool32[/b][/quote] This is an excellent way to injure a pup's neck and teach it nothing about bite inhibition. The difference between a dog that is bite inhibited and one that does not bite normally is very wide. The latter dog may well hit you with level 5 bites in a panic or pain situation the former won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Uh... bitter apple did absolutly nothing for me. I would spray the kids down when we first got Hazel.... she would still grab them, and I even did it as a last resort to save my potted plants on the pourch... she ate an air fern and tried eating my 15 year old cactus! (poor Pokie, yes I name my plants!) Since my last post I have really worked hard to keep Hazel from grabbing Simon. They still wrestle, but the grabbing when he runs is almost to an end. We have started her on a frisbee (i know, typicle) and now it's chase the dog and tackle her, or rather the frisbee. I was not really concerned with her grabbing untill you all said something. I figured it was a game they both liked and now it's a game that only Simon likes... but doesn't get to do. We are now working on the bike tires, sigh. Everytime she barks at them she gets tied up, which is the worst punishment for her as she can't be with her people! She is getting better. On the flip side she shows no interest in car tires or larger bike tires, and definatly hates the riding lawnmower! So thank you for all your help, and Hazel thanks you too! Just a side note, we spent the weekend in a household FULL of children and she didn't jump up on anybody and really left the little ones alone (She just loves to lick thier faces but even refrained from that :D ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 I'm very sorry to here that!!!! If you watch professional dog training shows you would know the way to do this!!! Choke Chains/corrective chains won't hurt a dog's neck they're built for this. It may be a toy dog so you don't really need a chain but you can still do the corrective jerk when it bites! I would never do anything to hurt a dog!! :x [color=orange][/color][size=6][/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 [quote name='Labsrcool32']I'm very sorry to here that!!!! If you watch professional dog training shows you would know the way to do this!!! Choke Chains/corrective chains won't hurt a dog's neck they're built for this. It may be a toy dog so you don't really need a chain but you can still do the corrective jerk when it bites! I would never do anything to hurt a dog!! :x [color=orange][/color][size=6][/size][/quote] This is a barbaric, old style of AKC training (abusing). Just because some "claims" to be a professional does not make them suitable for training. I bet these same people have never studied dog behaviour. Put this choke chain around your neck with a leash attached, let your friend hold the leash and you two go for a walk. At RANDOM (without warning to you) let your friend jerk this chain VERY quick and hard and then tell me it doesn't hurt! :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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