Heel!!!!!1

[Guest Anonymous]

I have no experience at all with the halti, so I can't weigh in on that, but I detest the use of pinchers and chokers on my own dogs. I suppose different dogs, like people, react to discipline and training in different ways, so, naturally, what works for one dog might not work as well with others. I took my black lab through Delta Society's training program for therapy dogs. He was an adult when we adopted him, but he is easily trainable and eager to please. Tucker (my lab) was a bit of a challenge at first. He wanted to pull and yank and do all the stuff that untrained dogs will do. The "certified" trainer put a pinch collar on him and proceeded to yank him where ever he was supposed to go (this was after yanking him around with a plain choker). Hard. From the way he yelped, I'm quite sure it was more than uncomfortable. Undoubtedly, the trainer was not using this collar correctly. Tucker began "shutting down." He went from a dog who was eager to go anywhere and meet anyone to a dog who was fearful of leaving his yard. No doubt, with the way he was being treated. I ditched the pincher collar training in a hurry and began working with him diligently at home using positive reinforcement. I'm not much of a weinie and I don't mind being in charge of my dogs, but I will not subject them to blatant cruelty and I believe that too many people misuse these collars (even self proclaimed "professional trainers") and that they [b]are[/b] cruel (again, when misused). I'm not sure that I believe that it takes any kind of negative reinforcement to train a dog (which I differentiate from discipline... a whole different can of worms in which I will use negative reinforcement if necessary). At least, it hasn't with mine. Again, I suppose different methods work for different dogs. With mine... any one of the eight of them, I've found that once the light goes on... once they know that I'm trying to teach them something, they respond eagerly just for the sake of pleasing me. Even more so than for treats. I don't have any of the huge breeds (my lab is the biggest thing in my house), so a more "aggressive" (for lack of a better word) approach may indeed work best for the big 'uns. I just haven't needed it. I am intrigued by clicker training and am hoping to learn more about it.

By the way, Tucker aced his test, got his certification and is now a perfectly well mannered, well socialized fellow. All without any further negative reinforcement. :D

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Horsefeathers']snip
Again, I suppose different methods work for different dogs. snip
:D[/quote]
Thanks for the good examples of how people learn to use the nicer ways of training :-)
Pain training works for dogs for sure and dogs of many different breeds too, that's why it has stuck around since the days when dogs were being brutally trained for war work and dogs that washed out were simply returned home or killed.
The original German training collar was the pinch collar - they felt the choker collar was inhumane but when the trainers over here in the US started using them the pinch collar looked more horrifying so the choker was introduced as the training collar from Germany. :roll:
I think the big difference is exactly what you saw - you *can* teach people to force their dogs to obey using pain control techniques (heck I bet there are a number of humans who could be repidly trained that way too :wink: ) but its not the method of choice for people who have personally seen and experienced how great the positive methods work to teach dogs stuff!
I have both giant and toy breeds and I would not use a choke of any kind on either due to neck problems showing up later in life - a flat collar and positive motivation work just fine and best of all the relationship with the dog gets better not worse as it can for some using pain methods. After all what are we thinking telling people hey its ok to hurt the dog to train it? what does that do for the relationships there? or for the way humans view their pets?
Best of all with positive training techniques you don't have to be strong, physically able or bigger and tougher than the dog you own in order to get it doing just what you want when you want.
I don't buy the 'lots of trainers do it this way' message as lots of people do things I won't with their pets - just think of all the people who throw their pets away each year due to behavior problems for an easy example! Or all the trainers who still use the ear pinch method to train a dog to fetch.
More and more trainers who have seen the fun and the results of positive training methods are turning to them and I think that is a great thing for the dogs and their owners!

[Guest Anonymous]

I practically got the third degree when I got my puppy! And was I angery? NO! I understand that certain breeds of dogs need certain types of people. An aussie is not for the couch potato (although Hazel pretty darn laid back for an aussie) and a St. Bernard is not for the faint of heart! (Or any one lacking in dog food funds :D ). Most of the time people see a dog and think wow what a cool dog!. My first newfie I met I thought was a bear!! (literally thought this lady was walking a bear down the road, I almost ran the other way!) But once you meet these dogs they are so lovable that I could see someone running out to get one!!! I mean what a great dog! But then you have to train it, bath and brush it (and I am sure that takes the better part of a day!) and feed it.... (how much dog food do you go through in a week?) And I have a feeling that the third degree is a great way to make sure that your puppies (if you're a breeder) don't make it into the pound! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='K']snip
I am interested in teaching my Staffs to fetch have not got that far with Saint yet(slow but steady with a Saint)Staffs respond to all other training and games well but look at me gone out when I throw stuff to "fetch" even if they have been playing with said item only one second before!!
snip:[/quote]

Try this - find something they might be interested in first - it can be a green branch, a sock, a glove, a paper towel roll with towels on it or not - so that is task number one finding something they think is interesting. For hard cases a treat in the rolled sock or glove might work to make it more interesting or just rubbing a smelly treat on the item.
Toss the item not far from you and the dog (the dog should be near you for starting this game) use the cue word you plan to use and then Praise the dog for ANY motion towards the item and act excited. Pick the item up if the dog does not and praise the dog while offering it to be grabbed.
Toss the item again -get even more excited if you can manage it :-) repeat until dog goes and grabs object and moves back to you. Praise like mad and food reward. Act excited and happy.
So say its a sock that motivates the dog and you want to play ball - once the dog will go get the sock and bring it back put a ball in the toe of the sock and toss it again. Work up to it being just the ball that is the toy.
Tennis balls can be made more interesting by burying them in the dog kibble for a day :-) socks from the hamper are usually more interesting than clean ones :-) Let the dog start out by playing the game with the things he finds interesting and work to it being the item you want to play with once he knows the game is fun and rewarding.
Hope this helps :-) I saw a dog of a real non-fetching breed, a Leonberger, taught to play fetch at a seminar in about 15-20 minutes once the item he liked to grab up was discovered by giving him lots of items to choose from.

[Guest Anonymous]

Haa haa, I used this method and didn't know it!!! It really does work, although not that fast for me. I always had labs growing up and when we got an australian shepherd I just assumed that all dogs know fetch.... :lol:. Well I can tell you she learned all her basic obedience before she learned fetch!!! I could teach her to sit, but not to chase a ball. Well now she chases everything, most often the frisbee or a soccer ball.... more often then that my children! :D (needless to say, we are still working on the bring it back here. It's much more fun to see the stupid humans chasing after you!) :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='K']Newfiemom, a black Saint...lord preserve us!!! :lol:
Guest...thanks a lot for all that info I will give it a try...not too sure about making socks smell like food though as in puppyhood they have eaten some already :D (came out in one peice other end though :o )
Hazelhover...my Staffs think is much more sensible to wait for mum to bring back the thing she threw away!! :-?[/quote]

Remember don't throw it too far and work on rewarding any effort towards what you want.
If not socks (I just used them as an example) an old t-shirt tied in knots might work too - the key is finding out if they won't chase a ball what will they show interest in :-) and each dog is different in that - one guy found his dog liked branches but only leafy ones :-)
And special for the person who's dog runs away with the toy when they get it - next time the dog does this you run the other way - bet the dog will start chasing you and then you can praise it for coming towards you with the thrown toy. Not far from that to getting the dog to come and trade toy for a treat or another toy thrown :-)

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't know why the minute someone mentions the use of chain "choke" collars and prongs, people want to say that it's cruel and yadda yadda yah.

I don't like chokers because a dog can still pull and choke himself doing it.

I used a prong on my rottie and I'm using one on my dobie. You don't need to pull on it, the dog corrects itself every time it pulls. I even tested this collar on my arm (yes that sounds crazy but I wanted to feel what it was like.) You don't need a prong collar for life either. My rottie went straight back to a normal nylon collar.

[GizmoRedNosePit]

Lina Star go to my post of the Gentle leader and Chinook collars....there is a website and there is another way other then the listed above ways! The gentle learder sounds like what you need.... :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='sashagirl']I am going today after work to get the gentle leader and give it a try... I will let everyone know. :wink:[/quote]

Please read the instruction book thoroughly before 'trying' it on your dog as you choose to try the tool without working with a trainer.
also I suggest reading the info at [url]www.gentleleader.com[/url]

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='hazelhover']Hello out there!
Can any one tell me how to teach a dog to heel? Our last one came "pretrained" and would heel even without a leash (good dog!). Hazel however will just about choke herself everytime she sees a kid or another dog! She's only 3 months, is this too early to leash train? I would like to train her before she reaches her estimated 40 or so lbs.
thanks for the help[/quote] I think what you need to teach your dog is not only to heel, or walk beside you, but to stop pulling on the leash. In a book about Yorkshire Terriers, in the section about heeling and pulling on the leash, the book says this:


[color=green][b]Walk by Your Side[/b][/color]

Many people attempt to teach a dog to heel by putting him on a leash and physically correcting the dog when he makes mistakes. There are a number of things seriously wrong whit this approach, the first being that most people do not want precision heeling;rather, they simply want the dog to follow or walk by their sid. Second, when physically restrained during "training," enven though the dog may grudgingly mope by your side when "handcuffed" on leash, let's see what heppens when he is off leash. History! The dog is in the next county because he never enjoyed walking with you on leash and you have no control oven him off leash. So let's just teach the dog off leash for the outset to [u]want[/u] to walk with us. Third, if the dog has not been trained to heel, it is a trifle hasty to think about punishing the poor dog for making mistakes and breaking heeling rules he didn't even know existed. This is simply not fair! Surely, if the dog had been adequately taught to heel, he would seldom make mistakes and hence there would be no need to correct the dog. Remember, each mistake and each correction(punishment) advertise the trainer's inadequacy, not the dog's. The dog is not stubborn, he is not stupid, and he is not bad. Even if he were, he would still require training, so let's train him properly.

Let's teach the dog to [u]enjoy[/u] following us and to [u]want[/u] to walk by our side offleash. Then it will be easier to teach high-precision off-leash heeling patterns if desired. After attaching the leash for safety on outdoor walks, but before going anywhere, it is necessary to teach the dog specifically not to pull. Now it will be much easier to teach on-leash walking and heeling because the dog already wants to walk with you, he is familiar with the desired walking and heeling positions and he knows not to pull.

[color=green][b]Following[/b][/color]

Start by training your dog to follow you. Many puppies will follow if you simply walk away from them and maybe click your fingers or chuckle. Adult dogs may require additional enticement to stimulate them to follow, such as a training lure or, at the very least, a lively trainer. To teach the dog to follow: (1) keep walking and (2) walk away from the dog. If the dog attempts to lead or lag, change pace; slow down if the dog forges too far ahead, but speed up if he lags too far behind. Say "steady!" or "Easy!" each time before you slow down and "Quickly!" or "Hustle!" each time before you speed up, and the dog will learn to change pace on cue. If the dog las or leads too fars, or if he wanders right or left, simply walk quickly in the opposite direction and maybe even run away from the dog and hide.

Practicing is a lot of fun; you can set up a course in your home, yard or park to do this. Indoors, enitce the dog to follow upstairs, into a bedroom, into the bathroom downstairs, around the living room couch, zig-zaggin between dining room chairs and into the kitchen for dinner. Outdoors, get the dog to follow around park benches, trees, shrubs and along walk-ways and lines in the grass. ( For safety outdoors, it is advisable to attach a long line on the dog, but never exert corrective tension on the line.)

Remember, following has a lot to do with attitude- your attitude! Most probably your dog will not want to follow Mr. Grumpy Troll with the personality of wilted lettuce. Lighten up-walk with a jaunty step, wistle a happy tune, sing, skip and tell jokes to your dog and he will be right there by your side.


[color=green][b]By Your Side[/b][/color]

It is smart to train the dog to walk close on one side or the other-either side will do, your choice. When walking- jogging or cycling, it is generally bad news to have the dog suddenly cut in front of you. In fact, I train my dogs to walk "by my side" and "other side"- both very useflul instructions. It is possible to position the dog fairly accurately by looking to the appropriate side and clicking your fingers or slapping your thigh on that side. A precise positioning may be attained by holding a training lur, such as a chewtoy, tennis ball, or food treat. Stop and stand still several times throughout the walk, just as you would when window shopping or meeting a friend. Use the lure to make sure the dog slows down and stays close whenever you stop. When teaching the dog to heel, we generally want he to sit in heel position when we stop. Teach heel position at the standstill and the dog will learn that the default heel position is sitting by your side(left or right-your choice, unless you wish to compete in obedieve trials, in which cause the dog must heel on the left).

Several times a day, stand up and call your dog to come and sit in heel position-"Fido, heel!" For example, instruct the dog to come to heel each time there are commercial on TV, or each time you turn a page of a novel, and the dog will get it in a single evening.

Practioce straight-line heeling and turns separately. With the dog sitting at heel, teach him to turn in place. After each quarter-turn, half-turn, or full turn in place, lure the dog to sit at heel. Now it's time for short straight-line heeling sequences, no more thatn a few steps at a time. Always think of heeling in terms of Sit-Heel-Sit sequences- start and end with the dog in position and do your best to keep him there when moving. Progressibely increase the number of steps n each sequence. When the dog remains close for 20 yards of straight-line heeling it is time to add a few turns and then sign up for a happy-heeling obedience class to get some advice from the experts.


[color=green][b]No Pulling On Leash[/b][/color]

You can start teaching your dog not to pull on leash anywhere- ing fromt of the television or outdoors-but regardless of lovation, you must not talk a single step with tension in the leash. For a reason known only to dogs, even just a coouple of paces of pulling on leash is intrinsically motivating and diabolically rewarding. Instead, attach the leash to the dog's collar, grasp the other end firmly with both hands held close to your chest, and stand still- do not budge and inch. Have somebody watch you with a stopwatch to time your progress, or else you will never believe this will work and so you will not even try the exercise, and your shoulder and the dog's neck willbe truamatized for years to come.

Stand still and wait for the dog to stop pulling,and to sit and or lie down.
all dogs stop pulling and sit eventually. Most tlak only a couple of mintes; the all-time record is 22 minutes. Time how long it talkes . Gently praise the dog when he stops pullig, and as soon as he sits, enthusiastically praise the dog and talk just one step forwards, then immediately stand still. This simgle step usually demonstrates the ballistic reinforcing nature of pulling on leash; most dogs explode to the end of the leash, so be prepaared for the strain. Stand firm and wait for the dog to sit again. Repeat the half a dozen times and you will probaby notice a progressive reduction in the force of the dog's on-step explosion and a radical reduction in the time it talkses for the dog to sit each time.

as the dog learns"sit wego" and "ull we stop," she will begin to walk forward calmly with each single step and automatically sit when you stop. Now try two steps befor you stop. wooooooo! scary! when the dog has mastered two steps at atime, try for three. after each succes, progressively increase the number of steps in the sequece: try four steps and then six, eight, ten , and twenty steps befor stopping, Congratulations! You are now walking the dog on leash.


~~~~~~~~~~~hope i have helped!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest Anonymous]

I know I have said this before, but McKenzie absolutley pulled me to death. It was quite annoying to try to take her walking. I tried and tried. I had almost decide to give up. I spent every moment I could trying to just get her to walk around the yard. She about killed me. I then found the anti pull harness. I love that thing. By now she weighed 35 lbs so I really didn't think it owuld work either, but it did. Last time I metioned this I got rude guest comments, so I am gonna go ahead and say no its not painful. The way it works is that if they pull it pulls back on there front shoulders, which they do not like. After the first time I put McKenzie on it I was amazed. I put her on the harness and she took off. She made it about 3 steps. It pulled back and she sat down. Now I take her walking. We walk 2 miles. At first I had to use the harness the whole way, but she will walk amost perfectly without it now. Sometimes if she is super excited I have to use it for the first 4 or 5 minutes, but then I just hook the leash to her collar. I would try to get her to walk by my side without the leash, but I don't want doggy road kill!!!!!! I would never be able to forgive myself if somethind happened to her.

Now as for choke/check chains, I actually wanted to get one, but my husband wasn't real hot on the idea. He was afraid as hard as McKenzie pulled that she might choke herself. He was right we did try it once, she still pulled like crazy and choked herself like crazy, so it wasn't the best thing for us. I am sure it works great for some people. but all devices arent for every dog. Some dogs can use some things some cant

I don't really like the pinch collar either, but that is my opinion. I would not judge someone for using it unless I saw the dog and it was in visable pain. I have never had any expierence with pinch collars, but if it works for you more power to ya!

The best advice I know to give on what to use is that its a try and try again thing. Try several different ones to see what works better for you and to see your preference. Everyone has a preference and certain things work better for certain dogs. It's a trial and error sort of thing.

Good Luck training your dog!

[Guest Anonymous]

Just to let you know...
I let my husband train her, I have no idea what he did (and I was right there) but all we used was one of those dogy harnesses (not the leader) and he would pull the leash and tell her heal, when she responded he would praise her... I didn't see alot of it because I was chasing the kids around the park at the time, but now you say heal and she does so! Still working on heal with distractions like other dogs, but it's nice to walk her and not be walked by her. BTW he did not yank her around or yell at her... I guess he did Koko our last dog as well and she almost never needed a leash as "heal" would bring her to walk by your side... maybe he's a dog whisperer :o

[Smooshie]

I agree with Bullboxers...its all a matter of personal preference...some things work better with some dogs than others...
I have heard nothing but good things from Boxer owners who use no-pull harnesses....Most boxer people I talk to swear they are the only thing that works with their out-of-control pullers (lol...why is it that Boxers seem to think they were meant to be sled dogs??? :wink: )
Right now I am using a Gentle Leader with Loki(and its working wonderfully),but I would have no qualms about trying a harness if I needed to switch. I had the same problem with check/choke chains as Bullboxers did.....it just didn't seem to matter to Loki that he was choking himself silly.....he just kept right on dragging me. I'm not saying that I think check chains are bad or don't work....they just aren't the right training aid for me....maybe once he walks without pulling I'll switch to a check chain. Anyways Loki is doing much better...he only pulls now if he sees another dog that he wants to play with (and we're working on that).I can even walk him without using the gentle leader the entire time now...like Bullboxers ,I just attach the leash to his regular collar when he's walking calmly, and switch back to the GL if he starts to get out of hand.
As for pinch/prong collars, I have heard many good things about them as well and would try one IF I had a trainer teach me to use it properly.

[Smooshie]

[quote name='hazelhover']Just to let you know...
I let my husband train her, I have no idea what he did (and I was right there) but all we used was one of those dogy harnesses (not the leader) and he would pull the leash and tell her heal, when she responded he would praise her... I didn't see alot of it because I was chasing the kids around the park at the time, but now you say heal and she does so! Still working on heal with distractions like other dogs, but it's nice to walk her and not be walked by her. BTW he did not yank her around or yell at her... I guess he did Koko our last dog as well and she almost never needed a leash as "heal" would bring her to walk by your side... maybe he's a dog whisperer :o[/quote]


LOL, hazelhover.....maybe I should send MY dog to him too.....awwww, but you're way over on the other side of the country.....hmmmm, maybe if you just put him on the PHONE with my dog,he could work his magic :wink:

NOW, if I could just find a PARROT whisperer........<wishful thinking...lol)>

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a friend who "talked" to birds... she was awsome... as for my husband and our location... well not long ago we considered florida... but it's hot there and I was told breathing was like drinking water. And don't get me started on hurricans.... I have a hard enough time with earthquakes!!!!!!! :o
But I wouldn't mind visiting though... there's a sanctuary down there that has an aviary that is a jungle with a glass dome over it with about 30 or so macaws!!! And all of them are flying free, now wouldn't that be something to see?
What's up with your bird?

[Guest Anonymous]

Did anyone find my tips on heeling helpful?

[Smooshie]

Hazel,

Oh! you must mean the Parrot Jungle in Miami....yeah I hear its great....I haven't been there yet but I plan to check it out sometime.....Busch Gardens in Tampa has a beautiful parrot exhibit as well.
There's nothing wrong with my Macaw.....its the KIDS around here that make me crazy!!! We converted our Lanai into a playroom for our bird......her California Cage is out there....and her favorite playstand,plus a swing and a couple of coiled Booda ropes hanging from the ceiling for her to swing on.....she LOVES it out there..its completely screened in,and I hung roll down blinds so that she can have quiet time when she needs it..plus it has plenty of bird safe plants and palms to give her a "jungle" atmosphere" lol...and we can keep an eye on each other thru the sliding patio door. the problem is that every time I turn my back the neighborhood kids are at the screen door messing with her (I've caught them yelling at her and waving sticks at her....grrr)....she's always been a little leery of kids, but NOW she's to the point that she starts SHREIKING at the top of her lungs every time she SEES a child (and there are a TON of children around here)...its gotten to where she has to spend most of her time in the house with me...OR I have to sit out in the lanai with her to keep her quiet. I've warned the kids to stay away from her, but kids are kids and they just keep coming back <sigh>
She used to have no problem spending time by herself, and would entertain herself for hours happily, now she seems to be developing separation anxiety, and I'm sure its due to the kids stressing her out when she's outside. And the dog doesn't deter them, because I don't let him out in the lanai with the bird alone....so he just barks at them thru the door,and now they've started teasing HIM as well......oh well, at least he alerts me that they're out there so I can chase them off .....parents around here have never heard of supervision, I guess......
Sorry for rambling...I just had to vent :wink:

[Smooshie]

[quote name='sashagirl']Hazel- You are absolutely right about breathing being like drinking. And when you are walking down the street, it feels as if you could swim right through the air... And it is so hot here it is unbelievable...

Smooshie- Where in Florida are you located? I live in Altamonte Springs, which is about 10 minutes out of Orlando..[/quote]

Sasha....I'm in Seminole.....just outside of St. Pete :D

[Smooshie]

[quote name='sashagirl']Hey I will be down your way later on today... I am heading down to Palm Harbor tonight after work. And we are going to a barbeque in Tarpon Springs tomorrow.[/quote]

Ooops, I missed this post......Are you bringing your dogs with you to Tarpon Springs tomorrow??...It seems to me there's a dog beach out that way (honeymoon island) I THINK its still being used as a dog park anyway....check it out if you get a chance....your dogs might enjoy the beach :D