Guest Anonymous Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 Hello out there! Can any one tell me how to teach a dog to heel? Our last one came "pretrained" and would heel even without a leash (good dog!). Hazel however will just about choke herself everytime she sees a kid or another dog! She's only 3 months, is this too early to leash train? I would like to train her before she reaches her estimated 40 or so lbs. thanks for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon_C Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 [quote name='hazelhover']Hello out there! Can any one tell me how to teach a dog to heel? Our last one came "pretrained" and would heel even without a leash (good dog!). Hazel however will just about choke herself everytime she sees a kid or another dog! She's only 3 months, is this too early to leash train? I would like to train her before she reaches her estimated 40 or so lbs. thanks for the help[/quote] Hi there. Training your puppy to walk to Heel is fairly simple once the Sit-Stay exercises have been accomplished. Begin by having your pup sit on your left-hand side on her lead, and after getting the pups attention by calling her name, give command "Heel" and walk briskly forward, always with your left foot first. Walk as fast as you can, keeping her close to your left side with her shoulders more or less level with your left knee; this way she will not be able to cross over in front of you. Go forward, making right turns, left turns and about turns, all the time praising and encouraging her. If she makes a mistake, say "NO" and show her what you want her to do. Most areas have classes for Obedience or Ring Training and either of these are suitable for socialising puppies with dogs of all ages and types, and will also teach her to accept being handled by different people. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 Our dog learned to heel a similar way. Starting with a Sit on you left side, hold a treat in your left hand down at your left side. Give the command to heel, then walk forward starting with your left foot (this tells the dog "come with me"). Your dog will be very interested in the treat, possibly jumping a bit. This is OK in the beginning, because you are teaching her where she should be when she heels. When you stop, make your dog sit again. Give her the treat and praise, praise praise the whole time! Start with short segements, and as your dog gets better, take the treat out of your hand and keep in in your pocket while making your "heel segments" longer. Sitting when you stop walking will become part of the heel command, and you will not have to ask her to do so. This is great when you don't want her to lunge or go near something! Be sure to gradually increase distractions while training the heel command, as with most other commands. We found taking Cadie to the park or down the road to work well outside of obedience classes. Also, try going in circles or weaving in and out of trees, trash cans, cones, etc to engrain the command in her head. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 [quote name='hazelhover']Hello out there! Can any one tell me how to teach a dog to heel? Our last one came "pretrained" and would heel even without a leash (good dog!). Hazel however will just about choke herself everytime she sees a kid or another dog! She's only 3 months, is this too early to leash train? I would like to train her before she reaches her estimated 40 or so lbs. thanks for the help[/quote] Actually she should already be leash trained but if you have her on a choke collar get rid of it! they have been proven to be bad for dog's necks. I suggest a trip to [url]www.clickertraining.com[/url] for more human solutions to train your pup. Jerking a dog around by the neck is no longer the training method of choice for responsible owners and trainers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 First of all I don't think I could ever even think of using a choke on my girl... I have seen too many things, horrible things, about those.... Second thank you for all of your advice, I really appreciate all the help I can get! I will be enrolling her in an obedience class as soon as she is done with her shots.... I am not sure how much they teach but I hope healing is one of them!!! She's a smart dog, by 10 weeks she had all the basics down including sit/stay, (She will now, at three months stay there even if I leave the room for a whole minuet!) and even did a few simple tricks like sit up and rollover, and shake paws/hands. But this heel thing... well the only dogs I ever got to train were never leash trained. I am good at the tricks but not at the leash! Again thank you for all your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='hazelhover']Hello out there! Can any one tell me how to teach a dog to heel? Our last one came "pretrained" and would heel even without a leash (good dog!). Hazel however will just about choke herself everytime she sees a kid or another dog! She's only 3 months, is this too early to leash train? I would like to train her before she reaches her estimated 40 or so lbs. thanks for the help[/quote] Actually she should already be leash trained but if you have her on a choke collar get rid of it! they have been proven to be bad for dog's necks. I suggest a trip to [url]www.clickertraining.com[/url] for more human solutions to train your pup. Jerking a dog around by the neck is no longer the training method of choice for responsible owners and trainers.[/quote] acctually they are not bad for the dog unless you put in on right and if you take it off as soon as you get done. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 [quote name='beagle88'][quote name='Anonymous']Actually she should already be leash trained but if you have her on a choke collar get rid of it! they have been proven to be bad for dog's necks. I suggest a trip to [url]www.clickertraining.com[/url] for more human solutions to train your pup. Jerking a dog around by the neck is no longer the training method of choice for responsible owners and trainers.[/quote] acctually they are not bad for the dog unless you put in on right and if you take it off as soon as you get done. :wink:[/quote] Agreed with Beagle. I have found the "check" chain (the word choke chain is incorrect, as they are not designed to 'choke' the dog, as it is the noise it makes that the dog responds to, not the 'choking') to be the best form of training, together with lots and lots of praise. My dog Tessa learnt this way, as did my Basenji/Foxie cross, my sisters poodle/chihuahua cross and my Boxer. I've never had, or heard of any problems resulting from using a check chain, unless you call a well behaved obedient dog a problem!!! A dog is more likely to develop problems from pulling on a collar than from healing nicely on a check chain! I'm all for check chains, they are a wonderful invention, the only time problems arise is when people don't know how to use them properly. Their like Pit Bulls of the collar world, treat them right and you'll be forever grateful, but if you are irrisponsible thats when problems could arise and the humble 'check chain' gets a bad name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 What about a "haltie". I have heard good things about these. I hesitate to use a check chain as I had a friend who lost a dog to one of these things..... I am just really leary... I really want her to be able to go to parks with us and when we go on bike rides.... I just want a good dog! I don't know if I want a "haltie" as I am not sure I like the look... but I am not real good at figuring out the check and how to put it on properly....... sigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 Depending on the philosophy of your trainer, you can get help and instruction on different forms of corrective collars including what some are calling the check chain. We use a pincher collar. This collar looks awful, but it pinches her a bit in a correction, instead of possibly choking her. Some of our problem with the "choke/check" chain was depending on our position in relation to Cadie, it didn't release as well as we would've liked. Again, she has learned to respond to the sound a bit as well (but still has some work to go! Training never ends! :) ). The trick about corrective collars is to [b]only[/b] use them in training, not for playing in the yard or when the pooch is alone. This minimizes the risk for potentially deadly accidents. Cadie rarely has any collar on when she is in the house at all, which keeps her coat even too. Whatever you decide, you have to be comfortable with it, so you can use it effectively when training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted June 9, 2002 Share Posted June 9, 2002 Oh yes, definatly the halti is excellent for getting dogs to walk nicely beside you. I used to have one for Tessa before it turned to cinders in a house fire and it did wonders. They may be great for getting dogs to heal, but they aren't that good for 'training' a dog. With a check chain, once a dog is trained to heal on command it will, even when not on a check chain. Halties aren't so good for the training side of things, they are just good to stop a dog from pulling. As for the look, any educated dog lover would know what it is anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that. Just go with what you feel comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Neither choke collars nor pinch collars nor 'check chains' are needed tools in dog training - they are items which should be thrown out not put on a dog! There are SO MANY better ways to train than hurting your dog (and yes the chokes and the pinch collars do hurt them which is why they work) Sure those collars work, pain training often does, but why do that if you don't have to? I rarely even use a leash to train a dog anymore - the leash goes on only after the dog knows the exercise! Its so much more fun to train this way for your dog and for you and the relationship between dog and owner is also better. I used to use chokes and even pinches I've use chain and nylon slips both but if you really need 'control' or a 'signal' go with a gentle leader head halter ([url]www.gentleleader.com[/url] for info) or a martingale style collar (similar to the pinch in being a limited slip collar but no barbs at all) or better yet a clicker ([url]www.clickertraining.com[/url] for info) and positive motivation. You won't believe the difference in the dog when you actually teach it instead of forcing it to do what you want! Based on years of education in training and using all styles of training for dogs in that time I can say that unless you get a kick out of hurting your dog while training it, learning positive motivation techniques and using them with your dog is the way to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous']Neither choke collars nor pinch collars nor 'check chains' are needed tools in dog training - they are items which should be thrown out not put on a dog! There are SO MANY better ways to train than hurting your dog (and yes the chokes and the pinch collars do hurt them which is why they work) Sure those collars work, pain training often does, but why do that if you don't have to?[/quote] Check Chains do NOT harm the dog. If it were the choking that trains the dog, then why is it that 99% of time the chain is loose and even when it is jerked the dog shows no signs of pain? If it was hurting the dog that taught it, I would need to use alot more than a little tug to teach my dog Tessa, she has a neck like a Bull Terrier and the pain withstanding of a Pit. If you still believe, for some strange reason, that a check chain works by hurting a dog, then what about the half check? That stops when it gets to a certain point, therefore can't hurt the dog. If it wasn't the sound that deterred the dog, then how on earth would this work? Think about it, all evidence shows that it is the sound the dog reacts to, not the pain. Check Chains are perfectly humane if used correctly and by all means, I believe they are the best method of training. As for pincher collars, I have never in my life seen one... but they do sound rather nasty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 one other thing I wanted to say about the haltie... I saw a dog that was being trained with one, she was really calm and great on the leash.... untill she was put on a regular coller... and then all heck broke loose!!! I would like my dog to be good all the time! We have small children that come visit my kids all the time and I want her to heel without the haltie so she doesn't "attack" kids with love! :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 If you put the chocker on right it will not hurt the dog. Some people just totally (almost) yank their dogs neck off. You are suppose to have it lose where it makes a noise that makes them pay attention to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 Head Halters look innocent but are more dangerous than the other ones mentioned(check, choke, etc..). They put most of the pressure at the top of the head to show the dogs where to go, but this is [b]VERY[/b] dangerous. Think of a pole standing up and wave it a little, the bottom(base of the neck) would move very little as this is the strongest point. The top(head) would sway much more and can cause damage to the base(neck). These are used on horses because people are smaller than horses and the halter is used to control the horses head from below. As opposed to people and dogs, a tug on this halter would be upwards and most likely to the side creating a very violent movement on a relativly quick pull on the leash. This piece of equipment may look like the safes one but in all reality has a greater chance to do the most harm to your friend. By the way, i got most of this info on 'Dog Training for Dummies'. I need all the help i can get :roll: :lol: ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 [quote name='Onyx44']Head Halters look innocent but are more dangerous than the other ones mentioned(check, choke, etc..). They put most of the pressure at the top of the head to show the dogs where to go, but this is [b]VERY[/b] dangerous. Think of a pole standing up and wave it a little, the bottom(base of the neck) would move very little as this is the strongest point. The top(head) would sway much more and can cause damage to the base(neck). These are used on horses because people are smaller than horses and the halter is used to control the horses head from below. As opposed to people and dogs, a tug on this halter would be upwards and most likely to the side creating a very violent movement on a relativly quick pull on the leash. This piece of equipment may look like the safes one but in all reality has a greater chance to do the most harm to your friend. By the way, i got most of this info on 'Dog Training for Dummies'. I need all the help i can get :roll: :lol: ......[/quote] Well if you want advice from Dummies apparently that is the site to go to :lol: if that is what they really said about the head halter. Head halters are extremely safe much safer than choke collars are for sure. Choke collars are proven to cause dogs neck problems later in life. SOmething like 80% of the dogs trained on a choke end up with neck problems as senior citizens in comparison to dogs trained on other collars. Head Halters do not put pressure on the top of the neck they gently turn the dogs face. You are not supposed to 'tug' on the head halter and the gentle leader (the best one IMO and one advocated by ALL the top behaviorists) comes with complete instructions on proper use. I suggest anyone interested in a humane training tool take a look at [url]www.gentleleader.com[/url] for real information on it. Like any training tool the head halter may end up being a constant use item. Not many people graduate their dogs off of the choke or pinch collars like they are supposed to either. Thats not a problem with the tool its a problem with the trainer! Lots of folks settle for 'under pain control' vs 'trained'. I prefer trained dogs myself. Personally I train on a flat collar and mostly train without a leash being used at all! The leash goes on after the dog learns the exercise. No need for chokes or pinches if you are training a dog particularly one you get as a pup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 [quote name='Aroura']Oh yes, definatly the halti is excellent for getting dogs to walk nicely beside you. I used to have one for Tessa before it turned to cinders in a house fire and it did wonders. They may be great for getting dogs to heal, but they aren't that good for 'training' a dog. With a check chain, once a dog is trained to heal on command it will, even when not on a check chain. Halties aren't so good for the training side of things, they are just good to stop a dog from pulling. As for the look, any educated dog lover would know what it is anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that. Just go with what you feel comfortable with.[/quote] Sorry you are quite incorrect about what head halters are used for. ALL the top behaviorists (and indeed they were invented by top behaviorists because of the cruelty of choke and pinch collars and the negative health and training results from using these cruel collars) use head halters for dogs that need more control than a flat collar. Another commonly used collar is the martingale sometimes called a limited slip or greyhound collar which allows you to signal without hurting the dog's neck. I see plenty of dogs being trained using head halters and all do quite well and graduate off of them once they learn the desired behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous']Sorry you are quite incorrect about what head halters are used for. I see plenty of dogs being trained using head halters and all do quite well and graduate off of them once they learn the desired behavior.[/quote] Personally, I have never seen a dog properly trained using a halti. I'm not saying that they do not work, but I do admit in all the cases I have seen with haltis it was the trainer that got it wrong, and it had nothing to do with the halti. But I am still a religious check chain user, as from everything I have ever seen, used correctly they are the most effective and most humane training tool on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 [quote name='Aroura'][quote name='Anonymous']Sorry you are quite incorrect about what head halters are used for. I see plenty of dogs being trained using head halters and all do quite well and graduate off of them once they learn the desired behavior.[/quote] Personally, I have never seen a dog properly trained using a halti. I'm not saying that they do not work, but I do admit in all the cases I have seen with haltis it was the trainer that got it wrong, and it had nothing to do with the halti. But I am still a religious check chain user, as from everything I have ever seen, used correctly they are the most effective and most humane training tool on the market.[/quote] Apparently you don't read the studies on the subject or pay any attention to behaviorists who work with dogs for a living. I think using a tool that causes damage to neck vertebrae as the choke collar is designed to do is cruel. Its completely unneccessary as a training tool and a flat collar is perfect for most training particularly with pups. If you know how to motivate dogs a lead is not needed to train with either. Maybe someday you will outgrow the force is best training methods - I assure you that both you and your dogs will have lots more fun together once you do. Did you even look at either of the websites for clickers or the gentle leader? Do you even understand the concepts of positive motivation vs punishment training? Again I think if you did the dogs and you would be having a lot more fun together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous']Apparently you don't read the studies on the subject or pay any attention to behaviorists who work with dogs for a living. I think using a tool that causes damage to neck vertebrae as the choke collar is designed to do is cruel. Its completely unneccessary as a training tool and a flat collar is perfect for most training particularly with pups. If you know how to motivate dogs a lead is not needed to train with either. Maybe someday you will outgrow the force is best training methods - I assure you that both you and your dogs will have lots more fun together once you do. Did you even look at either of the websites for clickers or the gentle leader? Do you even understand the concepts of positive motivation vs punishment training? Again I think if you did the dogs and you would be having a lot more fun together.[/quote] I'm sorry that I should have to point this out [i]again[/i] but I never said there was anything [u]wrong[/u] with using a halti or a clicker. I think they are great, its just in my experience, as well as everyone I know, including the various obedience trainers who have been teaching obedience their whole lives, that the check chain is the [i]best[/i] way to train a dog. It is not [b]punishing[/b] the dog, the best way to use them is indeed to use positive training, but to correct them when they make a mistake, not by [i]hurting[/i] the dog, but by [i]subjecting it to an unpleasant sound[/i]. There is a [b]very big difference!!![/b] Ever heard of a half check??? You never answered me when I brought it up before. In your oppinion, do half checks, that do not even exert any pressure on the dogs trackea, cause any pain or damage to a dogs neck? If not, then how do they work??? Please explain this to me as I am very curious to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 I have to agree with Aroura on this one. She took the words right out of my mouth. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 Clicker training is definitely the "In" thing now. But choker collars worked great for years. I have never heard of a dog's neck being injuried not even with spike collars. Most owners never knew how to properly use the choker collar and merely pulled upwards which is ineffective. When used properly, the pull is horizontal you get the dog's attention without hurting it. You are not really "choking" the dog. If you have an average mellow dog, clicker training will be fine. If you have a bigger breed especially with a behavorial problem, I would use the choker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I'm really finding this discussion interesting.... I currently use a pincher collar, and yes, it is a form of negative reinforcement, I am willing to openly admit that. It is also unfortunate that many people don't try to graduate their dogs from many different training methods. I have been looking into clicker training, and plan to give it a try after I get married and go on my honeymoon (since Cadie will be staying with other people). I think it sounds fun and will be challenging and interesting to my dog (we've been lookng for some new activity to try). Dogs are like children, can anyone be raised without some negtive reinforcement (I know I wasn't)? When used properly, both positive and negative reinforcement are very useful tools. My question is, if training collars commonly referred to as choke chains and pincher or spike collars are so horrible, why do so many obedience class instructors still teach their use and suggest them as training tools? Or is the real problem with these collars that many people don't know how to use them correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 [quote="Aroura I'm sorry that I should have to point this out [i]again[/i] but I never said there was anything [u]wrong[/u] with using a halti or a clicker. I think they are great, its just in my experience, as well as everyone I know, including the various obedience trainers who have been teaching obedience their whole lives, that the check chain is the [i]best[/i] way to train a dog. It is not [b]punishing[/b] the dog, the best way to use them is indeed to use positive training, but to correct them when they make a mistake, not by [i]hurting[/i] the dog, but by [i]subjecting it to an unpleasant sound[/i]. There is a [b]very big difference!!![/b] Ever heard of a half check??? You never answered me when I brought it up before. In your oppinion, do half checks, that do not even exert any pressure on the dogs trackea, cause any pain or damage to a dogs neck? If not, then how do they work??? Please explain this to me as I am very curious to know.[/quote] Sorry I still completely disagree with you on this - a choke collar is not a humane tool to use in training and is totally unneeded for puppy training. If by check collar you mean a chain version of the martingale or greyhound or limited slip collar I still would not use it as the chain is not safe on dog's necks as it is too narrow - the other collars I mention are wide bands much safer on a dog's neck. Seriously though I advocate the flat collar for training and not even a leash most of the time. I know many trainers who have 'been training all their lives' who never get beyond the way they were taught years ago to train using pain to get their points across to the dogs but thankfully I know LOTS more who kept on learning and know now there are lots of better ways to train than jerking dogs around! It really is fun and for an out of control dog new to training the gentle leader (you do keep saying halti when I say gentle leader and they are not the same tool) can help an owner get control while learning how to train their dog. With pups positive motivation from the first makes something alike a limited slip collar or a gentle leader unneeded. I've trained a variety of dogs with positive techniques as well as, in the past, with methods similar to many advocated here and I'll take the positive stuff any day for a happier dog and owner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 [quote]why do so many obedience class instructors still teach their use and suggest them as training tools? Or is the real problem with these collars that many people don't know how to use them correctly?[/quote] Trainers still use choker collars because they are an excellent training tool and sometimes the only tool that is effective. Unfortunately, like you said many people do not know how to properly use them. I trained dogs for years for behavior modification...but the truth was I really trained their owners. A dog could be totally out of control with its owner and perfectly behaved with me. This is a commonplace occurence with all trainers. There are to many irresponsible dog owners today who do not devote the time to train their dogs and to be trained themselves. The proper use of a choker is not cruel...if you are hanging your dog then you are not properly pulling. There must be a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. Even a child must learn that "no" means "no". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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