Castration of my Friends my Dogs NEVER!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

I have 2 pits 7 weeks old and I phoned a Vet about getting their shots, who went on and on about having my Friends neutered! I tried interupting the Vet several times to say I wasn't interested in that. Of course she brought up the cancer issue, which I already know about. Oh she also said the dogs would urinate less. What's that crap, who cares how much your dog Pees. I also know about the other so called things to do with this procedure like less aggression etc.

I said I don't believe in that because I have never heard of anyone's Dog having cancer as a direct result of not being castrated. Infact I have asked several people at work and they have never heard of it either.

Besides these Vets make it sound like there is some sort of epidemic of cancer when their testes are not removed.

Personally I think it is just a BIG MONEY GRAB!

What do you have to say about neutering?

_________________
What ya goin to do when my 2 Pitbulls don't run wild on you!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-19 13:35 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-19 13:36 ]</font>

[Horsefeathers!]

I guess I straddle the fence on it. I am not one who believes that everything walking should be spayed/neutered, BUT I feel that far too many people are not responsible enough with intact pets. If I only had one or two dogs, same sex AND could guarantee that I could secure them in such a way that no other dog could dig/chew/fight their way to them to breed, I probably wouldn't bother. It seems females have a higher risk of problems from being intact and not bred than males... ok, well, in MY experience, at least. Two of my females had problems with pyometra (sp?) and I had no choice but to spay them, anyway. However, I have eight dogs living in my household plus lots of neighborhood loose roaming dogs. All of mine are spayed and neutered. My opinion (since you asked)? It all depends on how diligent a person is. If you can keep them from roaming loose, fighting to get to females and breeding, then you are probably responsible enough to handle intact dogs if that's what you choose.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Horsefeathers! on 2002-05-19 13:55 ]</font>

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree with you. It's about being a responsible dog owner. As one I would never let my dogs off their leash, except for maybe a dog park. Even there I would be diligent to keep a watch over them.

It's all about taking good care of your best friends. After all Dogs are like children who never grow up. They are your children always.

_________________
What ya goin to do when my 2 Pitbulls don't run wild on you!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-19 15:52 ]</font>

[Guest Anonymous]

I can't beleive I'm running into this mentality again...first of all, dogs cannot be "friends" in the way humans can be. Would you ever make your human friend wear a rabies tag and Id tag and a collar that you choose? Would you ever restrain your friend from leaving your property, would you ever have your friend to learn to sit and lay down on command just so you could take your friend out in public? Dogs and humans are not the same species and cannot be treated as such. Also, my pound puppy siberian husky DID have testicular cancer, when he left the pound we signed an agreement to have him nuetered. he looked very healthy until the vet opened him up and found out he had cancer--he had to be cut and shaved in several places and it cost me five hundred dollars. He might have died quietly with no clue as to the cause if he had not gone in to be nuetered. Also, before you think that your dogs will always be friends and never will breed unheeded with a female or fight over her, think again. Two of my dogs grew up together and even insisted on going into the back room at the vet's together. they get anxious when one is gone. they share toys and food bowls. they are a spayed female and an unnuetered male. when another female of mine went into heat, the male bit the female straight in the face for walking toward the female in heat--i don't think he realized it was her, but the point is that when a female is in heat, territoriality and aggression can get out of control. I have had males following a running-loose female in heat by and into my yard--four or five HUGE dogs laying around my yard, and my male escaped his enclosure. I was out there barefoot pulling a strange dog off of MY dog, and all I knew about the strange dog is that he had a rabies tag, at least. think twice before machismo makes a decision--logic should be the deciding factor.

[Horsefeathers!]

>>>Would you ever make your human friend wear a rabies tag and Id tag and a collar...<<<

The law here has never required the licensing and vaccinating of human friends, but if they did, my human friends would be the first ones to get a nifty new collars and tags. :smile:

Sorry... couldn't resist.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am 44 and of course dogs cannnot be friends like humans. it's just a nice way of talking about them. If you or anyone doesn't understand that, then you shouldn't own a dog.

As far as comparing medical attention requred for humans and dogs. Well like I said before "Dogs are like having children that never grow up." When you have children do you give your children vacinations etc. Do you protect your children from running out the door. Do you teach your children words that give them direction.

Of course there is a huge difference between the 2 species. To infer that I don't know this is insane. If you can't treat your dogs with Love, direction and medical care when required then a person shouldn't own one.

It's just that we as humans cannot help but place human qualities on our dogs. End of story.

_________________
What ya goin to do when my 2 Pitbulls don't run wild on you!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-20 06:36 ]</font>

[sixjollydogs]

I think is is wonderful that you consider your dogs your friends and want to do what is best for them.

I do believe;however, that what is best is to have them neutered. I am not trying to be smart about this...but asking a couple of friends at work really does not balance out the research that DOES show that unneutered/unspayed animals do have a higher incidence of:(got to the aspca for a lot of good data on this)

1. testicular cancer
2. pyrometra in females
3. more prone to wander
4. getting out and creating more pups

Perhaps we could answer this best if you would outline why you do not want your dogs neutered/spayed?

[Guest Anonymous]

Well the statistics don't lie and if you want to have your pups around the longest possible amount of time then neutering would be the way to go simple truth is neutered and spayed dogs tend to live longer than intact dogs.
I find it interesting that you think a medical professional would have less information than the people you chat with at work.
I hope you didn't get your two pups from the same litter as that makes the likelihood of future fighting between them as they mature much higher than average.
Of course if it happens you have two pitbulls you intend to leave intact to increase your own level of testosterone then I suggest you find a vet who doesn't care if you are a responsible owner or not.


[quote]
On 2002-05-19 13:33, hollywood_hulkhogan wrote:
I have 2 pits 7 weeks old and I phoned a Vet about getting their shots, who went on and on about having my Friends neutered! I tried interupting the Vet several times to say I wasn't interested in that. Of course she brought up the cancer issue, which I already know about. Oh she also said the dogs would urinate less. What's that crap, who cares how much your dog Pees. I also know about the other so called things to do with this procedure like less aggression etc.

I said I don't believe in that because I have never heard of anyone's Dog having cancer as a direct result of not being castrated. Infact I have asked several people at work and they have never heard of it either.

Besides these Vets make it sound like there is some sort of epidemic of cancer when their testes are not removed.

Personally I think it is just a BIG MONEY GRAB!

What do you have to say about neutering?

_________________
What ya goin to do when my 2 Pitbulls don't run wild on you!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-19 13:35 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-19 13:36 ]</font>
[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

As far as my pits fighting later, I don't think they will fight. They are from the same litter, therefore the top dog is already decided. Which ever male is born first is the top dog. I had pit and a rotti before and everyone warned me, but they decided without a fight that the rotti was top dog. Besides weather dogs fight or not is a matter of ownership responsibility and training.

As far as neutering goes. Do most breeders dogs or as a matter of fact show dogs who are breeding develope cancer because being intact.

Besides be honest and tell me how many dogs do you know of personally that developed cancer because of being intact?

_________________
What ya goin to do when my 2 Pitbulls don't run wild on you!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-20 11:38 ]</font>

[sixjollydogs]

Hulk

Admitedly my prejudice towards neutering and spaying is well-estblished....but I do believe there is a sound reason for neutering.

Would you please explain why you do not want to get your dog neutered...other than the fact that you think vets are just doing it for the money. (also...think about it...if your dog were sick or hurt...who are you going to let treat it...the vet or "a few friends at the office")

[Guest Anonymous]

being born first means jack squat as to who the top dog is. while it does help if the dogs grow up together, just being born first is hardly a basis for deciding alpha status.

[Guest Anonymous]

I would like to know the bloodlines of your dogs and who they are registered with??

[Aroura]

I think that it is best to nueter your dogs, not only because of whats already been said, but think of it this way... if your dogs did manage to get out and find a nice little bitch on heat the owners of this bitch may be irrisponsible. To cut a long story short, chances are the pups would go to bad homes with bad owners and what would you have? Possibley another "pit" attack, just to give the breed an even worse name, even though the pups would only be half breds. Just another thing to consider before making the decision to get them done or not.
Personally, I have all my pets desexed exept for my Boxer, but thats because she comes from good bloodlines and I plan to breed her when she's old enough.
Unless you plan to stud your dogs out its better to get them nuetered sooner rather than later.

[Guest Anonymous]

another possibility...the males escaping or running free, breeding with a much smaller or not-quite-ready female, and ripping up her insides.

[Guest Anonymous]

Could you guys answer one question I asked earlier please?

How many dogs do you know personally that got cancer as a direct result of their testes being still intact?

As far as my dogs getting off their lease or runing out of the house. That will never happen. I had a Rotti and a Pit for over 5 years before and never once did they get off their lease or run out of the house. It's about being totally responsible.

Please resond to my ? above, thanks.

[Guest Anonymous]

Could you guys answer one question I asked earlier please?

How many dogs do you know personally that got cancer as a direct result of their testes being still intact?

As far as my dogs getting off their lease or runing out of the house. That will never happen. I had a Rotti and a Pit for over 5 years before and never once did they get off their lease or run out of the house. It's about being totally responsible.

Please resond to my ? above, thanks.

[Guest Anonymous]

As a breeder of gamebred full-blooded APBTs I dont do any spaying or neutering. So I cant answer your question concerning cancer. Although Ive never had a propblem with it except for one bitch I had and she was 13 years old. But I do believe if you arent going to breed two dogs with great bloodlines that compliment each other, then you shouldnt breed. Some bloodlines dont go well with others. What are your dogs bloodlines? Are they registered?

[Guest Anonymous]

<sigh> how about some education here - the MOST common problem with dogs in the same home fighting come because the dogs in question were obtained from the same litter.
Similar genetics, same age, likely same size etc can produce equal dominance levels which means fighting as they mature. Also with the litter bond in place the bond to you will be lessened by some amount which means you have less control over the pups.
Go read some behaviorist information from the people who treat the dogs in these types of situations.
If you love your pets its not a matter of 'most' its a matter of not wanting your pet to die younger than it needs to because you have some personal issue with neutering a pet.
Breeders know the risks (or should) of losing dogs younger than they might because they leave dogs intact. Good breeders spay and neuter once the breeding or show life is over for the dog because its safer and healthier for the dog.
Cheap people complain about the cost of neutering and then put the dog down when a serious illness or injury occurs because the dog was left intact and treating that is also too expensive for them.
Some men refuse to neuter their pets because of their own problems on the subject of sexuality.
I wish you twice yearly sessions of non stop screaming and howling for three weeks at a time when your neighbor's dog is in season and your intact males sniff that fact out <lol>


[quote]
On 2002-05-20 11:37, hollywood_hulkhogan wrote:
As far as my pits fighting later, I don't think they will fight. They are from the same litter, therefore the top dog is already decided. Which ever male is born first is the top dog. I had pit and a rotti before and everyone warned me, but they decided without a fight that the rotti was top dog. Besides weather dogs fight or not is a matter of ownership responsibility and training.

As far as neutering goes. Do most breeders dogs or as a matter of fact show dogs who are breeding develope cancer because being intact.

Besides be honest and tell me how many dogs do you know of personally that developed cancer because of being intact?

_________________
What ya goin to do when my 2 Pitbulls don't run wild on you!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollywood_hulkhogan on 2002-05-20 11:38 ]</font>
[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

First I am not going to be breeding my Pits and neutering my dogs just because they are not going to be breeding makes no sense since i will be just as responsible as I was before with my dogs.

Second I understand all the benefits to neutering. No unexpecting breeding, no testical cancer, less pissing. a longer life, less chances of fighting etc.

I choose not to have them neutered as personal thing. I simply just don't believe everything I read or hear. I am not a follower or invovled in the "Herd Effect."

I make my own decisions based on what i beleieve to be reality, Just as you all do.

I agree that we do disagree and leave it at that, except for one question again, which very few of you answered.

"HOW MANY DOGS DO YOU KNOW PERSONALLY WHO GOT CANCER AS A DIRECT RESULT FROM HAVING THEIR TESTES STILL INTACT?"

OR YES AND GIVE ME SOME IMPERICLE EVIDENCE THAT INTACT TESTES RESULT IN DOG FIGHTS AMONG SIBLING PUPPIES,THEN I'LL BELIEVE.

OH YES AND IS IT THE TESTES THAT ARE IRRESPONSIBLE OR THE OWNER WHEN IT COMES TO ANOTHER DOG BEING PREGNANT BY THEIR DOG?

[sixjollydogs]

Hulk

I know you want to do what is best for your dog...but think about it....who really has the best knowledge about what is best for your dog? Vets spend a lot of time is school and I would trust their judgement...if you feel you can't...would find another vet.

As to the stats....here is what I could find. It is adapted from an article written by Dr.Jennifer Kelsey,M.D. She is a doctor at Johns Hopkins. She lost her dog to cancer and wrote this article:

Here is what she wrote( please note that the studies she used are old...from the '60...evidently no newer ones:

1. about 4 dogs in every thousand will get cancer

2. there are three types of canine cancer versus one in humans

3. dogs with undescended testes have a much higher rate as are dogs with hernias

4.Purebred dogs ae twice as likely to get breat cancer The greatest protection from spaying is if the bitch is spayed before her first heat.

5.Dogs living in homes with very high outdoor currents nearby were nearly seven times more likely to develop lymphomas

6. Bone tumors occur most often in large breeds with NEUTERED dogs and bitches having TWICE THE RISK. One study indicated that neutered/spayed had a higher risk of bladder cancers.

You can read the study by going to wwwravenwooddals.tripod.com/cancer


Some more interesting data:

Dogs in one study who had flea tick dips were 27 times more likely to have bladder cancer. (with changes in formulations, this may no longer be true

2. The second most common cancers in dogs is testicular cancer at 16%

[Horsefeathers!]

Ok, I'll answer the question as was asked. How many dogs I've known, personally, that died with testicular cancer... the answer is none. I don't know of a single one, personally. However, I don't know anyone, personally, who ever died while running with scissors, playing Russian Roulette, choking on a hotdog, or being eaten by an alligator, but it could happen... *wink* :smile:

Really, I'm just being silly and not trying to influence your decision one way or another. I just don't think it's really a fair question or a good way to base your decision to ask who knows of a dog, personally, that died with such.

[Peng1zrule]

My 'pound puppy,' only five years old, was unnuetered and had cancer. So PERSONALLY, I have known a dog that had cancer from being intact. He is not a breed known for cancer. And my groomer has seen dozens of dogs with health and behavior problems from it.

[sixjollydogs]

Their is an epidemic sweeping the US that results in death for millions of cats and dogs every year. It is not cancer....it is irresponsible and uncaring folks that allow their animals to breed. Hulk...I am not saying you are one of these folks...but dogs can and do get out. You sound like a very caring person so please reconsider not having your dog neutered! Please consider the following which I obtained from a vet who works with the largest no-kill shelter in the US"

Number of cats and dogs entering shelters each year:
8–10 million (HSUS estimate)

Number of cats and dogs euthanized by shelters each year:
4–5 million (HSUS estimate)

Number of cats and dogs adopted from shelters each year:
3–5 million (HSUS estimate)

Number of cats and dogs reclaimed by owners from shelters each year:
Between 600,000 and 750,000—15–30% of dogs and 2–5% of cats entering shelters (HSUS estimate)

Number of animal shelters in the United States:
Between 4,000 and 6,000 (HSUS estimate)

Percentage of dogs in shelters who are purebred:
25% (HSUS estimate)

Average number of litters a fertile cat can produce in one year: 3

Average number of kittens in a feline litter: 4–6

In seven years, one female cat and her offspring can theoretically produce 420,000 cats.

Average number of litters a fertile dog can produce in one year: 2

Average number of puppies in a canine litter: 6–10

In six years, one female dog and her offspring can theoretically produce 67,000 dogs.

Maybe if these folks actually spent a day on the killing floor they'd understand just WHAT they are contributing to!


Margaret Muns DVM
Staff Veterinarian



Posted: 5/21/2002 8:05:42 PM | IP: Recorded

[Guest Anonymous]

you want evidence? Try reading The Dog Who Loved Too Much by Nicholas Dodman or any of the many books on behavior problems in dogs.
At least if your dogs are neutered you won't have testosterone assisting in any rivalry situations.
You won't know you have a real problem until your dogs reach maturity. If you are lucky and if you learn which pup is the lead pup, and if you can reaffirm that with the pack you are creating properly and if you do all the seperation exercises and training needed sure you can raise two pups at once - its just not easy and not for the average pet owner.
If you happen to be someone who lives alone, never has anyone else in your home for any reason, and never goes anywhere with your dogs that other people are involved well you might be able to come close to exerting control over what the dogs do while you are there (what they manage to do while you are not there is another story) and keep them from ever getting loose. I happen to live in a more normal home where other people live, come and go and interact with the dogs - this means there is always a chance for someone to make an error - or for two people to make 1/2 an error :smile: and for dogs to get loose when they are not supposed to be.

[quote]
On 2002-05-21 12:05, hollywood_hulkhogan wrote:
snip
OR YES AND GIVE ME SOME IMPERICLE EVIDENCE THAT INTACT TESTES RESULT IN DOG FIGHTS AMONG SIBLING PUPPIES,THEN I'LL BELIEVE.

OH YES AND IS IT THE TESTES THAT ARE IRRESPONSIBLE OR THE OWNER WHEN IT COMES TO ANOTHER DOG BEING PREGNANT BY THEIR DOG?

[/quote]

[Peng1zrule]

sixjollydogs, i appreciated your statistics, and they seemed optimistic statistics, to me. right now, at my local shelter, fifty dogs go in every week (forty cats, on average) I read the paper every week for a month, as it has the weekly turn ins. Out of all the pets turned in over a month, ONE dog was adopted out. just one. and not a single cat. two hundred dogs went in, one came out...it was heartbreaking...and partly because dogs can and do get pregnant through fences.