Hobbit

Poofy -- the Kelpies are registerd with The North American Australian Kelpie Registry, Inc. (NAAKR). The imported ones with The Working Kelpie Council (WKC), Australia. The WKC does not sanction conformation classes, nor does the NAAKR.

Luka --- isn't your dog a Border Collie cross? If so, PLEASE stop using Heartguard on him. Products that contain Ivermetrin can have fatal results on herding bred dogs. The shot contains a chemical from the "ectrin" family and is also having fatal effects on not only herding bred dogs, but also other breeds of dogs. A product that is more safe for herding bred dogs is Milbemycin or "Interceptor".

Thanks, Mouse.

The sire (Rogue's Tuff) of two of my dogs was featured on Animal Planet a while back. It was a segment on Australian Kelpies. Rogue's Tuff belongs to Jim Etling. They both were stars for a little while!

[quote name='RR'][color=indigo]My point is being missed completely. [color=blue][b]And my point is also being missed. [/b][/color] It seems, Hobbit that you are so adamantly against conformation showing that you are overlooking my points and more interested in being argumentative on anything I say instead. [b][color=red]Not against conformation showing, just against it being crammed down my throat. I am not overlooking your points. You are so blinded by "conformation only" that you can't see the other side. [/color][/b] Referring to conformation showing as being based on "looks" and pretty makes it sound like more of a miss America beauty pageant when it should be far from that. [b][color=blue]BUT, this is what it is. It's who know who that places. If you are not a well known handler, your chances are not very good that you will place --- even if you have a top dog.[/color][/b] Sure judges put up "pretty" or "showy" or the dog with the nicest expression ---- but all political aspects aside showing is based on structure & function that allows a dog to do the job it was bred for, NOT the objective to produce dogs that will win in the ring. [color=red][b]That may be the basis, but that is not what is followed. It is political, period. Ask a show person why they breed. Their response is to "produce a champion", not a good hunting dog, a good herding dog, a good tracking dog, ..... but a "show" dog. [/b][/color] I guess your breed doesn't have unscrupulous breeders putting any two dogs of the same breed together regardless of function/structure, otherwise you'd understand my point [color=blue][b]--- no need to be condenscending. EVERY breed has unethical breeders.....the Kelpie breeders are no exception. If their conformation is lacking, they will not last as a herding dog. This is my point that you are missing.[/b][/color] ----- they are the ones who feel showing is unecessary because are more intent on making money instead of spending money on their dogs. THESE are the breeders who, I too, was originally referring to. THEY use the breeders before them to ADVERT Ch lines not Ch. dogs of present. I see it all the time in my area from breeders in my breed and they are ruining the breed. [b][color=red]I agree with you now, as I agreed with you earlier --- when referring to an AKC recognized breed. [/color][/b] Right, you've nothing to apologize for. I understand your dogs aren't recognized, and I don't think you realize you are one of the few who do have enough knowledge in breeding/conformation and for unrecognized breeds that is essential, but most breeders do not have your knowledge therefore need some guidance/education and should put the effort into conformation showing because this is where the learning begins. [color=blue][b]In order to show conformation, the dog must be registered with AKC, right? They must be a recognized breed, right? Australian Kelpies are not a recognized breed. We, as breeders/handlers/herding dog trainers, etc... do not want AKC to recognize the Kelpie as a breed --- that would be the demise of the breed, just like the Border Collie, Australian Shepherd and Australian Cattle Dogs and several other breeds. We want to protect our breed from being exploited and ruined by someone that feels that they have to show and breed for *CONFORMATION*. Breeding only for conformation, while disregarding anything else, (especially natural herding ability) destroys the purpose of the breed. Do you see my point? If you are not a person that uses a herding bred dog for a living, you may not see my point.[/b][/color] Only when they learn to watch the effortless movement of a sound dog going around the ring & feel the body for what is correct will they know. [color=blue][b]You have never seen a dog that works for a living. If their conformation is not correct, they can not continue to work hard everyday.[/b][/color] A dog show is one of the few places that brings together some of the most knowledgeable people to meet and learn from. [b][color=red]Yes, and some of the most snobbish, rudest, hateful people I've ever met, too.[/color][/b] Showing in conformation is NOT about a meaningless title of a past, present, or future dog, and it sure isn't about "looking good" its MORE about the effort and the dedication that a breeder of a recognized breed should put into their dogs. [color=red][b]Effort and dedication by a breeder? Do you mean how much time is spent with the dog? Preparation? Or, the overall breeding program? Again, I'm not arguing with you. You think I am, but I am not. You and many others think --- by your comments --- that if a breed isn't recognized by the AKC, then it's a bastard, not pure, not worth anything. And surely if it can't be shown in conformation classes, then the breed isn't worthy. I guess I HAVE missed your point concerning you statement, [i]"its MORE about the effort and the dedication that a breeder of a recognized breed should put into their dogs"[/i]. So, a person that does not show in conformation classes is not dedicated or puts forth no effort in their dogs? I am really not arguing, just trying to understand why a dog that isn't shown in conformation classes is trash or isn't worthy. I really DO see your point about ethical breeders, people who are just out for the money (yeah, as if there is any money in breeding), people who just throw two dogs together, etc... I don't think you are seeing my point. That's okay, some people never do.[/b][/color].[/quote]

STAPLE his little quacking bill shut so, the enemy can't find him! Or.....just duct tape it shut, being careful not to tape his nostils shut. :lol:

[quote name='RR']Absolutely there is blindness in every possible way. For those who show and for those who dont. I see sick things in the show "world" from people i would expect to love and care for their dogs. I see things from BYBs who dont show that make me wrench. There is a middle ground somewhere.... [color=blue][b]Agree with you on this.[/b][/color] I believe in FORM follows FUNCTION so absolutely feel that in working, sporting or any other group there needs to be a conformation standard followed in order for that dog to do the job bred for. [color=red][b]Conformation is necessary, you are correct. A dog with conformation unsoundness can not continue to work hard and hold up (speaking only of working and herding dogs that do that for a living, not show dogs that show for aliving).[/b][/color] Both are needed and both should be proven. Its not always about the immediate "us" yes we all know our dogs are "correct" but I think it conformation/performance sets an example for future novice breeders who dont "know" correct/incorrect and should participate in conformation. There are too many breeders and too many unwanted dogs so I feel [b][color=red]anyone [/color][/b]breeding should put the effort into showing their dogs that is including in a breeder being the whole package. [b][color=blue]Show dogs that do nothing but conformation, yes. Herding dogs that work for a living should not be shown only in conformation classes. And surely NOT bred for only *LOOKS*. They should be bred for what they were intended.[/color][/b] I make sure I learn something from every show I attend.[/quote] [b][color=blue]I do breed and won't appologize for it. Our breed of dog, Australian Kelpie, is not recognized with AKC and never will be, hopefully. These are the Working Kelpies, not the Bench Kelpies. If their conformation is not correct, they will not last on a working ranch. Ethics, selective breeding, knowledge of genetics goes farther than breeding Champion to Champion. I'm not being rude, just making the point that was made earlier by you.......not every Ch. titled dog should be bred. We also have Australian Cattle Dogs, I refuse and will NOT breed for "ONLY" looks. These are herding dogs and should be used for that. My name and repetition is on those papers and the last thing I want to do is breed unsound dogs. If NOT showing them in conformation makes me a bad breeder....then, I guess I am by some standards. At least my ACD's are genetically sound and are not carriers of PRA....and they still have the herding instinct, intelligence and herdability they were created to have in the first place. [/color][/b]

[quote name='RR'][quote]What is more important for breeding: A. a dog/bitch that are titled and may be carriers for a genetic defect, like PRA? B. OR --- an untitled dog/bitch that are genetically sound and correct[/quote] Obviously of the 2 choices B is better. I'd still prefer C. - a correct/sound Ch. title dog in my breeding program, and luckily I have that :lol: :lol: [color=red][b]You are but a few, then. [/b][/color] I believe in breeders putting the effort & time into showing dogs. I know I am proud to show mine and have meet some great people through showing, plus it continually allows me to learn. Its far from being "everything" but is one great way for me to see I am continuing to produce dogs who maintain/better the breed. This way I won't lose focus and become kennel blind like so many breeders who only think they have correct dogs. Everyone "knows" their dogs are good but whether they really are can be a different story. :lol: [b][color=darkred]There is also "show" blindness. So, for every coin the is another side. I do "KNOW" my dogs are correct, so I really hope that statement wasn't directed at me, but to me. [/color][/b] Then there is always D. an untitled dog unsound and incorrect. [color=red][b]Correctly stated.[/b][/color] I'm not sure why there is this feeling that Ch. titled dogs are incorrect, and I would definitley question the breeder so against showing. [color=darkred][b]Because I've and (assuming by her post) HF ..... and several others have seen many, many unsound Ch. titled dogs that are continually being bred. For example: Australian Cattle Dogs that are carriers for PRA --- continually being bred all because they are "champions". NOT to better the breed, this is NOT bettering the breed! I am not against showing, just get a little resentful to continually have it crammed down my throat. I will NOT show my dogs in an AKC santioned show --- for one thing my dog are NOT show dogs they are working dogs. So, before you pass judgement that because I do not show that I am a bad breeder --- please take the time to find out more information about me and my dogs. [/b][/color] A responsible breeder is fully involved in their breed.[/quote] [color=red][b]From this statement's point of view at face value, you are correct. Being fully involoved in the breed does not make a person a responsible breeder. I respect your opinions and am not saying you are wrong. I'm only stating my opinions.[/b][/color]

......and another thing --- HF, you are so correct about the "show grooming" comment. It is the same thing with showing horses. I have seen lots of dying going on because a white stocking extended to far up. Hair weaving in the tail and mane to make them more eye appealing and longer. AND show cattle --- SQ injected with air to make them look fuller. The list goes on.......IT'S ABOUT THE ANIMAL for pete's sake.......NOT about YOU WINNING! Personally, I KNOW my dogs are good. I don't need another person's opinion.

HF -- I think you're batting a 1000. Being politically correct is sometimes not my nature. It's better to just spell it out, than to pussy foot around sometimes. :wink: I would rather have an untitled genetically sound dog --- ANYDAY over a 10X champion idiot that gets lost at the end of a leash and is not correct. I will not appologize for that statement, either. 8)

[b]What is more important for breeding:[/b] [b]A.[/b] a dog/bitch that are titled and may be carriers for a genetic defect, like PRA? [b]B. [/b] OR --- an untitled dog/bitch that are genetically sound and correct?

Out-crossing is just as valuable as in-breeding and line-breeding. Both should not be done by the amature or by someone that is not well versed in genetics.

Just like with showing horses ---- it's not how good your dog really is....it's how much a particular judge likes him/her (or whom is sleeping with whom, or who knows who, all political, personal and financial as to who wins in the show ring). If you walk in with a *superior, perfect in every aspect, Border Collie that just happens to be a smooth coat and someone walks in with a rough coat that has an overshot jaw, splayed front legs, weak hocks, not standard.........the rough coat will win over the smooth coat ---- EVERYTIME! It's how much the JUDGE likes the *look of a particular dog (not necessarily that the dog is correct either) or the person showing it, period.

Yeah, Luka that is so unfortunate. A person should not take "THEIR" short comings out on the animal. We see this so very much with herding dogs. A person who knows nothing about managing a herding dog, but needs one to work --- becomes frustrated because THEY have no idea what to do and end up calling the dog stupid. They then shoot it, dump it or abuse it because of their own ignorance. The same with horses. Time and time again I've seen a person hit their horse when "THEY" are the one that missed roping the calf --- NOT the horse!! The horse put him right where he needed to be to rope the calf and HE MISSED......so, he cusses and hits the horse! I pulled a man off a horse once for doing that. It just put me in rage to see him jerking and whipping that horse because of his ignorance.

HYPO --- means under. Maybe it should say "HYPERALLERGENIC TO SOME". :wink: .......and ONE size does NOT fit all!!! :lol:

On the other hand: In looking at the pedigree, hypothetically speaking of a pedigree --- there were champions top and bottom, then it tapered off. Does not mean the progeny wasn't show quality. It could mean that for whatever reason(s) they were never shown (financial problems, change of life situation, job interference, children, illness, etc...). A pup CAN be show quality *IF* the genetics are there to afford him/her the opportunity to become one ---- even though the parents were never shown. It DOES help that the offspring comes from good quality lines, from selective breeding.

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']One day when we were driving Hazel to Braside Kennels then we got a flat tired right beside a sheep pen. Hazel was good, just slept... but we were so bored, my mom was joking around and was like "Why don't you go play with Hazel and the sheep for a while, I'm sure she'll have fun!" Oh yeah, and the owner of the sheep too :roll: :lol: When I called her breeder and told him she was aggressive, he was like "Did she bite the sheep?" and I was like "no... we don't own sheep... my mom told you we were keeping her as a pet" and he was like "oh okay. But she didn't bite any sheep?" and I was like "no, but she did bite a person" and he was like "oh, okay." Like, right... Although he was the one to "make" my baby girl, I wouldn't recomend him to anyone looking for a pup. He's not exactlly the best breeder, and mom just recently informed me that he was probably a BYB :x :roll: All he cared about was whether she bit a stupid sheep or not, he didn't even care that she bit a person! :evil:[/quote] Okay....let me try to explain this to you and please don't take this personally --- it's not meant to be. First, anyone who sells a herding bred dog as a pet is just plain asking for trouble. A herding bred dog with a strong desire for herding does [b]NOT[/b] make a good pet (and should NEVER, EVER be sold to a pet family). Many will argue with me, that's fine. If you have a pet that is herding bred, than it should be neutered/spayed and NOT allowed to pass on his/her's NO desire to work genes. Our working dogs are also companions, but NOT pet's. I wouldn't have a pet as obnoxious-pain-in-the-butt-want-to-check-the-stock-at-3am-in the rain-non-stop-working-dogs as I have now. They *look* for something to pen or un-pen, gather, fetch, move, (harass, intimate, terrorize, etc...) 24/7/365 and in their sleep. If they can't get to it, they go thru it! If they aren't working, can't work, aren't allowed to work, they are depressed, bored, destructive, ill tempered, grouchy.....just nasty-bitchey-dogs. It's what their genetics scream and demand them to do. It's the forever, relentless internal tug to do something. You can't turn it off, you can't change it. The breeder was wrong for selling a BC/Aussie working bred dog to a pet only family. It wasn't fair to the dog, wasn't fair to both of the breeds and wasn't fair to the pet owner. He was wanting to know if she bit the sheep to see if she is livestock aggressive or has the courage to move stock. It's not that he wasn't interested in whether of not she bit a person ---- it just means more to a herding dog breeder if the dog shows what it takes to move livestock. Understand?

[quote name='Lord_Pik']Interesting.. make a really smart breed that doesn't get super-hyper and make them think they are a border-collie through and through.. :hmmmm: Sounds like an awesome working dog[/quote] Actually, it would not be an awsome working dog. The mix would dilute out some of the natural working (herding) ability. All you'd be left with is a dog that may have inherited *some* desire to work, but not enough to be a working dog. OR, no desire at all. Many, many BC's do not get hyper. A BC that is overly hyper and just plain hyper is BAD breeding. A working dog needs to be energetic, NOT hyper.

[quote name='luckychaos']I have a border collie/golden retriever mix. And even though he's not a herding mix [b][color=red]NOT? He IS a herding mix --- a Border Collie is a herding bred dog. Did you mean -- "even though he's a herding mix"?[/color][/b] no one told him that he wasen't a pure border collie. Although he is a little slower about commands becasue he so calm and never gets excited. My aunt and uncle have about 15 sheep on their farm, and they live about 2 hours away.[/quote]

[quote name='HazelNutMeg'] Well, I don't think I'd like to chance having Hazel tear apart a sheep. I've seen her with our horses we had before, and even after she was trampled once she'd still chase them. I know that's just her instinct kicking in, but we were really luckly she never got a hold of one of their legs. I know my Haze, the way she was acting was like she does when she goes after dogs/people :o [/quote] You [b]never[/b] just turn an untrained (without commands) dog loose in a pen with sheep or any livestock. There are steps you need to go thru first. You NEVER, EVER just set a dog free to *chase* the livestock. It creates BAD habits for one thing. A dog with a good solid DOWN is most important. Start a dog, on a lead, in a pen with the the stock. Always maintain control of your dog. Normally, in about 30 days she'd be going really good enough to be a functional working dog (if she had the instinct and desire to begin with).

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']Uh, I don't THINK she's aggressive... I know she is... or were you meaning that she can't herd? Well, she normally doesn't get along with ANYONE! Besides, not like we have any sheep for her to herd! :lol: And what i know of, there aren't any of those places where you can take your dog to teach them to herd around here![/quote] Fear and aggression are two totally different things and are normally mistaken for the same. But, that's been discussed and layed to rest. Just a general statement....some people think it's neat to have a fearful dog that they think is "aggressive". Yes, I was referring to herding. Getting along with someone has nothing to do with herding. Getting along with someone usually means she is fearful and not a truly human-aggressive dog. BC's and Aussie's have been bred for many years to be loyal to humans, not aggressive. It's a fear factor with your Hazel. In the entire world of Canada.....there aren't any sheep?? :wink: Some people like to participate in herding competitions. I guess some people don't, if it their dog is bred to do that sort of thing. Just general statements......not meant or directed towards you.

Lamb may be the culprit for containing a high amount of Ash. Too much Ash is known to cause calcification of the kidneys (Kidney stones).

[quote]Unfortantly, she's aggressive and so can't herd, which is a real pitty[/quote] Hazel --- why do you think this?

German Shepherd cross ....... probably no ACD (Heeler), tho.

In my mind, there is NO doubt that she fights her dogs.