Hobbit

[quote name='science_doc']The lack of genetic markers for canine diseases is exactly my point. Breeders claim they are only breeding "healthy" animals, but if there are no genetic screens, there is no way to know for sure. You can wait for a certain age to demonstrate that one specific animal doesn't have a disease phenotypically, but there is no way to know that they are not a carrier of a disease genotypically. In case you all are wondering what put the bee in my bonnet about dog genetics, here is a link to the article I read: [url]http://www.discover.com/apr_03/featscienceof.html[/url] Okay, Discover is not a peer reviewed scientific journal, but even a simpleton like me can understand the physics articles, LOL. I also found this site on a quick web search, but buyer beware, I haven't finished reading the whole site. I just think the first paragraph seems pretty interesting: [url]http://www.magmacom.com/~kaitlin/diverse.html[/url] I just wanted to say that I never ment to offend anyone with these posts.....I felt like this was a chance to combine my job which I have a great deal of knowledge about with my hobbie, where I often feel like a "little dog" amongst the "big dogs". So I guess I do feel emotional about the issue of dog genetics, cause it is so near and dear to my heart.[/quote] Thanks for posting the articles. I read the first and will read the second later. I can see the rational thinking on their part and understand what they are saying. It is ALL about winning for some that show and NOT about the dog. As long as this mind-set is prevalent, then genetic defects will continue to be knowingly passed from generation to generation. There are exceptions, so before anyone gets their dander up --- I did say "exceptions". And those are the very few that actually care about the dog first.....instead of winning. You did not offend me --- post on!!! :wink: You are right, no one can know 100% what hidden genetic defects their dogs are carrying.

[quote name='Pennynewf']Show me the marker for CHD, and prove it is strictly genetic. yes it may be, or it may not be.[/quote] Other factors can come into the picture sometimes -- like nutrition and environment (thus...environment pulling the trigger). [b]CHD is however; an inherited disease. [/b] A dog may be predisposed, genetically, for CHD and when exposed to additional supplementation and overnutrition that is not needed --- the CHD occurs. IF the dog had been fed properly, housed properly, exercised properly --- the CHD may not have shown up until later or been less severe, there is no way to tell this. It's not something that you can predict, you can only manage it (if the dog comes from CHD parents). "Canine hip dysplasia (CHD) is the most frequently encountered orthopedic disease in veterinary medicine practice. This extremely common heritable disorder of the growing dog can be influenced by nutrition. The period from 3 to 8 months of age appears to be important in the development of CHD, with the first 6 months generally thought to be the most critical. Early developmental findings of CHD, including joint laxity and coxofemoral anatomic changes, have been documented within 2 weeks of birth. Rapid weight gain in German shepherds during the first 60 days after birth has been associated with CHD at a later age. Frequency and severity of CHD are influenced by weight gain in growing dogs, especially if sired by parents with CHD or with a high incidence of CHD in their offspring. Dogs with weight gains exceeding breed standards have a higher frequency of CHD as well as more severe CHD than dogs with weight gain below the standard curve. In one colony of fast growing Labrador retrievers, the triradiate growth plates of the acetabula fused at 5 months as determined by conventional radiography; normal closure of these growth plates in pups growing at conventional rates has been reported to occur at 6 months. Early fusion in the acetabulum is speculated to result in bone/cartilage disparities in the future and to predispose to dysplastic changes. Limiting food intake in growing Labrador retriever puppies has been associated with less subluxation of the femoral head and fewer signs of hip dysplasia". Daniel C. Richardson DVM Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Surgeons

It STILL all connects back to genetics. They may be predisposed for a genetic defect and the environment pulled (or has pulled) the trigger.

Does he have the tan highlights? Could you post a picture? Heelers do not have white as you described.

Yeah, I knew you'd understand that --- it's on that kind of level. We can be *MINI* owner buddies. Eeeoowww, I can HARDLY wait. :roll:

[quote name='MiniAussies']Here we go again with the ole Genetics stuff. :roll:[/quote] I've been patient with you so far. Genetics IS the foundation of what is what, what is created, how it is created, and why. YOU don't have a clue, do you? It's obvious by this post and your previous post concerning the *Mini-Aussies. Would you like to contribute any of your genetics knowledge to this thread? Please do so, I would really like to hear your views --- genetically speaking, of course.

If you don't understand genetics, then you will [u]never[/u] understand. I really don't care if you breed your Aussie's, show them, herd trial them, whatever --- that's your business. I can only hope that the "breeders" breeding the small-version of the Aussie, Look-a-like Aussies, Miniature Aussies and several other names that they've been called and selling them for an [b]inflated[/b] price, justified because they are "rare" and "miniature" (which they are neither), will at least use SOME ethics and test for genetic defects and at least maintain a healthy line. Now.....I'm off to breed *miniature* ACD's and start my fullblood, new, rare, breed. :wink:

[quote name='science_doc'] Hobbit, I am pretty new to the idea of dog genetics, but I think that it's very cool. I have no interest in breeding dogs myself, but being a dog lover, I am wondering about the long term consequences of age old breeding practices. I have read that some breeds are almost entirely decended from a few champion lines, is this true? I would be really interested in learning more about how champion dogs are bred. [/quote] I can only comment on the breeds that I deal with; ACD's, Border Collie, Aussie, and Kelpie. If the current breeding practices and attitudes toward breeding do not change, the ACD as a breed will surely not survive. AKC show breeders are breeding for *looks* only, caring nothing about health. Caring only that they win in the show ring. This is evident by their breeding practices, attitudes and reluctance to change. Currently, a large portion of all ACD's are carrier's or affected for PRA. Breeders are not wanting to STOP breeding these carrier's or affected ones because as several breeders have said, "He's/she's a champion and I want a litter from him/her because of it", AND, "Well, he/she will probably go blind at around 9 or 10, but by then his/her show career will be over --- so who cares". They continue to do intensive inbreeding, fully knowing that their breeding stock has a genetic defect. They continue to breed without ANY regard to the consequences of the offspring, dog, or breed. Their excuse for their continual breeding of genetic defected dogs is that if they didn't, "the gene pool would be limited". Ask them what they mean by this? They haven't a clue. They don't want to stop because ALL they care about is WINNING. They dont' care about the breed, the dog or any consequences whatsoever! The Border Collie is becoming a show dog that is plagued with seizures, CEA and hip displaysia. As long as a particular dog is winning in the show ring, he/she will continue to be used for breeding ---- REGARDLESS of their health or genetic defects.

[quote name='science_doc'] what I don't understand is how they fail to realize that bad traits will segregate with good traits too.[/quote] Because they don't understand genetics or they don't care. They are after one specific trait or "LOOK". Some listen to what someone else says about breeding brother to sister ---- without understanding the possible outcome. The person telling them it is okay to continue to breed brother and sister --- usually has NEVER even heard the word genetic, let alone knows anything about it.

I have no idea what nonsense you are talking about. This isn't a hugh fight, you are the only one that preceives it as a confortation. I don't care either way if you are breeding Aussies. What you are saying is that that Mini-Aussie's are a DIFFERENT breed, a breed unto themselves --- HOW? A breeder breeds two standard Aussies and some of the offspring are small --- so they call it a "Mini" and say it's another breed. Genetically, this is NOT a new breed. It's just a smaller dog. Do you see why many people roll their eyes when someone says, "Oh, I have a Mini-Aussie, it's a new breed"?? Now, IF (which, is what makes more sense happened) Aussies breeders decided they wanted to try to make some money ---- they crossed their Aussie with a Corgis, Jack Russell, Sheltie, etc... then took that cross and crossed back onto the Aussie (crossed back and forth to achieve the height wanted) and sold all the standard sized and only kept the small ones ----- from there started a breeding program. The Mini history even says thru "intensive inbreeding" --- I would be really careful buying a dog that comes from intense inbreeding. Several breeders now don't bother to cross back to an Aussie. If it looks like an Aussie --- they sell it as a "Miniature". Another example: The names have been kept secret to avoid any slanderous remarks. A person, well versed in genetics, an ethical breeder --- bred for a litter of Australian Cattle Dogs. The resulting litter was 6 pups. Every puppy in the litter was smaller than normal, I mean REAL small (dwarf's actually). NOW --- do you think the small pups are another breed? NO, they are just small pups! The are MINIATURE in size, but NOT a different breed. Now, another lady (not ethical, but that's a different story) --- breed her ACD bitch to a Chihuahua and says the pups are MINIATURE HEELERS. They have the phenotype of the Heeler and the size of the Chihuahua. Maybe in a 100 years of perfection, she can call it a "NEW BREED".

Science Doc --- I think the article may be referring to something else. If a person wanted to incorporate a certain trait into a breed of dog that they had, they could manipulate a trait in using the genetics from another dog. Example: a while ago (like 8 to 9 years ago) some very political people decided that they wanted their Aussies to be able to hunt. So, thru the graces of the AKC, they were allowed to bred their Aussie to a Brittany -- "to put a better nose on them". That crossed puppy was then bred back to an Aussie (when old enough) and allowed to be registered as an Aussie. Jacsmom had some information on some other breeds being allowed to incorporate *outside* genes into a breed and then breed back for registration status. It was posted a while back on this forum. Several breeders do this to achieve the "perfect" herding dog, hunting dog, protection dog, etc... An understanding, a GOOD understanding, of genetics is needed. Both dogs need to be tested for genetic defects before breeding, or the offspring will be carriers or affected. Another example would be: If a person that raised Border Collies wanted more bite (and didn't want to take the time to breed selectively from BC's that had bite), then they could breed with another breed that was more animal aggressive, then breed back to a BC. It's being done alot in Oklahoma. People that are avid herd triallers are breeding a good working BC to a Kelpie, then crossing that offspring with an APBT. Some are breeding the BC to an APBT, then crossing that offspring to a Kelpie, then crossing back onto a BC. The use of similar breeds, will mostly ensure that the "look" of the original breed isn't deviated too much (from standard). Unsoundness bred to unsoundness will produce unsoundness any way you go about it.

Thanks Carol -- you WANT to believe that the person that you are entrusting your best friend too, knows what he's doing. I am not a trusting person in the first place and I always want to see the MSDS sheet BEFORE anything is done to my dog. Just like when Guy had surgery. I asked to see the MSDS sheet on EVERY drug that they were going to give him. I wanted to see every little detail about how the surgery would be done.....then after asking 2 hours worth of questions > things were still left uncovered and there were still complications. But, he's fine.....so far. My mother, NEVER asks questions. She just says okay, do what ever you need to do to make my dog well. And where she lives......the vet is notorious for killing small animals with his lack of or non-caring knowledge. She lives in a very remote area and he is the ONLY vet for many, many miles. Sorry to get off on that story. Alas, Deep said this would happen one day. I didn't believe him when he said it.......but IT HAS happened. :drinking:

[quote name='moodyblues'][b]First, there is a daily heartworm pill. It is called Filaribits and they have been around forever. Second, ANY AND EVERY DRUG HAS ADVERSE REACTIONS!! It is your job as a human being to ask intelligent questions to your vet and read the label. [color=red][b]Some people actually take their vet at his word. He is a professional and has taken an oath to inform his client of any and all reactions that could occur. I live in the real world and have never met a vet that discusses the possible side effects BEFORE the administration of the drug. Even IF a person, a normal everyday Joe off the street (not someone like yourself that has worked in the industry) were to think about asking to read the label --- how many could understand what they've written? How many would EVEN fathom that there was something called a MSDS sheet? How many would EVEN know to ask this question, anyway? Many -- many people take their animal to a vet having full confidence in this person to "HELP" their animal. They place the life of their animal in the vet's hands, thinking, or just knowing that he/she KNOWS everything there is to know about medicine and TRUSTS HIM TO NOT MAKE MISTAKES. [/b][/color] I am sorry for your loses, but every drug for man or animal has on the label: INDICATIONS, ADVERSE REACTIONS AND WHAT TO DO IF THEY HAPPEN (call poison control, call your vet, etc.) You can go to the company website at [url]www.proheart6dvm.com[/url] and see for yourself. I have worked in every facet of the small animal industry from working for a Vet, going to Vet Tech School to training dogs, showing dogs and grooming. [b][color=darkred]This makes you MORE knowledgable than MOST people who have NOT worked in this industry.[/color][/b] Use your God-given sense to think and use your mind for the safety and health of your pets and stop spreading petty gossip. [b][color=red]I MUST have missed a page or something --- where's the petty gossip? [/color][/b] You only have to be 13 years old to be on this site and it looks like there are a lot of young and impressionable people on this site. Cowgirl seems to have a good head on her shoulders and has given a lot of accurate information. I hope that you have all learned something from this experience with this drug. [color=red][b]Could you be just a little more condensending here? Again, MOST people do not have your knowledge of the industry and have not the vast experience that you have. Some people just TRUST their vet to do the right thing.[/b][/color] Also, I don't believe in dumping a ton of unwarranted drugs into my show dog's systems, I use other methods of controlling fleas, heartworm and other parasites. I use Holistic means of caring for all of my animals. If you would like to discuss, feel free to contact me. [b][color=darkred]Instead of belittling some one for NOT having the knowledge as you do concerning the holistic means by which to care for your animal, please share the knowledge. Until someone can show proof that the holistic med's work for the prevention of heartworms, it's best for the common person to still seek the advise of a medical professional.[/color][/b] [/b][/quote]

[quote name='MiniAussies']And I stand by MY POSTS! Being hard-headed isn't good. [color=red][b]Being hard-headed has NOTHING to do with it. Genetics has EVERYTHING to do with it. [/b][/color] They are real![/quote]

[quote name='MiniAussies']I have brought myself to a compromise here. I will say that Miniature Australian Shepherds are a branch of Australian Shepherds. So there! But Hobbit, I don't want to continue to debate with you, a little debate I said is alright, but a lot can hurt a friendship! Hobbit, I suggest looking into as many MAS website as you can to understand them better. They are recognized as well and that is a fact.[/quote] [b]And I suggest that you read and UNDERSTAND genetics.[/b] I don't care if they are recognized or not. The volume of "Miniature Aussie's" that are in existence today, is an indication that they did not evolve from two parents --- this is genetically not possible. It's an indication that they are crossed with another breed, like the Sheltie, Corgis or other small breed dog----and THAT makes them a breed unto themselves. The lady that allegedly started breeding Aussies had "Rodeo" Aussie's. Many, MANY of those Aussies were crossed with a smaller breed dog, whether you want to believe it or not. It obvious you know nothing about genetics. I'm not saying that because they are cross bred they are substandard. When AKC recognized the Aussie, this started their demise as a herding dog. They have been continually bred for "LOOKS" and NOT their herding instinct (herding has not even been considered in many breeding programs of Aussie's). It is hard to find an Aussie today that will even look toward livestock. There are still some of the old Los Rocosa and Slash V lines around that are being bred specifically for what they were created for in the first place.......HERDING. I am very aware of the history of these dogs, as well as other herding bred dogs ---- we use MANY (herding dogs) on the ranch. I am not the only one that has this mind set about the "Mini-A's", just not everyone is willing to speak up. Again, I am not calling YOUR dogs substandard, I would never, ever, say that about ANY dog --- no matter what.

That is wonderful. Glad you finally found something that worked!! Hum....are you sure she isnt' just tricking you? You know, lulling you into a false sense of security? :lol: :lol:

[quote name='MiniAussies']THEY ARE A BREED!!! There are TOY POODLES, and they are a breed. There are MINI SCHNAUZERS and they are a breed. MY DOGS ARE A REAL BREED!!![/quote] I still stand by my first post. If they are fullblood Australian Shepherd, then they are NOT a different breed (from the Australian Shepherd). IF they are in fact a "different" breed from the Australian Shepherd, then they [b]MUST[/b] be crossed with another breed to make them a DIFFERENT BREED! This is genetics, not me just saying this. If you dont' understand genetics, then you can't understand this. I am not saying that your *Mini-Aussie's are substandard.

[quote name='Foster']Hobbitt, Everyone once in awhile you will see ads for mini acd's... makes you want :snipersmile: someone There is no such thing as mini acd's[/quote] Foster --- I pm'ed you on this.

How can they be a breed, if they are not crossed with something else? IF genetically they are the same, then they are the same breed and not different. This would be like me having small ACD pups and saying they are a different breed --- just because they are smaller than standard.

[quote=Mary's Mama]Hobbit - I agree with you that I am skeptical of the "mini" aussie. Remember thought that the AKC is not the last word in breeds and is often more motivated by politics than anything else. [b][color=red]Boy you are so right! I am not a fan of the AKC because of their underhanded motives. My question was questioning the fact that the AKC saw the Aussie's were becoming a money making deal and they capitalized on them by recognizing them as a breed (like they are the ONLY power that can do this! :roll: ). BUT, they didn't recognize the *Mini-version, which by far is more the money maker than the standard size. Money and politics motives the AKC. [/color][/b] I guess what would convince me would be pedigrees. If you can prove that there have been multiple generations of this dog breed without mixing in another breed, then I would say okay. [color=darkred][b]Just because a certain sire is listed, doesn't mean that HE is the correct sire! :-? . There is a man in Kentucky that breeds Aussies. I know for a fact that he crosses his Aussie bitches with Border Collies to put the herdability BACK into the Aussie. He uses the papers from an Aussie male (living and deceased) and registers all his pups as fullblood Aussies. Complaints have been filed and proof provided, even by his own family --- nothing has ever been done about it. [/b][/color] All in all AKC acceptance doesn' t mean it is or is not a breed. [b][color=red] Right and I am very (VERY) vocal about this, being that I've got Australian Kelpies (the working kind, not the show kind). We have our own registry and refuse to allow the AKC to recognize the working Kelpie as a breed. They are a breed and don't need the blessing from AKC to say they are.[/color][/b] [/quote]

.......and, IF they've been around for this many years, then why didn't the AKC recognize them along with the standard sized Aussie?

I'm still looking for the genetic proof. Many Aussie's are being crossed with Shelties and registered with the NSDR (National Stock Dog Registry) as "Miniature" Aussies (and called fullblood Aussies).

I agree with Carol, too.

[quote name='Jerakeen']Actually there are longhaired Dalmatians! see [url]http://www.geocities.com/~paisleydals/color.html[/url] Bec[/quote] Hey, thanks for posting that site. It was very interesting! :D

No offense meant but: I find it hard to believe that no other breeds were introduced to *produce these miniatures. If a breeder did produce a smaller version of the standard, it would take YEARS to produce the volume or quantity of the "Mini-Aussies" that are around today. I'm not being hateful, really. Just trying to find proof, genetic proof, that one day long ago -- one miniature pup was produced from standard sized parents and the multitude that are in existence today are all from that bloodline.