Puppies, Confidence, and Aggression? Input Appreciated

[Edgar]

Yesterday a friend of mine brought over their 6 month boxer Goliath (cutest pup ever!) to play with my six month old GSD Blitz. As soon as Blitz saw him he started getting hyper and barking (he loves to play!). However when Goliath came inside the house first thing he did was tackle Blitz to the ground. At this point Blitz started whining like crazy and running away as if he was going to die or something! Goliath basically kept bowling him over during the initial meeting while Blitz made no effort to protect himself, he just wanted to get away (but he couldn't due to the confined space of the room)!

This went on for some time, so I figured it would be best to let them play in the backyard where they'd have more space. Things were better there and Blitz started to interact a bit more, they basically wrestled for 2 hours from that point on. No biting really just wrestling and switching between dominant positions. At one point Blitz had Goliath cornered on top of a table and wouldn't let him come down (was growling a bit too) and as soon as I intervened he basically lied flat on the ground and stopped.

Needless to say the boxer pup had way more energy and by the end of it Blitz was ready to pass out. :lol:

My question is how do you guys handle puppy/dog aggression? Should I let Blitz wrestle? I've never seem him start any "agressive" games but once they start he seems to go on forever.

For a GSD Blitz seems very gentle. He loves playing with kids, loves snuggling up close to the family, and never bites. I can see that he's going to be protective because if he hears a sound in the house and doesn't know where its coming from the first thing he does is get up and barks/growls. He's never actually growled at a person though.

He doesn't seem to lack confidence because the first thing he does when he sees another dog is run up to it and either bark or lick its face (but maybe I'm reading him wrong?). But the minute the other dog shows any aggression he seems to get pretty scared. Never barks at people, usually he just ignores strangers, but as soon as the stranger becomes a friend the first thing he wants is a belly rub.

Is that normal for a 6 month pup? How should I react? Generally I just ignore him when these things happen and sort of let them play out. Eventually I'd like to get him into Schutzhund training, but I think his confidence needs to be 100% first.

Thanks!

[JudyHoffman]

I need to think about this a little, but FIRST AND FOREMOST stop labelling what the dogs were doing as AGGRESSION!

Sheesh ....... 6 month old pups that come from good breeding stock, with no genetic defects and are perfectly healthy are behaving like "snotty" teenagers.

These dogs behavior should not be labelled or considered AGGRESSION!

Of two dogs, one has to be the dominant of the two and it seems that Goliath was and Blitz was responding in tune to that.

It's not a big deal but if it really bothers you, take your dogs to an obedience class and teach them "manners" on how to behave with other dogs. If you don't, another dog will and that may not produce the consequences that you like.

Secondly, dogs should not be allowed to "wrestle" in the house where there is a small space. Allowing them to do so, and have something escalate out of hand will truly be "handler" error. Dogs should have manners in the house, settling down nicely and comfortably, even 6 monty old pups.

[JudyHoffman]

[quote]the first thing he does when he sees another dog is run up to it and either bark or lick its face [/quote]

This is very [b]bad doggy manners[/b], even if Blitz means it in the nicest of ways. Most dogs have their "space" bubble and if another dog invades that space, ignoring the others dogs signals and body language, they will in fact growl and bark. When other dogs growl bark at your GSD, they are essentially saying "GET OUT OF MY FACE" and if your dog won't he could in fact get bitten.

As a good and responsible owner it is your job to read your dog and now allow him to enter another dogs space without permission from the other dog handler and dog.

[samsmama]

[quote name='"JudyHoffman"'][quote]As a good and responsible owner it is your job to read your dog and now allow him to enter another dogs space without permission from the other dog handler and dog.[/quote]

Could you give a little synopsis on how that should be done?? Should she have her dog on lead in that situation?

[JudyHoffman]

Absolutely! Most times its dogs on lead that get in other dogs faces and handlers think it's OK because they are on lead.

Obedience Class teaches handlers and their dogs how to behave in a meet and greet situation.

I'll post more tomorrow.

[samsmama]

Please do. I am in obedience school, for 8 weeks now, with a dog I got three and a half months ago from the humane society. He's too old for puppy socialization classes and would love more information on how to socialize sam to other dogs. He is similar to the dog on the original post. He does tend to get in other dogs faces. And he rushes up to other dogs like the "dominant" dog does. I always have Sam on lead when we go for walks, but i would like to take him to the dog park more consistently, but I don't feel like I know enough about him yet to completely trust him around other dogs.

While you are most familiar with pure bred dogs (i've read your other posts), could you give some insight to a mutt (lab/golden retriever/ shepherd) owner?? :)

[Guest Anonymous]

I fight that demon all the time. Drey loves to run up to other dogs to play. The good is that his intentions are great when he does it. the bad he is a pit bull and if another dog were to nip at him, i dont want to open that can of worms. I try to get a good sit out of him and then let the dogs get close and at the end of a well gripped leash let them meet and see how the other dog will tolerate his over-whelming energy. its not aggression at all simply dominant and sumbissive. Now dont tell Drey i said this but, as dominant as hecomes off he is really very submissive. But Drey has his limits when Deja pushes his around she will whoop on him and wrestle him down for 20 minutes and hten when he doesnt want to play anymore he gets her back and that ends that game. Neither of my dogs are aggressive, although Deja could pass for dog-aggressive if you didnt know her different barks(the high-pitched excited bark).

[Edgar]

I guess "rough" play would be better. However I'm not just wondering about that sort of play but also about real aggression and how to deal with it. Especially because they are puppies now and what is play today is sure to change (possibly for the worse) once they mature up a bit.

[courtnek]

[quote]Of two dogs, one has to be the dominant of the two and it seems that Goliath was and Blitz was responding in tune to that[/quote]

Judy is right on this one. This is just dogs, deciding who gets to be top dog between them. They should not be allowed to wrestle in an enclosed space, because the "loser" has nowhere to go. But in the yard, as you saw, where there is room to move, the loser will be able to move away out of the winners space, and all will be well. With puppies, it's not so much aggression as "laying down the rules".

As far as running up to other dogs outside, that is a definite no-no. You have no way of knowing how the other dog will react, it is better to have
them meet lead-to-lead, where you can pull them away if necessary.
Some dogs are fine with a bouncing puppy in their face....my dog, Freebee, would not be. She would raise hackles, snarl and demand respect, even from a puppy. And she gets it, because her snarl is threatening and her hackles are obvious, since her hair is so short.
The point here is to make sure your dog does not approach another one without the owners permission, and I would still watch closely. You know how your dog will probably react, but there are a lot of clueless owners out there who dont know how their dog will react, or dont care....

p.s. Freebee is NEVER walked off lead, for that very reason. Unfortunately, not all owners feel the way I do about it.

[JudyHoffman]

SamsMom ..... how old is your rescue? Just curious.

Do you know any of his background?

Even tho I know pure bred dogs, that only helps because I know the pedigrees and the temperment/drive of their ancestors. I also have a Heinz 57 dog, Tucker that I found in a parking lot at 9 weeks old. He is the sweetest most wonderful dog ever and I know nothing about him, but I try to learn about dog behavior.

Basically, dog behavior is dog behavior.

8 weeks does not a miracle make. Socialization is always good, no matter what the age of the dog.

Most people think that dogs automatically trust, not so, not even with pure bred dogs bought up in the most desirable of circumstances.

Trust is earned, on both sides of the coin. Earned from dog to human and human to dog. It's that simple.

You need to put your dog in circumstances, safely, so you can learn his reactions and work on them. Your trainer should be helping you stop Sam from lunging at other dogs on leash.

The best and positive way I see work with many dogs is quite simple. In a training class, keep a safe distance from the other students/handlers. Ask the trainer not to pet your dog but to toss him treats from a distance. YOU should have him in a comfortable sit or down stay position. If he makes a move towards the treat and the handler who tossed the treat you should be PRAISING a lot. It took much courage for him to do that.

After a period of time, he will approach other people/dogs.

A quick story. My daughter is 12. She just finished a 6 week Basic Obedience Class. The first two weeks this 4 month old pup was lunging/growling and barking at all the students/handlers and even the trainer. This past Saturday they graduated, first in their class, did all obedience exercises with ease and even managed a "Sit & Greet" exercise, allowing 6 dogs and handlers and the trainer to come up and pet her and treat her.

I DID NOTHING to help, only encouraged my daughter to work with Emy 20 minutes/twice a day, on walks, before bed, at feeding time.

It can be done and it is NEVER TOO LATE to socialize a dog. They want to please their humans, it's finding what makes them tick and turn them on that is the secret.

To Edgar, if you had a truly aggressive dog, in the true sense of the word, your dog would be aggressive by now and believe me you would know it. With your dog, it SOUNDS as if you will always need to be careful with her, being as she is so friendly and does not know her boundaries with other dogs. It will take another dog to teach him/her that.

My dogs, ages 11 1/2 = 6 months all play together. They play with their teeth, their paws and they roll each other all the time. They are always "covered in spit". I have never had a "bloody" play time. This is how dogs play.

When one irritates another they get very loud (growling/hackles up/barking/lots of warning "smiles") but they "heed" each others warnings. I think in all the time I've had all 5 dogs, maybe I've had 3 bloody incidences and ALWAYS because one of the dogs refused to heed the warning of the dog that was "irritated". Of these bloody altercations, none needed to go the vet, I always cleaned the wound and within minutes they were back to playing again.

Quite simply, if you are confident that your dog is a great dog and the dog they are playing with is a great dog, let the dogs handle their own differences. No one corrects or reads a dog better than another dog.

[samsmama]

[quote name='JudyHoffman']SamsMom ..... how old is your rescue? Just curious.

Do you know any of his background?[/quote]

Sam is a little over a year, and he's altered. From what I can tell from his adoption papers, he lived with a family that had other cats and other dogs, which made me think he was well socialized around other animals. Unfortunatley, he's a little unpredictable around other dogs. Or perhaps it's just that I haven't figured out his patterns yet :oops: . I am trying, though!

He will lunge, growl/bark at this one dog at dog obedience school. My trainer showed me a way to turn his head away from dogs he's "looking at" and getting ready to bark at. Yesterday he had no issues at dog school. I just kept him away from the dog he doesn't like. But I wish our class did something around socializing with other dogs. For example, they've practed the trainer approaching the dog and touching the dog, which doesn't affect Sam, but there's no dog interaction in class at all.

I've tried him at the dog park, and he seems like like to "bother" more submissive dogs, and once in my backyard, another dog got in, and he lunged and got into a scuffle with the neighbor dog. No one was hurt. I think it was probably over territory. He did not know this dog at all.

Well, any suggestions would help. :)

[JudyHoffman]

[quote]made me think he was well socialized around other animals[/quote]

This was your first mistake. You should have asked. He also may have been picked on by other animals in his home.

He does not sound like a bad dog, he just needs some manners. Perhaps lunging/barking growling is his way of initiating play? Does he go into a play bow stance?

You need to teach focus/attention on YOU.

Just because your class doesn't teach socialization doesn't mean you can't do it on your own.

Take him out yourself. Arm yourself with lots of treats and a clicker. Walk about a strip mall, at a distance at first and ask him for attention & focus. If he gives it, you praise and treat a lot.

After a few days of this, add a dog into the mix ........ do the same thing. You need to teach him focus and attention and he needs to know that YOU are the giver of all good things, treats, pets etc.

You should walk him in his obedience class closer to the other dogs, well within his comfort zone. Notice the distance that he starts to feel uncomfortable. You need to work on closing that gap or distance. This you do by shortening his "space" by inches a week, with lots of treats and praise and preferably a clicker if you have one so you can mark his good behavior in a way he understands that what he is doing is good.

[samsmama]

Thanks so much. I'll give it a try.