Kaleb124 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 [quote name='"Anonymous'] I think he does have a great book and I don't feel that people should judge training they don't know anything about. I feel you should learn as much about the training (not necissarily using it) before you dismiss it...but thats my opinion. [/quote] Sounds like we are very close to being on the same page...about that anyway. Anywho, we all have a great deal of room for improvement. Adam's may be PR. Mine is being .....well I have more need for improvement than I care to publicize. I just got my feathers ruffled when Doglistener went on this "we have to stop this man" kick. I have enjoyed talking with you.....I just wish I knew who I was talking to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 [quote]Adam does not encourage people to abuse their dogs. He does urge them, however, to learn to communicate with their dogs in a way that they instinctively understand[/quote] OK, I have MY flame suit on.... :evil: I have read this mans posts, part of his book, and while I agree that different dogs require different training methods NONE OF THEM REQUIRE PAIN to be trained. I have no problem with prong collars, some dogs need a sterner method of control. Some people cannot handle a large, powerful dog as it drags them down the street during a walk. You have to deploy the tools necessary to fit the dog, and it's problems. His basic CONCEPT is correct. I AM THE BOSS, DEAL WITH IT. However, his means of implementing that thought process are wrong. You do not need to inflict pain or fear on an animal to make it behave. I have "broken" many overly dominant dogs in my day, and NEVER had to hit, drag, scream or maul them in any way. I have never lifted a dog off its feet by a choke collar for misbehaving. I have studied wolves for many years. And I can tell you straight that if you implement pack rules, the dog will be trained. In a short period of time. This is the "instinctive" knowledge that all dogs have. They understand the pack order, the pack rules, and you can manipulate them to your needs quite easily. Without screaming, without pain. The problem that most people have with pack rules is that they DONT understand the role of ALPHA....If they did, the dog would not have become a problem in the first place!!! Alpha means "do it my way..." NO exceptions. But people tend to be very fond of their dogs, give them priveledges they shouldnt have (like sleeping on the bed, eating first, entering doorways first, etc) and with a dominant dog, before long it's a "problem child"...with a naturally submissive dog, it's no big deal. With a Rottie, or an Akita, or a Shepherd, IT'S AN ISSUE.... This man is deploying ALPHA status with a vengeance, and it's not necessary..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Oh come on now.... I do make my way in his site from time to time, I do post occassionally. Am I about to tell you who I am? Nah. I know I'd be banned for "slander" for lack of a better word, as fast as I can hit the submit button without a second thought. I'm not stupid. I've made my point and thats enough info for any of us. If the need arises I will continue to do so. And so will others. His methods have been used for years and years. They can be used, they can also be abused. Like I said I don't feel he's promoted abuse. I have never seen him imply that its a good thing to inflict pain on any pet. [b]I don't feel his methods are necissary for every dog.[/b] I will defend Adam as I have [b]also[/b] done here in other posts when it is needed but I'm NOT about to defend the things that he puts on himself. He has [b]a lot[/b] to learn about the business industry much to what he actually portrays. He's actually shown he knows very little about it. I also feel that yeah he might know a lot about dog training but the fact that he closes off to learning makes him no different or better than any other person he bounces off his site for the same crap. Dog training is something you NEVER should stop learning about. Yeah you have to weed out the good from the bad and in the end you have to make the decision. You are right, there are more than one way to skin a cat. There are also different temperaments and the statment that all dogs are hardwired the same way is ignorance. Thats like saying all humans are hardwired the same way. It someone were to walk up and start pounding on you some will fight it and some will run away... I know he thinks he knows it all though. :roll: :roll: :roll: Nothin is going to change that...so he's gonna have to learn to live with what he causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Just testing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doglistener Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Kaleb [quote name='Kaleb124']DogListener -- You are taking many different bits of information out of context, twisting them, and making Adam look like a two-headed monster. There are many ways to "skin a cat"....There are many different ways to train dogs. Not all training methods work well with all dogs. Dog Problems Forum is NOT a PUBLIC forum. .[/quote] As far as I am concerned he is a two headed monster! you are well aware that I was banned immedietley therefore how can I converse with him, I never did in the first place all I did was answer some queries using behavioural approaches. I was bounced out the forum for that? however a large group of people then complained that I had been banned and said that it was like a breath of fresh air had wafted in so what did he do to the people who complained that I had been banned? Correct go to the top of the class "he banned them" Does this sound like a private forum to you? this is from the heading of his own site. [quote]Got A Dog Training Question? Here's How To Get An Answer From Hundreds Of Professional Dog Trainers, Dog Owners, Groomers, Veterinarians And Just Plain 'Ole Dog Lovers![/quote] How can you also countenance this mans methods when you clearly state [quote] There are many different ways to train dogs. Not all training methods work well with all dogs. [/quote] yet one of Katz's tirades starts with. [quote]There is a myth going around that I'm going to address here. The myth is that: Different dogs need different training approaches. This is bunk. Pure hogwash. [/quote] I am sorry if I have ruffled your feathers by suggesting this man should be investigated and stopped however that is exactly what should happen. He is a bully it shows in his methods it shows in his disdain for his clients and it shows in his arrogance. I don't believe bullies should be allowed anywhere near dogs. All he talks about is his dime "whatever that means" Money Money Money. he even said he didn't give a toss about the dog business because he is now involved in real estate and that's making enough money for him............................... Are you sure you feel comfortable with that statement and this man dealing with your dog? I personally wouldn't let him within 500 yards of any of my animals. When he had a revolt on his site because he had bounced me off he said I was trying to get business on the back of his site and once again on his dime, accusations that are patent lies. I am a Behaviourist based in London UK. I don't sell dodgy videos or books therefore how could I be profiting. I love dogs it is that simple. I don't sell my knowledge [color=red]I give it away[/color] just type in doglistener in to any search engine and see how many sites I have my articles reproduced on "FOR FREE" look at my website see how much information I give away for FREE see if their is any mention of money see iF their is any mention of aids such as Prongs, checks, or shock collars see if I am selling any goods? Noooooo I am not DOING any of these things I am imparting my expertise and advice to dog lovers....FULL STOP. On top of that I study 3 hours a day I am studying for a doctorate and unlike Katz I deal with dogs every day, by his own admission he hasn't personally trained dogs for years. does he imagine knowledge stands still? Please don't try and explain or condone the likes of Adam Katz to me I have met his ilk before and I deplore and abhor them all. The sooner this type of trainer is put out of business the better for all concerned but especially the dogs. Doglistener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I am a different *guest* from the ones who have replied and I have my flame suit on too, so here is my PERSONAL feelings on this whole thing, for what it is worth. Doglistener, I can understand your anger at being *banned* from Adam's site. I too, was banned because I had a personal disagreement with him. It had nothing to do with the advise I was giving. I also had a run in with Adam because when I first found his site, I sent for his book. I wanted to find out what the big *secret* about dog training was. When the book came, I realized I had been using his methods for years! (Oh! and btw...I have never and will never hang a dog by it's collar, and I have never heard Adam advocate doing that either. Whether he does it in real life, I don't know.) So, I sent the book back, and that warrented a personal phone call from Mr. Katz!!! I explained to him why I sent the book back, and I did receive a refund...HOWEVER, later on I decided I would like to have his book after all, just to add to my library of book, and he wouldn't send me one! All I kept getting was the computer downloaded version and when I would ask where the paperback book was, he would say I didn't order it, but I know for certain on at least one occassion, I did! I even told him I would pay for the book alone, if it was my mistake, but he wouldn't let me do that, either! So my personal dealings with Mr. Katz have not always been of a positive nature, but I have nothing against his training methods. Personally, I use whatever training (have been for many years) method works on the particular dog I am training. I do feel that no matter what type of dog you are training, the praise/correction method works the best, because a dog, like us, needs clear guidelines to follow, and has to know what is *good* and what is *bad*, from a human standpoint. That is why so many dogs end up in shelter's and on behaviorist's couches. They were allowed to make their own *choices* by their owner's, and ended up as really confused puppies, so to speak, so I definitely don't go along with today's way of thinking..."ignore the *bad*, praise/treat the *good*. If you praise the *good* and balance that with correcting the *bad*, the dog will clearly understand what is expected of him and will be a happy, well adjusted dog. All that aside, ALL of us have our own ideas of what is the best way to *train* a dog and unless it can be proven that Mr. Katz's method is anymore cruel than yours or mine or John Doe's, my advise is to go ahead and vent about the man himself, but leave his training method's out of it. I don't go along with PP, clicker and all those kinds of *training*, and I don't go along with using head halter's on dogs, but I don't try to put professional trainer's who use them out of business! It's up to us, as individuals, to find the training method and tools that work best for us, and not for anyone else to decide. I truly hope you can put all this behind you. As I said, I was where you are right now, and it does pass. He's not worth our time and anger! Have a great day.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 oh hey, BTW Kat. I was wondering since you are the moderator of DogProblems maybe you can enlighten me on why GSD Ken was banned? I just noticed this today, much to my surprise...someone must have itchy fingers over there. Just interested to know since he wasn't giving bad advice and he did not violate ONE of the Terms of Service "rules". Nothing he has said goes against what Adam preaches. I find it rather ironic that he started that thread upset that Doglistener was banned so soon and just inquiring why. All he said was he only would have liked to get to know more about what doglistener was experienced in. He wasn't even rude about it, although a little upset and for that he got banned? Seems like there are no REAL defined set of rules to live by in his forum. Honestly you can give as much crappy advice as you want there, it doesn't matter what it is about. People including trainers can and even have given abusive information in training and in how they handle things. I just ran acrossed this today as I was reading through the recent posts! [quote]Bulldogs have very very high pain tollerance, so the fact that a prong collar correction doesnt do a thing to him is something I can sighn w/ both hands. I can lift my bully off the ground by his ears and he wont even sqweal. I started him young, at 8 weeks he was wearing the small prong collar. Don;t get the large ppong, as a matter of fact nobody should use the largerst prong collat, it's too heavy, and doesnl;t deliver enough correction. [/quote] This person has represented themself as a trainer on Adam's site for the last YEAR!!!! You let this garbage spew from her keyboard all the time from what I've seen. The best you have to offer this thread or this person is a editorial disclosure at the end of her post of what you SUSPECT this trainer really meant? Pathetic. Thats great novice dog owners walk away with that information. What you suspect...nice. That doesn't get deleted but the second someone questions management even slightly, or even nicely you bet your butt that gets deleted quicker than you can read the sentence. You bet your butt theres going to be consequences for it more than likely as well. All I have to say is WOW...that is true professionalism. Sorry but Adam has waaaay more to work on than his PR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doglistener Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 OK Katz Come on this forum and explain yourself? You will not beleive this mans arrogance if he does Doglistener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 [quote name='Anonymous'] oh hey, BTW Kat. I was wondering since you are the moderator of DogProblems maybe you can enlighten me on why GSD Ken was banned? I just noticed this today, much to my surprise...someone must have itchy fingers over there. [/quote] I have no idea why Ken was banned. I was out of town from Wednesday before Thanksgiving until Wednesday of this week....I was SHOCKED to see that there was more drama. Thursday I had an e-mail saying that Ken had been banned. I do not know why. I like moderating the board. I don't moderate because I have a great knowledge of dogs, but because I have computer knowledge. I am learning about dogs. I am also not there to make friends. It is not that I am a unfriendly person or unsocialable, but I prefer to get to know people in person. And I began coming to the forum to learn about dogs. I have learned a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doglistener Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Hi Caleb I can tell you why GSD was bounced? Because he questioned why it should be my way or highway and unfortunately he questioned why I had been banned. I must stress that I did not go on the forum to cause problems I just answered peoples problems and thats all. Katz felt threatened and panicked but then all bullys are cowards. He threatens everyone that he will sue for slander if anyone disagrees or questions his ability. So! You are useless! a waste of space, a joke in the training world and you renege on your guarantees and promises. Sue me. if you are so confident of your own honesty and veracity. but you will have to prove your guarantees and promises. Doglistener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 It has nothing to do with friendship why I asked. I wasn't much of a fan of Ken but I'm well aware of what all happened, what was said and was quite shocked and apalled that Ken had been banned for just stating an opinion. I'm sure Ken was quite shocked as well. In his last post he was even quite friendly to Adam. He showed him quite a bit of respect dispite disagreeing. Even said that he never insinuated he was in it just for the money. I know Adam saw it because he replied. I guess the fact that he put the thread up questioning Adam was enough to get banned (not that he would have known that was a rule or anything) but not until the thread hit the second page so others wouldn't notice. :roll: He should add to his TOS, "don't step on toes, feelings and opinions against only management will get you banned of course adding that managment can treat you however they want. Doglistener don't count on Adam coming for a rebuttle. Judging from some the content (as well as lack there of) of his own moderator's posts I doubt Kaleb124 even told him this conversation is going on. He probably knows nothing about it. Even if he did of course, he owes no one anything. Thats just the way he works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I have only been a member for a little over a year. I cannot attest to what happened before I joined obiviously. But, in the summer, many people were posting on the board just to stir up trouble. Maybe it was because Adam had stepped on their toes and that was their way of getting back at him, I don't know. [And for all I know, the "guests" that I am talking to could be one or some of those people.] I know that at that time 14 plus people were banned. A couple...more than a couple..... of those people I looked up to. I enjoyed reading their input about training. AND I got a lot of good advice (and some well needed chastisement) from many of them. I digress. Anywho, maybe Adam banned Ken and the others (most recently) to try to avoid that same thing that happened this summer. I don't really know. The only thing that I remember that might have had attributed to Ken's being banned is that he and Adam have had words before. This might have been the preverbial last straw. I did like Ken and enjoyed reading his posts. I had even corresponded with him when I was trying to decide about changing Kaleb's diet. He was a big help to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 And I'm just sayin he is disliked for a reason. I saw these things happen too. I've been a member probably longer than you have. I saw a lot of the posts that were deleted as well and it seemed they had valid reasons to at least be angry from the things they said. Do I think they handled it maturely? No. Definately not. Was it right? No. I too saw the stupid posts they put up. I probably saw all of the posts but I also saw a lot of their posts reasoning things. Letting people know the things that they knew. Again, their anger at him seemed valid. Those people seemed to be posting those things that seemed pretty sincere since there were so many of them with issues as well as what I've read elsewhere. It seemed as though he was and had been stirring up the trouble (from what I remember anyway). Does the stupidity justify it? No. Absolutely not. It never does. Don't keep forgetting he creates the distain himself. He has not learned from the past. Just as we saw here. I don't feel he is as much the victim in all these things in all reality. He seems to be quite an instigator actually. I feel he does a good job trying to play the part of the victim. I've seen things on other websites directed about him. Entire threads on other large forums about him. About confrontations and such with this guy. If he's so innocent, such a victim in all this why would so many people dislike him or have personal problems with him? He's not liked by a lot of people. People who don't participate on his board. People who know him and have met him in person. Other trainers who practice the same types of training even as well as his own clients. Heck you haven't even put up much of a defense in his favor here. Somewhat but not much. What does that tell me? I have to go with, the behavior chooses the consequence. General public believes the customer is always right. Adam Katz I know for sure doesn't ever remotely believe that. His concentraition is completely off scale. The fact that he cares more about people who have little minor piddley opinions that don't coincide with his, as opposed to the people who are regulars who pose an actual danger (just like the example I gave) to the many untrained people on his site is disgusting. And he's let it go on and on. To add about his customer service skills quote and the art of diplomacy. You do the customer a service for which they pay. You have to train the customer to train the dog. Customer service is very well part of the package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 [quote]I know that at that time 14 plus people were banned. A couple...more than a couple..... of those people I looked up to. I enjoyed reading their input about training. AND I got a lot of good advice (and some well needed chastisement) from many of them. [/quote] So why on earth would you want to be a moderator on a site that would run off and ban the very same members that you claim to look up to :o ? Unless you prefer to live in a totalitarian state :roll: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 From my (albeit tainted) point of view....I moderate that site to help prevent things like that from happening. I am there to enforce whatever rules Adam tells me to enforce, and (hopefully) try and keep the peace while doing that. But I have no sympathy for people who end up "trolling". I like to think that I will be able to 'help' someone who needs it....Maybe you will laugh at that, but that is what I think. I am not here to try and defend Adam as a human (well mostly). I don't even begin to know him well enough to try that. And the only personal dealings that I have had with Adam, he was very nice and very helpful. [And no I am not screwing him, contrary to what some think.] But I chimed in in the beginning just because some things were said that were just not true. And I wanted to set the story straight. And I think that it is outrageous to try to put someone out of business just because that person pissed you off. (talking specifically to Doglistener here.) It is like someone cutting you off in traffic so you decide to 1.) stalk them 2.) get the fired from their job and 3.) ruin their family/life.....basically try to take away every good thing that they have just because they are a crappy driver and they pissed you off. I just think that it is silly/dangerous.....people will end up reaping what they sow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 In regards to the so called *trainer* who posted about lifting her bully up by the ears. She has been posting on Adam's site for about 2 years now. She was there when I was, so I know it has to be well over a yr. or more. This person, I believe, has given the most idiotic advise for as long as she has been on there! She once said if a trainer doesn't work with aggressive dogs, they cannot call themselves a trainer! BS,BS,BS..is all I have to say! She also said she is proud of her bite wounds, because they are proof she is a good trainer! Oh really? I would say anyone who has been bitten more than a couple of times had better look for a new profession! I was bitten the first time I assisted a dog training class, and never was again! I got smart! And yet she is allowed to write that crap! Well, maybe Kaleb and Adam need some *comic relief* now and then at the end of a tough day, too, so let her stay. I also believe this person is from the UK., and I would love to have doglistener take her on and get her banned from ever training again! Now THERE is someone who needs to be out of the training business! She calls herself Veegaa....ack. (My ack!) :x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 kaleb124, i see on your personal page you also have a link to the leerburg site. i'd like to know if you really believe in this sort of medieval training method? can you sleep at night, recommending articles like that to people who visit your site? do you believe in the idea that a dog should obey you out of fear, not because he accepts you as a pack leader? the following quotes really make me cringe: "This dog needs some serious ass kicking. This can be accomplished with a prong collar or an electric collar (the Tri Tronics collars work well). But none of this will work unless you decide that you are tired of this dogs behavior. You need to develop the attitude of "I am tired of this shit and I am not going to take it anymore!!!" This means that you are going to learn to correct this dog hard enough that it respects the consequences of not minding - a VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT." "What your dog needs is a good ass kicking when he bites like this. I will guarantee you that I would be able to stop this dog from doing this in about 10 minutes." "These dogs need level 10 corrections, (explained in the tape.) They must fear the correction worse than the 'demon'." "When a dog jumps on you, the solution I use is to grab the front feet and pinch the toes until the dog screams." "But to accomplish this the dog must respect the consequences of not minding, meaning it must respect (fear) the correction that comes for not minding." "On a bitch like this, I would put a prong collar and a 6 foot drag line and let her wear it around. When she jumped up I would say "NO!!! NO!!! NO!!!" Your screaming voice can be a powerful correction. I also would cold clock her as hard as I could hit her. If need be I would kick her in the butt after I knocked her down" "I can tell you this, the dog needs to get corrected so hard and so severe when he bites at you that he fears for his life. If you do not have him wearing a prong collar and short walking leash (we also sell these) then you need to kick him in the head or beat over the head with the mop handle." "If this were my dog I would tell him "NO" in a very firm voice, if he did not instantly obey I would kick him right in the ass." "Kick him in the head. This is stupid. I don't have patience for dogs doing stupid things and this is very stupid." (in reply to a behavioral issue of a [b]bichon[/b], a dog that weighs what, 15 pounds????) that is just plain scary. i have no respect for people who publish garbage like that and call themselves experts on dog training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: wow...well I can't hardly take credit for whats mine but looks like theres a few more heated guests here than just I Kat. Cause those last few weren't from the person you've been talking to for the last couple days. :crazyeyes: I'm a little shocked to come back and see this :sigh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 [quote name='Kaleb124'] If you feel so very strongly about this, why did you choose to go to another dog forum to bad-mouth Adam? Why not just openly tell him how you feel? IN FACT why not take Adam up on his $10,000 challenge??? [url]http://www.dogproblems.com/challenge.htm[/url] ...and yes I know that this says that it is expired, but you never know. [/quote] well, i read the rules and all i can say is which reasonably sane person would hand over $10,000 to that guy before even being able to participate when he has set up those rules pretty cleverly in his favor? it's just another one of his marketing gimmicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 [quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='Kaleb124'] If you feel so very strongly about this, why did you choose to go to another dog forum to bad-mouth Adam? Why not just openly tell him how you feel? IN FACT why not take Adam up on his $10,000 challenge??? [url]http://www.dogproblems.com/challenge.htm[/url] ...and yes I know that this says that it is expired, but you never know. [/quote] well, i read the rules and all i can say is which reasonably sane person would hand over $10,000 to that guy before even being able to participate when he has set up those rules pretty cleverly in his favor? it's just another one of his marketing gimmicks.[/quote] Well, even more so, if he's not willing to HONOR $100 on his money back guarantee that he promotes for just a book then who the he** is gong to believe he'll fork over $10,000? I wouldn't trust him to pay up, he has lost all his accountability as far as I'm concerned. original gabbing Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doglistener Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 [quote name='Kaleb124']And I think that it is outrageous to try to put someone out of business just because that person p*** you off. (talking specifically to Doglistener here.) It is like someone cutting you off in traffic so you decide to 1.) stalk them 2.) get the fired from their job and 3.) ruin their family/life.....basically try to take away every good thing that they have just because they are a crappy driver and they p*** you off. I just think that it is silly/dangerous.....people will end up reaping what they sow.[/quote] It appears that everyone one on this site likes to use car analogies, for instance Katz uses the analogy of going into a Mercedes dealership and talking about BMWs, sorry just is not the same his is a forum about dogs and as he says the hundreds of dog trainers can give advice on it. It isn't advertised as a German Shepherd ar an Akita site so that analogy is absolute BS. With your analogy about cutting people up also doesn't hold water, imagine if that man cut you up every time you went out on the road? well that is what Katz is doing with his attitude, tactics and archaic training ideas. Have you also forgotten his outburst that his main income comes from real estate? and dogs are just a sideline! :agrue: Doglistener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 This is in response to "Guest" who made reference to the Leerberg site. First I don't know where you got those quotes from, but I am sure many were taken out of context. That site is dedicated to training protection/police/military/shutzhund dogs, not Foo Foo the poodle. These dogs are working dogs with drives that are off the chart. They are trained to bite and not to bite. I am afraid that throwing a can a pennies at a working line german shepherd who will not OUT is not going to work. If you visit the site on a regular basis, you would see that these trainers use positive reinforcement to train...probably more so then pet owners...so as to not kill the dogs drive which is essential for the work they perform. For reliability and proofing, they must use physical corrections. I am not opposed to any training method administered properly and humanely if it is necessary to train the dog. I am also not opposed to puely positive, if it works. The problem I have is with those who say that all dogs need a physical correction. They don't. And also with those who say all dogs can be trained with Purely Positive. They can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 [quote name='Another different Guest']This is in response to "Guest" who made reference to the Leerberg site. First I don't know where you got those quotes from, but I am sure many were taken out of context. That site is dedicated to training protection/police/military/shutzhund dogs, not Foo Foo the poodle. [/quote] Yes exactly.....what is someone supposed to do when a 100 pound GSD or mal decides to turn on YOU the HANDLER...???? Give it a cookie???? NOT!! :o :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 [quote name='Another different Guest']The problem I have is with those who say that all dogs need a physical correction. They don't. And also with those who say all dogs can be trained with Purely Positive. They can't.[/quote] I agree with this. The best dog I ever owned (a male Lab, mind you) never received any *formal type* obedience training, was never physically corrected, and never had a prong collar used on him. He didn't require it. I also believe that a dogs genes play a HUGE role in the overall picture, because the majority of dogs I have owned/trained, (all large breeds) [i] did [/i] require formal obedience training with a training collar. The above mentioned dog was the exception, to be sure, and they don't come along very often, but when they do, they are a joy to *train* and own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb124 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 [quote name='Doglistener']It isn't advertised as a German Shepherd ar an Akita site so that analogy is absolute BS.[/quote] I really do not understand what you meant by this Doglistener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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