Can hunting/fighting dogs be successfully rehabilitated?

[Louis]

Hi all

I would love your views on how successful rehabilitation of certain 'intensively' trained dogs can be?

Here in the Uk there has been considerable debate over the possible banning of certain 'bloodsports' involving hunting wild game with dogs. Not that it is particularly relevant but I do oppose such sports. A great deal of the outcry of the pro hunt lobby has been over the future of the hounds that chase these animals, and they have stated that they will have no future should hunting be banned, that entire packs will have to be destroyed. They are said to be used to kennel life and running as a pack, and though the RSPCA had offered to take on the dogs, the general consensus has been that it would be pointless as the dogs would be incapable of adapting to a normal family life. I don't know that much about the breeds involved, so I would like to know if other more knowledgeable people could tell me if it is true that dogs brought up this way cannot alter and learn to live in a different environment?

The same question could be asked of fighting pitbulls that are rescued, a lot of the time I seem to find myself reading accounts of dogs that are put to sleep because they are too dangerous to rehome. What percentage of dogs from such environments are successfully rehabilitated and rehomed? Is it true that the majority are considered to be a danger and a risk that cannot be taken?

I suppose the same question could be asked of seriously abused dogs also..

Is rehabilitation successful? Can a dog forget to do what he has been trained to do for much of his life or forget treatment he has formerly received and go on to lead a completely different life with a new home and family? I have no idea myself, I really want to hear the views and experiences of others!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Louis']snip for space

Is rehabilitation successful? Can a dog forget to do what he has been trained to do for much of his life or forget treatment he has formerly received and go on to lead a completely different life with a new home and family? I have no idea myself, I really want to hear the views and experiences of others!!!!!!!!![/quote]

This is dependent on so many things including age and temperament and early up bringing that a blanket answer cannot really be given.
In general a dog's personality is set in by the time they mature at about 3 years of age. Making really big changes successfully after that is as hard on them as it is on any of us humans who are say past 40 - not impossible for every one but close to that for some.
For the hunting hounds - well housebreaking is an issue in hounds anyway - and kennel dogs with limited exposure to humans living space might well find it difficult to adapt and I don't think you can ever expect they won't follow a trail once taught to. I'm not sure how kind it would be to take a dog used to tons of free running exercise with its friends and lock it up on lead and in an apartment say as the only dog even if it could become housebroken and adapt to house living.
Aggression especially trained fighting is exceptionally hard to get a dog to cease - dogs do what works and once they learn they can bully other dogs and people getting them out of that mode is extremely difficult. When you add in a genetic predisposition for it I'm not sure how safe it is to even try - and just who would want a dog like that? one you could never be quite sure of? too often the kinds of people who want aggressive dogs are not the people who should have them.
I think it is foolish to expect dogs to live by human laws when it comes to chasing things that run from them. I think seeing a pack in full cry is an amazing rousing sight. Same as seeing one tackle a rat or eliminate squirrels and such. I have to say I have not yet seen any evidence that formal hunting has eliminated the fox from the UK.
I also think looking at the species that the foxes are better served by losing the slow and weak and foolish to hounds than simply dying from disease when their population gets to grow unchecked.
As for fighting dogs - that is taking normal canine instinct and selectively breeding for insanity - no normal canine would ever attack to the death a member of the opposite sex unless it were defending new pups and even then it would be a drive it away situation.
No normal canine which has been properly socialized to its species fights even its own sex to the death - that is too hard on the pack to lose members that way - though the pack may kill injured or ill members.
How would you feel walking with your pet dog past dogs that were 'rehabilitated' fighting dogs? How sure would you be of the owner's control? Would muzzling and leashing and confining for life seem like a good life for a dog to you?
Would you blame the dogs from either group if your cat or dog wandered into their yard and was killed?
Saying all that I have rehabilitated biting dogs and placed them in appropriate homes. I have also euthanized dogs that I deemed too dangerous to keep or rehome. Its not an easy choice either way.

[Guest Anonymous]

I really wish they could be saved, but it isnt very possible :cry:
I am againsst dog fighting and hunting dogs. My great uncle has hunting dogs and looses about 1 or 2 a year. I dont think any of his live as long as a normal dog. they are kinda cheap so they dont take them to the vet much. Last summer an older dog who had been abused in the past was very sick and old. He took him to the vet to have him put down, but it cost too much so he took him home and just let him live in pain for a few months before he died. Im not saying my uncle is a bad guy, he is really nice, but just dosent care much for his hunting dogs. The dogs are nice, but they are really wild and proboly couldnt live in a home.
i guess it depends on the intensity of the fighting/hunting/abusing. if a dog hadnt been used that much for fighting, or hasnt hunted that much, or had only been slightly abused it would be easier to rescue.

[Louis]

I think that hunting people [b]can[/b] have a far less sentimental perception of animals than others, as many of their animals are kept for the express purpose of doing a job, in a way, earning their keep. I saw a hound shot in a pro-hunting programme, Very quickly, cleanly and without fuss, because it had no aptitude for the job. I can see the logic in it, but there again it is not the way I view them myself. Whilst I want an end to the hunting- again avoiding the pro/anti hunting arguments- I dread what it would mean for the dogs. Is the foxhound breed itself a poor pet? I saw it described a such in a book. And I can see the point about the enormous contrast- the outdoor life, the exercise, even the type of food would vary enormously...
Actually, Could the whole pack be retrained to chase a scent so they could continue as drag hunters?
So is it the very young 'fighters' that are the ones successfully rehabilitated? Or the 'bait' dogs- I don't even want to ask why they are called that as I think I know.. And what signs are there that you should give up with a dog for those of you that have attempted rehabilitation...

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Louis']I think that hunting people [b]can[/b] have a far less sentimental perception of animals than others, as many of their animals are kept for the express purpose of doing a job, in a way, earning their keep. I saw a hound shot in a pro-hunting programme, Very quickly, cleanly and without fuss, because it had no aptitude for the job. I can see the logic in it, but there again it is not the way I view them myself. Whilst I want an end to the hunting- again avoiding the pro/anti hunting arguments- I dread what it would mean for the dogs. Is the foxhound breed itself a poor pet? I saw it described a such in a book. And I can see the point about the enormous contrast- the outdoor life, the exercise, even the type of food would vary enormously...
Actually, Could the whole pack be retrained to chase a scent so they could continue as drag hunters?
So is it the very young 'fighters' that are the ones successfully rehabilitated? Or the 'bait' dogs- I don't even want to ask why they are called that as I think I know.. And what signs are there that you should give up with a dog for those of you that have attempted rehabilitation...[/quote]

I think its a shame that 'sentimentality' (ie a perverted view of what animals actually are) and Animal Rights nutcases can make even good people support the kinds of folks who think we should not have animals as companions for work as well as pets.
I would never deliberately fight a dog but also would never deny that such a sight does give humans a rush of adrenaline.
I would not in my current living circumstances expect my dogs to hunt for their living but seeing them do so is breathtaking to observe. Pretending that humans are pacifist vegetarians is to my mind as silly as pretending dogs are our companions only and not predators at all.
Can you really justify slaughtering hundreds of dogs (and likely horses too) to end something that just as many people think is OK as think is not OK? Do you think denying the hunting minded that outlet might lead to other things later?
Have you ever seen a hunt? or watched dogs running game? or killing rats?
How is it different from having pride in the cat being a mighty hunter?
Denying the dogs their nature based on a Disney view of the world seems a bit foolish to me. Denying humans their nature seems a bit futile too.

[Louis]

Can I point out that I am not discussing the pro/anti hunt issue cos I know that that could run and run and get seriously nasty, so I am not trotting out my own arguments for my beliefs...
I am generally interested in whether dogs that have been trained and trained to do one thing can switch to a different lifestyle all together, and this is not a debate on what they would choose to do with their lives but of whether they can make the switch if they need to..

[Guest Anonymous]

I dont think hunting with dogs shoud be STOPPED, because many dogs will be killed, but i do think hunters should take better care of their dogs. Most of them dont bother spending money to take their dogs to the vet, but treat them themselves. I dont know how annyone could make them take them, but they do need to take them to the vet if anything was wrong.

[Guest Anonymous]

My dad hunts. Always has, always will. When he used to hunt pheasant, he would take his dog with. Since his dog died, he doesn't hunt pheasant anymore, just deer.

My dad will never get another dog. A) Mom wont let a pet in the house (although, if she wants us to visit, our dogs come with, stay in the house, and sleep with us!). He will never have another outside dog. B) Because of this, Dad's last dog died.

It was a cold winter, and Kip (German Shorthair Pointer) was not going out of his dog house to eat because it was too cold. Dad moved Kip from the outside dog house to a wooden crate in the garage for more warmth. He also would feed him meat scraps from a local butcher/friend to add fat to him. Kip developed a sore on his hind from circling in the wooden crate. Dad took him into the vet (I will say he was good about that!). The vet had to put Kip under to fix this wound, and Kip never came out of it. Not sure of much more than that. I was in 7th grade and Dad is one where if someone dies, you don't talk about it. It hurt him too much when Kip died. His first GSP, Dee Dee died of Pneumonia.

When my sister and her husband got their first (then second and third) lab, Dad was furious. The labs were outside dogs....and he didn't think that was right, anymore at least.

Now, Dad teases me on how spoiled I have my dogs, and how human like I treat them, but I can tell that he's glad that they are treated so well.

I hate hunting, but yes, I understand the need.

My neighbor's GSP is an inside dog. She was also a great hunter at one time. She is his child, and is about 10 now so she doesn't hunt anymore. But she was more a companion to him than a hunting dog.

Now, on the other hand, watching my dogs kill prey is somewhat exciting. I hate to see the other animal die, even if it's a pesky mole, but to see my Kenzo and Kika with that keen sense is amazing.

As a matter of fact, I think they must have killed something last night. They came inside smelling rancid. They have a tendency to roll in things in the back yard and this smell reminded me of a dead creature. Needless to say, they both got baths last night.....

Just my experience with hunting dogs.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='sashagirl']Guest-Is it impossible for you to share your opinion with others without coming across insulting? You don't have a very good way with words... :roll:[/quote]
Do you ever have anything to actually contribute other than spews of venom? What did your little sojourn into attempted flaming add to anyone's thinking process on the issue being discussed?
What is it about uncomfortable questions and differing opinions you find insulting? the inability to come up with an opinion or answer on your own? :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='candybug2002']I dont think hunting with dogs shoud be STOPPED, because many dogs will be killed, but i do think hunters should take better care of their dogs. Most of them dont bother spending money to take their dogs to the vet, but treat them themselves. I dont know how annyone could make them take them, but they do need to take them to the vet if anything was wrong.[/quote]

I think that is a rather sweeping view on hunters and their care of hunting dogs that isn't neccessarially accurate. Many take very good care of their dogs - after all they often make a serious investment in time and money to make the dogs into good hunting partners.
Many owners of multiple dogs learn to do things at home that pet owners might run to the vet to have handled. That is not necessarially an indication of poor care - could be simply an experienced dog person.
As I am a half hour drive from the vet and 45 minutes from the emergency clinic that is open nights and weekends - I have a pretty large amount of first aid knowledge in doggy issues and often just take care of something at home and only head to the vet if needed after that intial care is done. More than once my first aid knowledge meant my dog lived long enough to get to the emergency vet for the rest of the needed care - think bee stings and anaphylactic shock for an example.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ah, home first aid. I wouldn't be without my trusty bottle of peroxide and my little tube of superglue. I've patched so many cuts with superglue... vet says by now he couldn't do it better. :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]Ah, home first aid. I wouldn't be without my trusty bottle of peroxide and my little tube of superglue. I've patched so many cuts with superglue... vet says by now he couldn't do it better. [/quote]

Doesn't that poison the dog!! Wow. Obviously it doesn't or I'm sure you wouldn't do it, but Holy Cow!

[Guest Anonymous]

Kgnite, it's what many vets use to secure cuts instead of sutures. Maybe I wouldn't be so comfortable with it if I didn't see it on a nearly daily basis in the clinic, but it has worked for me wonderfully to secure cuts during "after hours." I also use this on myself, by the way, for cuts that might be considered for suturing and have never once had any kind of infection set in (myself or my dogs). This was just in reference to what guest was saying about many people who own lots of dogs improvising until a vet could be seen. I'd never advocate patching up your own dog INSTEAD of seeing a vet.

Of course, I'm also not talking large, gaping wounds, or trying to glue a severed limb back together. :-?

I'll bet I've opened a whoooooole new can of worms and am probably going to find out that I'm the ooooooooonliest person on the whole earth who superglues cuts (after boiling out with peroxide). Bad owner! Bad baaaaaaad owner! :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='candybug2002']I dont think hunting with dogs shoud be STOPPED, because many dogs will be killed, but i do think hunters should take better care of their dogs. Most of them dont bother spending money to take their dogs to the vet, but treat them themselves. I dont know how annyone could make them take them, but they do need to take them to the vet if anything was wrong.[/quote]

I think that is a rather sweeping view on hunters and their care of hunting dogs that isn't neccessarially accurate. Many take very good care of their dogs - after all they often make a serious investment in time and money to make the dogs into good hunting partners.
Many owners of multiple dogs learn to do things at home that pet owners might run to the vet to have handled. That is not necessarially an indication of poor care - could be simply an experienced dog person.
As I am a half hour drive from the vet and 45 minutes from the emergency clinic that is open nights and weekends - I have a pretty large amount of first aid knowledge in doggy issues and often just take care of something at home and only head to the vet if needed after that intial care is done. More than once my first aid knowledge meant my dog lived long enough to get to the emergency vet for the rest of the needed care - think bee stings and anaphylactic shock for an example.[/quote]

I know many do take good care of them but some dont. i know many know about dogs and care, but sometimes it is neccesarry to take them to the vet.

[gooeydog]

They can be rehabilitated, but you have to have realistic expectations, too. For example, I wouldn't expect a trained hunting dog to coexist with a pet rabbit (or any small prey type animal), nor would I expect a trained fighting dog to get along with dogs (and other animals). They might, but it's not the "rule". I think each individual dog would have to be evaluated, and then found appropriate homes, or euthanized. Many of the hunting/fighting dogs would need homes willing to deal with their "issues", and since there are enough homeless dogs out there without "issues", it might be hard to find homes for the hunting/fighting dogs. A lot of people wouldn't want to have to take the extra precautions that would be necessary, so there would have to be some sort of screening process in order to ensure good homes for the dogs. That's not to say that it's not worth it, but that it can turn out to be a lot of work for both the "rescuer", and the owner. I have an ex-fighting dog, she was fought and badly abused when she was a pup (we got her at approx. 6-8 months), and though it has sometimes been a struggle to deal with her problems, the rewards of having her around far outweigh the problems :wink: I really think it depends on the individual dog, owners, and situation.

[gooeydog]

The people involved with the dog(s) need to keep in mind that animal aggression and human aggression are two different traits, and are not in any way the same. Just because a dog is animal/dog aggressive, the person shouldn't assume that it is also human aggressive. :)

[Louis]

Yes I think that's true. Are all ex-racing greyhounds a risk with cats and other small animals? So many of these dogs are in need of care when their racing days are over. It [i]seems[/i] that most may be a continual risk because they are trained to chase after small animals all their lives- can anyone tell me of success in training this out of them, or at least to a point where they can be checked? How's it done!?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Louis']Yes I think that's true. Are all ex-racing greyhounds a risk with cats and other small animals? So many of these dogs are in need of care when their racing days are over. It [i]seems[/i] that most may be a continual risk because they are trained to chase after small animals all their lives- can anyone tell me of success in training this out of them, or at least to a point where they can be checked? How's it done!?[/quote]

A good greyhound rescue temperament tests and personality screens the dogs so as to match them with the best homes possible. The ones with serious prey drives who react to the 'test' cats and dogs would not be placed in homes where small dogs and cats already live for example.
Some of the greyhound rescues are not this careful but the good ones are.
Remember too that greyhounds at least the racing ones I've seen here are accustomed to schedules for potty time and play and work and feeding, are crate and kennel trained, are accustomed to being handled by people both familiar and strange, interacting in a non aggressive manner with other greyhounds and traveling by car or truck, leash trained etc They chase an artificial lure not a live one though I know some are reputed to be trained on live lures.
A big difference from a fighting dog in terms of their interactions with other dogs and animals and a big difference from hounds kept in a kennel and run on trails for exercise and to catch live prey.