Line Breeding

[Aroura]

Could anyone explain to me exactly what line breeding is? :roll:

[avaloniaboerboele]

Described in a few words it means that you use the mother or father or grandmother/father from both with the children in your breeding program.

You can put the daughter with grandpa from mother and keep on doing for a generation or two - or son with great grandma etc.

Hope this helped a bit because it can get very tricky / scientifically

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura']Could anyone explain to me exactly what line breeding is? :roll:[/quote]

Line breeding is inbreeding for the faint of heart :wink: or so claims one of my books on genetics and dog breeding
The goal of line breeding is to line up the genes so as to have all the best traits available in the next generation. To do that one breeds in such a manner as to be most likely to pile those best genes up in all your dogs so that when the DNA splits each side of the strand has equally good line ups of genes to pass on to the pups.
check out this site for some good info on the subject
[url]http://www.dachshund-dca.org/articles/Standard_Book_of_Dog_Breed.html[/url]
a quote from it is
"A line bred foundation bitch will have a better chance of reproducing her own visible physical traits (phenotype) because there is a greater concentration of the genetic make up which embodies those traits in her pedigree. No matter how beautiful she may be, a bitch which is the product of an outcross (i.e., there is no degree of relationship between this bitch's sire and dam) is generally worthless from a breeding point of view"
and this one is a good one too
[url]http://home.flash.net/~dby/practicalgen.htm[/url]

to research this for you to have some sites to see I went to [url]www.dogpile.com[/url] (a meta search engine) and put in linebreeding defintion dog (without the dog added you get info on all kinds of things that are linebred commonly)

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='"Anonymous"www.dogpile.com (a meta search engine) and put in linebreeding defintion dog (without the dog added you get info on all kinds of things that are linebred commonly)[/quote']

EXCEPT I spelled definition correctly when I did it :oops:

[ShadyLady]

:o An old quote for you"If you cross related dogs and it works okay it is called line breeding on the other hand if it doesnt work they call it inbreed"
They quite often do it too hopefully double up on the best genes but often it can bring out the bad genes that were laying dormant it also seems to reduce the size of the dog

[GSDmom]

If you are going to breed, then research and linebreeding is the safest way to go. Plus, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES!!!!! I can not emphasize this enough. It takes someone who really knows what they are doing to outcross or inbreed.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='GSDmom']If you are going to breed, then research and linebreeding is the safest way to go. Plus, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES!!!!! I can not emphasize this enough. It takes someone who really knows what they are doing to outcross or inbreed.[/quote]
You can know the pedigrees inside and out and if you don't know the dogs that go with the names and how to see their good and bad points properly nothing will be accomplished. :wink:

[GSDmom]

In those cases hopefully you are dealing with honest people who can assess the dog for you. Talk to the breeders if possible, references, owners of other related dogs in the line. You can never know enough about the pedigree IMHO! You not only want to find out about the dogs, but their siblings and other progeny. Which lines did they cross well with, which ones not so well with. Are there ANY poor temperments (from experience, temperment can skip at least 6 generations). ANY health problems, exc. At least with linebreedings, you can expect a little more consistancy than with outcrosses. Too bad sometimes it's the bad things that are consistant! My advise with linebreeding is to study dogs in your dogs pedigree, good and bad traits and decide which traits you want to reproduce. Then find the line that reproduces it and linebreed on a dog at least 3 generations back. So it would be something like 3,3 on the pups. Make sure the bitch has a strong motherline known for reproducing quality.
Hope I didn't go into too much here, sorry if I did :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi,
I have done linebreeding twice now..I breed my female to her half brother and then breed her again to his brother.. In that litter there was 9 pups and 5 of them where excellent in comformation,movement and temperment,I did keep a female out of that litter and she is stunning.The second time I did it I got 15 pups and out of 15,9 of them where awesome..Out of that breeding I kept 2 males and they are excellent in everyway,but before I did that breeding I talked to a lot of diffrent breeders that knew the dogs in my lines and had seen them first hand to know what there good and bad points where..I had to make sure I could weigh them out so the bad ones did not get the stronger gene in the pups..I had a really hard time to decide what I was going to do,but I finally decided to do it because there was one dog in my pedigree that I really wanted to double up on.And you know what I am glad I did it as I produced some excellent pups,but remember not everybody is as lucky as me not even the experienced breeder..


Anyway I would recommend linebreeding if you know what you are doing..Have you studied the pedigrees to see which faults the dogs have generations back..I only ask that because those faults can come back out and bite you in the bum later..If it is faults like bad toplines,fronts,rear ends or movement, it will take generations and generations to get rid of..The breeders that had the faults in your lines in the first place worked long and hard to get them out,so remember just because your dog is an excellent example of the breed does not mean her whole pedigree is..You have to really know what you are doing before you breed like that..

If you anybody would like they can go to my webpage and see what I have produced when I linebred..The male on my home page is a half/brother sister breeding from the 15 pup litter, I could not have asked for a better dog when he was born..I really hope I helped you out with your question... :roll:

[url]http://www.vaccarorotts.freeservers.com[/url]

[ShadyLady]

I cant believe what I just read GSD Mum says line breeding is the best way to go.Every breed carries genetic defects alot of the times these arent visible and are not about conformation .My breed carries a color defect which causes blindness and deafness and the puppies have to be destroyed by line breeding I am increasing the chances of doubling this gene .I think as a breeder there are plenty of good dogs out there and with research you could find a QUALITY likeminded breeder and cross with their dogs[/quote] In other breeds it might be hip dysplasia or other such things

[Aroura]

Thanks everyone. I'm keeping in contact with some of the top Boxer breeders in Australia. If I decide to breed I don't think I will need to line breed, she has a good pedigree with alot of great ch. in her lines, but I think I can get equally good pups from breeding her out to a dog that will complement any faults she has (eg, plain colour). I'm also keeping in contact with her breeder, so by the time she is old enough to breed I think I will be able to find the best to suited to her. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='working koolie']I cant believe what I just read GSD Mum says line breeding is the best way to go.Every breed carries genetic defects alot of the times these arent visible and are not about conformation .My breed carries a color defect which causes blindness and deafness and the puppies have to be destroyed by line breeding I am increasing the chances of doubling this gene .I think as a breeder there are plenty of good dogs out there and with research you could find a QUALITY likeminded breeder and cross with their dogs[/quote] In other breeds it might be hip dysplasia or other such things[/quote]

If you know so little about breeding as the above statements show you probably should not be breeding until you increase your education on the subject.
Line breeding *is* the way to go and outcrossing is like not even having a breeding program at all. One should be thinking at least 3 generations down the road before deciding to breed a litter - thats right think three generations ahead of this litter and what you plan to do in each breeding along the to get what you want.
The color defect sounds like a recessive - if you know which dogs carry it and which don't you can eliminate it from your breeding program based on what you said above by careful line breeding to get what you want. Using random outcrosses as you stated means you will never know when the problem will show up.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='working koolie']:o An old quote for you"If you cross related dogs and it works okay it is called line breeding on the other hand if it doesnt work they call it inbreed"
They quite often do it too hopefully double up on the best genes but often it can bring out the bad genes that were laying dormant it also seems to reduce the size of the dog[/quote]

Its all called line breeding and you do it to find the hidden problems and eliminate them from your breeding program as well as to increase the chances of lining up the positive attributes in the next generation.
Inbreeding is a more intense version of line breeding where you find the problems as well as the positive traits in a lot fewer generations.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='GSDmom']In those cases hopefully you are dealing with honest people who can assess the dog for you. Talk to the breeders if possible, references, owners of other related dogs in the line. You can never know enough about the pedigree IMHO! You not only want to find out about the dogs, but their siblings and other progeny. Which lines did they cross well with, which ones not so well with. Are there ANY poor temperments (from experience, temperment can skip at least 6 generations). ANY health problems, exc. At least with linebreedings, you can expect a little more consistancy than with outcrosses. Too bad sometimes it's the bad things that are consistant! My advise with linebreeding is to study dogs in your dogs pedigree, good and bad traits and decide which traits you want to reproduce. Then find the line that reproduces it and linebreed on a dog at least 3 generations back. So it would be something like 3,3 on the pups. Make sure the b**** has a strong motherline known for reproducing quality.
Hope I didn't go into too much here, sorry if I did :wink:[/quote]

A lucky day for you when you find a breeder who will admit to flaws in the lines you are researching! :wink: Nothing like a prepotend stud to mess up your calculations though - thats when you really know you have the genes lined up with all dominant characteristics (good or bad!) in the male!
As for the bitch - the bitch is important on two counts - one for her conformation and secondly twice over for her temperament as the pups tend to learn from the moment they are born how to mimic the dam's reactions to everything!
Are you familiar with Dr Carmen Battaglia's book on breeding better dogs? He has a rather neat notation set up for tracking the attributes down the generations including siblings etc to help you when you look back at a pedigree. I've been to some of his seminars - great speaker!
Oh and for the moderator - the fact that you find the technical term for a female dog objectionable makes me think you are not a dog person at all.
A female dog is a bitch and a male dog is a stud in ANY real dog person's lexicon. The fact you seem to feel the need to **** the words out on a dog discussion board seems ludicrous!

[Aroura]

I think that the ***'s are put there by the site, not the moderaters...
I could be wrong :-?

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi,
Just for the record alot of top breeders have linebred and alot closer then I have..And also all the pups that where sold in my litter where all fixed before they went to there new homes,so nobody could use them for breeding...

And do not tell me I do not know nothing about breeding I have been doing it for 10 years and I have gotten nothing but the best out of my litters when I have linebred,so I guess only somebody that has done it and did not have success when they did do it has something rude to say like all you sad people do..

I have done it twice and will do it again to get the best that I can out of my line..I resent all you snobby people that think you know it all,but remember a big mouth is a sign of just how ignorant you really are..

And I still think if you want to linebreed it is ok, if you study the predigree's and know what the faults where on the dogs generation's and generation's back in your pedigree..Remeber alot of the top dogs where produced by linebreeding or even interbreeding..

Anyway this bitch that knows nothing about her dogs and there pedigree's is done talking.. :evil:

[GSDmom]

Rottie, I don't think anyone disagrees with you except working koolie. Most of us are all for linebreeding. If you study your dogs, know what they have produced (not just your dog, but as many siblings and relatives as possible) know the good and bad then you have the best chance of producing good dogs with concistancy and can plan future breedings as well if everything goes as planned. :wink:

[ShadyLady]

Firstly I am not against linebreeding I have in fact done it myself .I felt the advise flying around was yeah go for it .I know that alot of breeders would not be addmitting the faults of their dogs outright and before you start yelling and screaming at me lets face it their are some people out there that will stretch the truth a little . When someone asks the question what is linebreeding it suggests to me that it is irrisponsible to say yeah its the only way to go. When really both sides of the coin should be looked at if it is possible to outcross to a quality stud (with research) then why would you not take this option as you are improving the overall of the breed by creating more quality lines for future to breed from .Aroura
I think you made a good choice to befreind a person with experience and quality dogs to outcross to I also befriend an old guy who has be breeding my breed of dogs since 1963 and he has taught me heaps about breeding.

[GSDmom]

I'm not saying linebreeding is the ONLY way to go, only just that it is the best when starting out. That way you can have a better idea what you are going to get (there still might be surprises). :wink: When you do a total outcross, You really don't have too much of an idea what you will get unless you know that the 2 lines have been crossed before and saw the results.
Having a mentor who is experienced in the breed and produces what you want to produce is the BEST way to learn about breeding and the breed like working koolie said. They can help you study lines and give a more objective opinion on the pedigree to help you make the best decision for your girl. Good Luck! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='working koolie']Firstly I am not against linebreeding I have in fact done it myself .I felt the advise flying around was yeah go for it .I know that alot of breeders would not be addmitting the faults of their dogs outright and before you start yelling and screaming at me lets face it their are some people out there that will stretch the truth a little . When someone asks the question what is linebreeding it suggests to me that it is irrisponsible to say yeah its the only way to go. When really both sides of the coin should be looked at if it is possible to outcross to a quality stud (with research) then why would you not take this option as you are improving the overall of the breed by creating more quality lines for future to breed from .Aroura
I think you made a good choice to befreind a person with experience and quality dogs to outcross to I also befriend an old guy who has be breeding my breed of dogs since 1963 and he has taught me heaps about breeding.[/quote]

How on earth would a novice know what outcross would work if they don't know anything about lines or breeding?I think its irresponsible to advocate outcrossing over linebreeding as the likelihood of getting any quality in the litter at all diminishes with random outcrossing.

[Aroura]

Guest, I may be a novice, but the lady who bred Lily certainly was not and the kennels I am looking at to use a stud dog from are some of THE best kennels in Australia. You can't shoot off and say 'line breed, line breed, line breed' to everyone, because if all the dogs ever bred were line bred we'd be looking at some pretty hefty mutations!
Linebreeding may be the way to go in some cases, but certainly not all.
Just because I am a novice doesn't mean I'm not going to look into things before I do them and produce bad pups!

[ShadyLady]

To the last guest,
I did not suggest RANDOMLY outcrossing I suggested outcrossing with other quality dogs from a reputable breeder who has no doubt more experience than a novice breeder anyway and can be of great assistance with advice on whelping and rearing healthy pups.Did you not see the word RESEARCH mentioned in my last post ? I dont know if your the last guest I spoke to but either way I will not be responding to this anymore

[sixjollydogs]

:x I have no idea if dogs should be line bred or not. I do know that I tend to have little respect for those who feel that cyber-yelling, anger and
name calling makes their argument stronger.

It just makes we wonder why someone doesn't use the space here to spell out their positions instead of resorting to calling someone a bitch.
(and why is this type of personal attack NOT deleted?)

[sixjollydogs]

:o Ok... do have a question about line-breeding. As noted earlier...I know NOTHING about it...all my furkids are "mutts"...and loved just as much as if they had just won Crufts....now hee is the question.

1. When you line-breed aren't you increasing the problems of genetic issues...matching recessive traits ...?

2. When you say line-breeding...what do you mean...how close...immediate family, the doggie equivelent of cousins ....????

Just wondering and would like to learn.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='sixjollydogs']:o Ok... do have a question about line-breeding. As noted earlier...I know NOTHING about it...all my furkids are "mutts"...and loved just as much as if they had just won Crufts....now hee is the question.

1. When you line-breed aren't you increasing the problems of genetic issues...matching recessive traits ...?

2. When you say line-breeding...what do you mean...how close...immediate family, the doggie equivelent of cousins ....????

Just wondering and would like to learn.[/quote]
1) No you are decreasing them if you know what you are doing
2) linebreeding varies 'uncle' to 'niece' breeding dogs with one grandparent (preferably a good one!) in common, breeding mother/son and daughter/father is also line breeding of the type called inbreeding
breeding cousins with more than one grandparent in common etc

some reading for anyone who might want to know what they are doing
George Padgett CONTROL OF CANINE GENETIC DISEASES
Carmen Battaglia Breeding Better Dogs
and Patricia Wilkie FUTURE DOG: BREEDING FOR GENETIC SOUNDNESS
a video Pat & Bob Hastings PUPPY PUZZLE: EVALUATING STRUCTURAL QUALITY
ought to give the unknowledgeable here a good head start on missing the making of errors most novices make including the 'breed to the top dog' error and the always outcross thoughts etc
the top dog and top kennel thing always floors me - don't novices ever listen to the breed history and how the time everyone bred to dog such and such has spread through the breed a serious genetic problem its nearly impossible to breed away from due to the use of 'top dogs'?